#indiewebcamp 2015-11-03

2015-11-03 UTC
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tantek.com edited /2015/MIT/Guest_List (+0) "update counts :)" (view diff)
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tantek starts cloning/clearing from /2015/MIT to /2015/SF :)
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tantek hopes to benefit from ben_thatmustbeme's work in updating /2015/MIT to modern IWC practices :)
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tantek.com created /2015/SF/Guest_List (+4293) "clone from /2015/MIT/Guest_List and clear/replace appropriate details" (view diff)
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tantek IndieWebCamp SF guest list page now setup! Go add yourselves participants! (aaronpk rhiaro kevinmarks kylewm snarfed) https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF/Guest_List
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tantek.com edited /2015/SF (+61) "RSVP vs other URLs - similar to MIT" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+585) "/* Participants */ rsvp" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+350) "/* Participants */ woo!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */ counts" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: do you want to do ti.to or eventbrite tickets for IWC SF?
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tantek let's do Eventbrite because I think (based on purely guessing) that it will notify more people "in our networks" that it is going on and that we've signed up to go to it
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tantek I don't think tito does that
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tantek tito is likely good to lower the barrier for sign-up for people who don't have a domain, yet one of our challenges is getting better about getting the word out
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tantek so hence leaning towards Eventbrite - make sense?
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aaronpk yeah!
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tantek ok - I used to do eventbrite events for my workshops - pretty sure I can still create them :)
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aaronpk maybe we can do indieweb workshops soon :)
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tantek I think that's a great idea for /business-models for folks in the community - especially those who have setup their own site to run with as little hassle as possible.
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tantek In particular, given that there are whole businesses and independents who make money from setting up WordPress for businesses, I bet there is similar opportunity for someone to do so with setting up Known for businesses.
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andicascadesf Hello
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andicascadesf Hello @tantek.
lukebrooker, nitot, loic_m, cweiske, opyate, tantek, Jihaisse, friedcell, fkooman, tvn, e-lima, petermolnar, Yilmaz_Erkan, friedcell1, j12t, Erkan_Yilmaz, nitot_, elf-pavlik, mlncn, hs0ucy, rhiaro_, ShaneHudson, Zegnat, squeakytoy and singpolyma joined the channel
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GWG Morning
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[shaners] Morning y’all! (from Georgia, US in EST)
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Loqi [shaners]: tantek left you a message 1 day, 6 hours ago: the reason I asked (and brought it up) is because in reading the CoC presuming good intentions, I have difficulty seeing anything explicitly against the letter of what it's stating. Hence looking for more intuitive/gut guidance what is the "right" thing to do, and how we can encourage that in CoC. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-02/line/1446451547265
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aaronpk gooooood morning
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aaronpk hmm there is $0.14 less on my google app engine free trial balance but i don't know why
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kevinmarks and twitter just went form star to heart
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aaronpk whoaaaaa
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/chachasikes/status/661572949690880000
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@chachasikes .@twitter I cannot click on the new heart icon. A star was appropriately less emotional, which is great because twitter is so public. (twitter.com/_/status/661572949690880000)
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KartikPrabhu they also switched from "favourites" to "likes"
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KartikPrabhu retroactively
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KartikPrabhu so all your favs are now likes
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singpolyma I always interpreted favs as likes on twitter
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KartikPrabhu people use them for bookmarks, to-read-later
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KartikPrabhu also "liking" a not happy tweet is weird as it is on FB
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aaronpk i wonder why they changed it
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kevinmarks someone read "30% increase in engagement" here http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670890/how-airbnb-evolved-to-focus-on-social-rather-than-searches
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KartikPrabhu https://blog.twitter.com/2015/hearts-on-twitter
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@kevinmarks todo: rewrite http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite and http://indiewebcamp.com/like ; #socialWG call on representing activities; react with nuance in @SlackHQ (twitter.com/_/status/661575899645480960)
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/Vahid/status/661576855527403520
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@Vahid دیگه #توییتر #فیوریت نداره Ùˆ نمیشه #فیو کرد ستاره قلب شده باید #لایک زد شما کدوم رو ترجیح Ù…ÛŒ”ŒØ¯ÛŒÙ†ØŸ: #نظرسنجی @twitter (twitter.com/_/status/661576855527403520)
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kevinmarks https://blog.twitter.com/2015/hearts-for-developers
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kevinmarks ouch https://twitter.com/SirGoldenrod/status/661570320394903552
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@SirGoldenrod Twitter: "We need to make this less trash" Everyone: "Take harassment seriously. Take harassment seriously." Twitter: "Let's add hearts" (twitter.com/_/status/661570320394903552)
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KartikPrabhu much of such criticism is pretty unfair
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KartikPrabhu we don't know that Twitter is not working on harrassment
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KartikPrabhu releasing hearts != not working on other things
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singpolyma KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 122 karma
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kylewm https://twitter.com/anildash/status/651021476062171136
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@anildash Twitter biggest recent progress? Going from being one of the worst at dealing with harassment, to one of the best. Still *a lot* more to do. (twitter.com/_/status/651021476062171136)
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KartikPrabhu but how can that be!? they just put hearts
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KartikPrabhu stops with the snark
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kylewm I do think the criticism of a heart as "a symbol of romantic love" is well made though... more creep-factor than stars
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kylewm ref: https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/661573150883344385
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@saladinahmed twitter you have a problem with harassment WHAT IF WE FORCED WOMEN TO MARK TWEETS USING AN ICON REPRESENTING ROMANTIC LOVE WOULD THAT HELP (twitter.com/_/status/661573150883344385)
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singpolyma They claim the heart transcends culture, but of course that's a terribly eurocentric thing to think
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KartikPrabhu hates needless captitalisations
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KartikPrabhu I have more of a problem with the "like" terminology than the heart icon
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aaronpk wasn't it called "favorite" before?
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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aaronpk oh you mean the new "like = heart" issue
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singpolyma "like", "favourite", "friend" -- "social media" -- companies are just not good at English. people seem to get used to it
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KartikPrabhu at any rate, this is not a problem/issue I am deeply invested in so...
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kevinmarks interesting https://storify.com/TheREALjm3/conversation-with-sarahmei-and-wycats
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KartikPrabhu wonders if tantek and cassis disagree
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-11-10-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "HWC Edi 2015-11-10" (view diff)
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-11-17-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> = <span class="p-name summary">Homebrew Website Club Meetup</span> = == Details == === When === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">..."" (view diff)
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tbrb I'm being organised for once
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aaronpk \o/
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-11-24-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "HWC Edi 2015-11-24" (view diff)
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-12-01-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "HWC Edi 2015-12-01" (view diff)
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-12-08-homebrew-website-club (+2256) "HWC Edi 2015-12-08 (Last Edi of 2015)" (view diff)
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+270) "Add HWC Edis til end of 2015" (view diff)
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /Events (+4094) "/* Upcoming */ HWC Edi until end of 2015" (view diff)
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kylewm having a little bit of a moral dilemma, I want to change my CMS kind of radically but don't want to worry about breaking it for my 2-3 users (at least until I figure out if my changes are good or bad)
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kylewm should i make an experimental fork/branch, a new project, go closed source??
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aaronpk i'm about to do the same with Monocle
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aaronpk "about" heh. after I launch my new site anyway.
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kylewm what do you think of me moving Red Wind to a different section of /projects?
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tantek kylewm: a radical change sounds like a new project :)
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tantek you could declare success on Red Wind, and put it in maintenance mode
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davidpeach I got my hand-coded flickr syndication to work! yayy. Will write up and share
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aaronpk congrats!
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davidpeach tankyou
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kylewm davidpeach: oauth1 implemented?
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davidpeach I very nearly used that library, but as I was already 2 steps into auth process I thought, what the heck
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aaronpk wow
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davidpeach yer kylewm
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davidpeach http://davidpea.ch/notes/1716
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kylewm wow, I tried really hard to do that when I first started workign with twitter and eventually gave up
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@rabble @kevinmarks It makes me question my own ideological commitment to the indieweb that i can't keep my own personal sites in order. (twitter.com/_/status/661613265236066304)
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kylewm davidpeach: got a 500 error for that page
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@kevinmarks @rabble we should add you as an example to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/661613342365081601)
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davidpeach yer twitter I used guzzle. but with flickr i needed to do the whole create token request the have to be redirected to manually accept permissions page. So I thought Id give it a shot.
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davidpeach ahh
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davidpeach sec
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davidpeach my bad - was setting them to private for testing.
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davidpeach all sorted
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davidpeach heh
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davidpeach mind you it only posts an image. It doesnt interact with flickr in any fancy way.
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kylewm tantek: re new project, thanks that's v helpful
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kylewm iirc oauth1 for a multi-part post was specifically the part i had trouble implementing by hand, so it's still impressive :)
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davidpeach thank you.
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tantek kylewm: yeah! just means you need a new project name :)
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[snarfed] what is jf2?
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[snarfed] aaronpk?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "jf2" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105t
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aaronpk jf2 is a working prototype of an alternate JSON serialization of Microformats. http://microformats.org/wiki/jf2
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loqi.me created /jf2 (+138) "prompted by [snarfed] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-03/line/1446576864503 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek aaronpk: ok to indicate stronger that its an even simpler alternate, not just an alternate
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aaronparecki.com edited /jf2 (+392) ""simpler". add example." (view diff)
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kylewm what's jf2's disposition toward AS2.0? indelicately, why not spend that time improving AS2
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tantek kylewm: it's like solving a maze from both sides
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kevinmarks calling for explicit like posts on twitter https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661603205533470720
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@kevinmarks Suggestion: if you still want to star tweets, reply to them with just a 🌟 emoji. (twitter.com/_/status/661603205533470720)
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tantek kylewm: sometimes a change is so radical it's quicker to show what the end result would/should look like rather than attempt to argue every change there iteratively
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tantek that being said, AS2 is also shrinking which is good
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kevinmarks or would an explicit like post be a star and a link, which twitter would render as a star above the tweet being starred?
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tantek kylewm: in addition, it looks like jf2 will satisfy the 80/20, and then I'd expect that *someone* might develop a jf2->as2 proxy for folks that really want to go to the extra work of consuming as2
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tantek while publishing jf2 will be easier fo publishers
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tantek (easier for consuming code too - but that seems to be what's being debated?)
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singpolyma even easier to skip the JSON and publish microformats (or mf2, I guess, in this community) ;)
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davidpeach anybody know why bridgy wouldnt be able to see webmention endpoints for flickr?
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davidpeach works okay for twitter
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Loqi [bridgy] rabble replied '@kevinmarks Yeah well Pio.io will be built with flat files and folders instead of a database.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661613521025658880)
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kylewm davidpeach: not sure what you mean?
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davidpeach so i added a comment to my test post on flickr. And bridgy has found it fine and has it in my bridggy dashboard, but it cant find a webmention endpoint it says.
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tantek singpolyma: correct. easiest for publishers is to publish mf2 which has a defined parsing model to jf2, which then API consuming code can trivially use
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singpolyma tantek: why not have "API consuming code" use mf2 directly?
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tantek singpolyma: good question - I think the wide demographic of webdevs writing JSON-consuming code are doing so because it is the current fashion.
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aaronpk the current thinking is to link to the jf2 URL with a rel value. that lets you offload that conversion to a separate thing, like how pin13.net/mf2 works
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aaronpk singpolyma: yeah from what I can tell, some people are terrified of consuming mf2 because they think it's "scraping html"
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singpolyma Yeah, ok. So, JSON is fashionable basically is the reason. Ok
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kylewm tantek: I do see where you're coming from. To be honest, it feels a little NIH-y to me :/
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aaronpk kylewm: it really is an attempt to solve it from both sides
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tantek wow on this thread: https://twitter.com/rabble/status/661613521025658880
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@rabble @kevinmarks Yeah well Pio.io will be built with flat files and folders instead of a database. (twitter.com/_/status/661613521025658880)
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voxpelli Consuming JSON is much easier than parsing HTML, even if HTML parsing has become lots easier over the years
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tantek kevinmarks: really do hope you capture that on /database-antipattern - Rabble is quite well known to be quite the clever guy
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aaronpk also right now it's sufficient as a simpler representation than the current mf2 json, since it doesn't require every value is an array
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davidpeach ahh may be my url
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kylewm davidpeach: I'll have a look at the Flickr/Bridgy issue, seems similar to KevinMarks issue yesterday, maybe I misdiagnosed
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tantek voxpelli: does it matter if you're using an off the shelf mf2->json parsing library?
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davidpeach kylewm: I just noticed that my syndication link on my site points to the flickr url with my username in it
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voxpelli tantek: I'm imaging me trying to convince an iOS developer to do that, I would be surprised if I succeeded
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davidpeach gonna try with id in place of name
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tantek kylewm: depends on perspective. jf2 is much closer to the JSON return values from various silo APIs - if anything, jf2 is *less* revinvention, but rather based on existing JSON API patterns.
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tantek and existing JSON API patterns deployed in the wild have far more webdev implementation/community "weight" than W3C working drafts
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kylewm that is very handwavey!
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singpolyma kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 255 karma
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kevinmarks do iOS devs like JSON?
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davidpeach kylewm hmm still no work with id in place of name in url
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voxpelli kevinmarks: nowadays I think so
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kylewm anyway, solving it from both sides; that does make sense. if the goal is to experiment to inform the development of a unified standard then i'm all for it
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aaronpk kevinmarks: yes from what i've seen JSON is the preferred transport for iOS apps to APIs
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singpolyma kevinmarks: the ones I work with do. because it's what they're "used to" (read: it's popular)
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kevinmarks just wondering if they would prefer plists
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[snarfed] davidpeach: we want to support both (all!) syndication URL formats
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singpolyma most ios people I know hate plists
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voxpelli It's good to have a standardized parsed output, but raw mf2 will probably always be preferable when it's possible
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kevinmarks heh
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kevinmarks I hate plists, but I'm not really an ios person
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snarfed davidpeach: feel free to switch the synd url, but we'd like to also debug the synd url with username, since that one should work too
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singpolyma kevinmarks: I don't see any reason to hate plists (other than "they're not JSON"), but also certainly no reason to favour them
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kylewm snarfed++ being able to type brid.gy/flickr/[person's name] is the best new bridgy feature in a while!
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singpolyma generic formats (JSON, YAML, plist, etc) all see weird to me
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Loqi snarfed has 159 karma
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GWG Favorites became likes? Stars are hearts?
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snarfed heh good!
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davidpeach snarfed: username is back on my site syndication url, pointing to flickr
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snarfed singpolyma: including html/xml? :P
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GWG Wrapping mind around it.
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davidpeach apologies if it's something ive done.
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singpolyma snarfed: xml, understood properly, is more than just a generic format. it's a way to combine different specialised formats togther in a way that will let consumers that understand both benefit from the features of both
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snarfed not at all. it's always on us to make it work, however you use it, if at all possible
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snarfed demurs
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singpolyma so, I at least, find xml a bit more "solves a problem" than, say, JSON
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kevinmarks I see that the other way round
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aaronpk JSON is a perfectly fine serialization format
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kevinmarks JSON has a very clear mapping into coding friendly data strutures
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kevinmarks XML doesn't
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kevinmarks if your language has native lists and dictionaries, it's a no-brainer
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aaronpk trying to consume XML in code has always been a challenge. the fact that JSON just turns into simple native objects is great
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kevinmarks if it doesn't it's less obvious
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kevinmarks does JSON turn into simple native objects in ObjC or Swift?
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tantek kevinmarks: do 2D arrays in JSON have a very clear mapping into coding friendly data strutures?
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davidpeach snarfed: if you'd like me to do anything to help debug just let me know
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aaronpk tantek: yes, just an array of arrays
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aaronpk [[1,2],[3,4]] in PHP is <?php array(array(1,2,),array(3,4)) ?> or in new PHP syntax, exactly like JSON!
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kevinmarks they do in python, js, ruby and PHP up to a point
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aaronpk (oops ignore extra comma there)
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tantek aaronpk, kevinmarks then in that case, it seems like JSONLD *breaks* that aspect/feature of JSON
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kevinmarks PHP having the fun 'is it a dictionary or list game where you can change it by assignment
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aaronpk yes it's absolutely silly that json-ld can't do arrays of arrays
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aaronpk see also: https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld/issues/32
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kevinmarks so, not well in Swift by default http://www.raywenderlich.com/82706/working-with-json-in-swift-tutorial
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aaronpk kevinmarks: weird, i thought i've seen better code than that
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kevinmarks well, it is a library thta makes it easier
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aaronpk no, like foo["bar"]!["bar"]!
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aaronpk the ! makes it stop if it's not there
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kevinmarks and so some extent you have the problme in python where you get exceptions if some keys in the path aren't there
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kevinmarks ! or ?
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aaronpk let me check. i'm still learning swift.
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tantek.com edited /2015/MIT/Guest_List (-2) "put TOC at bottom for easy linking to headings" (view diff)
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kevinmarks if let johnsStreet = john.residence?.address?.street { print("John's street name is \(johnsStreet).") } else { print("Unable to retrieve the address.") }
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kevinmarks it's called 'optional chaining' which is a neat language feature
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kevinmarks hm, re geo as SVG, looks likw someone did it for KML http://kml2svg.free.fr/ except that added projections
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kylewm davidpeach: it looks like you're doing everything correctly on your end, I'll have to dig into the flickr stuff more later
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kylewm I'll file an issue!
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tantek suggests Orange Wind for kylewm's new project, thus providing a natural path of new project names through the rainbow.
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aaronpk or going the alternate direction, Purple Wind
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snarfed no, no, stick with the raymond chandler theme!!!
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aaronpk aw I kind of liked the nod to Prince tho!
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kylewm haha, when i was thinking about making it a static generator, i wanted to call it Chill Wind :)
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kevinmarks what happened to the google feature that suggest new elements for groups?
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tantek Google Sets
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tantek I think it was sunSetted
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aaronpk it's inside Sheets now
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tantek (#sorrynotsorry)
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kevinmarks I was trying in sheets and it doesn't work any more
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kevinmarks :(
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aaronpk oh it's gone from there too :(
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tantek what is Google Sets?
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singpolyma more wood behind fewer arrows ;)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Sets" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105u
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kevinmarks I bet someone used it by accident and filled their spreadsheet with randomness
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kevinmarks how to express a classic fav in twitter now: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/661630515720552448
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@kevinmarks 🌟 https://twitter.com/Suw/status/661613884931833856 (twitter.com/_/status/661630515720552448)
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kevinmarks trolls
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tantek so many star emoji to pick from
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tantek isn't that more like adapting the Slack emoji-vote feature to Twitter?
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tantek gets pedantic
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kevinmarks exactly
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tantek what is a classic fave?
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snarfed or FB's proposed new emoji reactions
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "classic fave" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105v
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kevinmarks but it is also a text-first way of writing a like
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kevinmarks for a modern definition of text
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kevinmarks cf http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/adactio-notesmdashnovember-3rd-2015-717pm
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kevinmarks one for snarfed http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/today-in-unfortunate-truncation
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kevinmarks hm, the &mdash; there is a shame
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kevinmarks also oddly retro
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kevinmarks new silo https://ditto.today/
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aaronpk whoa https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/introducing-ditto-a-link-aggregator-for-an-inclusive-community
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aaronpk it's an entirely JS site https://ditto.today/community/ditto-news/i0pNfoi-LEGx5i1RVoaADA/hello-world-dittos-here
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davidpeach kylewm: brill thanks
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singpolyma looks like digg again, hehe
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voxpelli very Product Hunt-like design
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singpolyma the intro post reeks of NIH
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singpolyma "we hated some subreddits, so we wrote new code"
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kevinmarks https://ditto.today/community/ditto-news/i0pNfoi-LEGx5i1RVoaADA/hello-world-dittos-here/9bd989688cd24ca88f141e9ce4ab92ce
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singpolyma kevinmarks: for there to be microformats on the HTML there would have to be some HTML ;)
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kylewm doesn't seem like that to me singpolyma, seems like reddit with moderator tools and a code of conduct
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singpolyma kylewm: reddit has moderator tools. If the company itself really was the issue, just take the code and run it on your own server or whatever
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singpolyma writing new code seems like overkiil for a social problem
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kevinmarks this isn't open sourced afaik
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singpolyma ah. so writing new code for to own the IP maybe
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kylewm I don't use reddit, but I thought "lack of moderator tools" was part of the big kerfuffle over it recently
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singpolyma kylewm: I mean. some mods wanted more tools (and are getting them), but users can report posts to mods, and mods and remove posts or users
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singpolyma s/and mods and/and mods can
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Loqi singpolyma meant to say: kylewm: I mean. some mods wanted more tools (and are getting them), but users can report posts to mods, and mods can remove posts or users
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[kevinmarks] Hm, will web action toolbelt turn twitter hearts back into stars as a side effect?
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voxpelli Web action toolbelt?
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ben_thatmustbeme any time i hear "new silo" i check for source code .... *sigh* js based :/
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tantek that should be a relief - since it means it's one less thing to worry about
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@davebancroft Keepin it real - POSSE The future of the web, maybe. Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere - http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE @arstechnica (twitter.com/_/status/661651725053501440)
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[shaners] aaronpk tantek: Have yall looked at JSON API as part of your jf2 exploration?
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[shaners] http://jsonapi.org
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aaronpk not yet. right now jf2 is just a simplified version of mf2
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[shaners] I wonder if there’s a way to move jf2 into jsonapi compliant and still staying real simple.
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ben_thatmustbeme oh there you are [shaners]. JFDI is not a recursive acronym :P
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aaronpk jsonapi seems to be very database oriented since it requires each record has an "id"
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aaronpk all the examples have id as a number, although i think there's nothing in the spec preventing IDs from being URLs
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[shaners] ben_thatmustbeme: Oh derp. You’re right!
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[shaners] But it’s not a backronym either
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ben_thatmustbeme it is, it was made to look like JEDI
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snarfed jsonapi also reminds me of http://opensocial-resources.googlecode.com/svn/spec/2.0.1/Social-API-Server.xml#ActivityStreams-Service
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ben_thatmustbeme but doesn't to avoid legal entanglements
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snarfed (which granary's REST API implements)
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ben_thatmustbeme any time you force an acronym to fit some format, pronouncable or not, its a bacronym
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ben_thatmustbeme heh, force ... jedi... unintentional
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[shaners] But JFDI isn’t an existing word. It’s a new one.
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't matter
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aaronpk "a backronym is constructed by creating a new phrase to fit an already existing word, name, or acronym"
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[shaners] I think it does. But I don’t care enough to debate it with you.
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aaronpk you can even backronym to an existing acronym
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ben_thatmustbeme well yes, any time you start with what you want it to be
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ben_thatmustbeme like "i want the acronym to end up as JFDI so it looks like JEDI"
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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Loqi gives ben_thatmustbeme the acronym to end up as JFDI so it looks like JEDI"
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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[shaners] aaronpk: one of the knock on effects of getting jf2 to be jsonapi compliant is we’d get a grip of new parsers for free.
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ben_thatmustbeme .... thanks loqi
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[shaners] http://jsonapi.org/implementations
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk that is not the "JFDI" I thought it was trying to look like but okay :)
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aaronpk [shaners]: interesting...
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: what were you going for?
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ben_thatmustbeme also, yes, that is very interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme we should look at the ID thing
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: i didn't suggest that!
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ben_thatmustbeme goes back to logs
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[shaners] Let’s do an exercise of morphing the example on the jf2 wiki page into JSON API and see what it looks like.
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[shaners] I’ll start with a gist that we can sketch on
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aaronpk [shaners]: there are more examples here https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, it was [kevinmarks]
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[kevinmarks] JFDI is an existing acronym, that was the joke.
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aaronpk i knew it!
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[kevinmarks] Is that a homoacronym?
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[kevinmarks] Just F-ing Do It
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[shaners] jf2-as-jsonapi.json
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[shaners] https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/5dbc2de22cafe3abd67e
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ben_thatmustbeme "The values of the id and type members MUST be strings."
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[shaners] aaronpk: I know. We can work through all of them. But let’s start at the start. :wink:
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ben_thatmustbeme so it can be URLs just fine
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aaronpk just want to make sure you saw some of the more complicated ones
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[shaners] gotcha
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aaronpk also there is more background on the design decisions in that doc
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ben_thatmustbeme also note, i have my service to turn any existing mf2 page in to jf2
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ben_thatmustbeme can use that for some very complex examples
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ben_thatmustbeme http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/9/16/26
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voxpelli the design goals of JSON API are really focused on what makes an API good, not necessarily what makes a data format good – I like many parts of it though, just something to be aware of
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[shaners] totes
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[shaners] I’m just suggesting we check it out and do a little what-if exercise. Maybe there’s something that shakes out.
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aaronpk i would happily explore that
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[shaners] I’m dinking around on it now in that gist
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aaronpk cool i will let you finish :)
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voxpelli [shaners]: "A document MUST contain at least one of the following top-level members: data, errors, meta" – so your gist is for a JSON API resource object rather than a top level object, right?
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[shaners] btw, that example doesn’t have a uid or url in it. Seems important.
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aaronpk that is an oversight in that example ;)
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aaronpk that's why i gave you the link to the github page
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[shaners] voxpelli: yep
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voxpelli [shaners]: the only permitted top level attributes of a resource object apart from "id" and "typ" in JSON API is "attributes", "relationships", "links" and "meta" as I understand it
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aaronpk i think he's workkng on it
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[shaners] yeah. working on it.
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[shaners] https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/5dbc2de22cafe3abd67e
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[shaners] Ok. I *think* this is it. Not sure though.
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[shaners] It’s definitely not as simple as the jf2 example on the mf site.
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aaronpk probably needs a "url" attribute too
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voxpelli [shaners]: In the spirit of JSON API I would probably add a self-link or similar to the relationship, pointing to the URL of the h-card, but that would perhaps not be a 100% representative of the data
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voxpelli depends of whether the URL of a h-card can be seen as the canonical / source / self link of an h-card or not
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[shaners] either you wanna fork my gist and add your changes?
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voxpelli [shaners]: the photo would probably be a relationship as well and not an attribute, no?
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voxpelli not sure, just brainstorming
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[shaners] prolly. i got worn out already.
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aaronpk lol well that's not a good sign
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[shaners] exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, i feel like this actually spirals directly out of mf2's representative json slightly easier
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ben_thatmustbeme rels => links for the top level item
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: feel free to take a stab at mf2json -> jsonapi!
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ben_thatmustbeme i may do that
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ben_thatmustbeme not today
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[shaners] is jf2 meant to be hand written?
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ben_thatmustbeme it could be, but certainly needn't be
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aaronpk [shaners]: i'm expecting anyone who's publishing mf2 html will use a service to convert it to jf2. I also suspect some people will output jf2 directly.
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voxpelli aaronpk: use a service how?
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aaronpk like pin13.net/mf2
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: i'm already publishing it on all of my pages right now
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ben_thatmustbeme using my own service
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voxpelli isn't it the consumer that uses a service, not the publisher? unless we're talking eg micropub?
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aaronpk voxpelli: my site already links to a JSON alternate in the html
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aaronpk view source on any of my pages and look for rel="alternate"
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aaronpk that's what I mean
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ben_thatmustbeme same here
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voxpelli oh, I thought jf2 was purely meant for services – not for published content
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aaronpk i don't understand the difference
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voxpelli published content -> HTML, services talking to each other over API:s -> JSON
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aaronpk that seems like a strange distinction
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aaronpk are you saying a JSON document at a URL is not published content?
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voxpelli JSON makes sense when computers consumes ut, HTML makes sense when the consumer is unknown
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voxpelli not at all, I'm saying I don't see why one would want to use JSON to publish content
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aaronpk i still don't really get the original question. I link to the pin13.net mf2 service because that's easier for me than also publishing JSON. I will do the same for jf2
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voxpelli why should it be up to the publisher to pick a service to convert from mf2 to jf2? isn't it better for a consumer to decide whether it wants to parse the data itself or have someone else do it for them?
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aaronpk voxpelli: it's more a question of whether the publisher a) wants to publish jf2 directly or b) offloads that
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aaronpk also it doesn't have to be a conversion from microformats to jf2, you can publish jf2 without microformats behind it, which i'm expecting some people will do
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voxpelli why would the publisher ever want to publish jf2 if jf2 is an implementation detail of a consumer?
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aaronpk who said jf2 is an implementation detail of a consumer?
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davidpeach anybody know the best oauth2 client to use for php (laravel specifically). I use guzzle for twitter oauth1, but need oauth2 for new project
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voxpelli I'm, very surpised to hear this when publishing data as RSS has generally been something that people have been fairly critical about due to eg. DRY-concerns. What differs jf2 from eg. RSS?
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aaronpk davidpeach: in contrast to oauth1, oauth 2 is actually simple enough you don't really need a library. also oauth 2 APIs tend to be different enough that a library won't help much
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davidpeach oki dokes
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davidpeach i was thinking of hand-coding but thought id take a look first.
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aaronpk voxpelli: for one, jf2 *is* a derivation of microformats html so you don't need to actually generate two versions of your content
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davidpeach you've convinced me. :)
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aaronpk voxpelli: but it's also for people who don't believe publishing HTML is useful
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voxpelli aaronpk: one can do the very same with RSS/Atom feeds, no?
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davidpeach what do you guys think of the whole https-only stuff? I heard mozilla will be deprecating http access or something?
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aaronpk yes. and the same people who aren't a huge fan of publishing HTML are also not a huge fan of XML ;)
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voxpelli ok, I really shouldn't argue about this right now, too tired, but I'm really not convinced why people should suddenly start publishing jf2-data – as a format for API:s I'm pro it, as a format for publishing data on the web I'm against
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snarfed https++
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Loqi https has 0 karma
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snarfed heh
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aaronpk voxpelli: it's still early for this for sure. but for starters, it can serve as a simplified json representation of microformats if nothing else.
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[shaners] Ok. I went a little deeper on the jf2/jsonapi conversion.
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[shaners] https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/5dbc2de22cafe3abd67e
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voxpelli aaronpk: I'd say that it's especially too early to start publishing such links – if consumers start to widely adopt the jf2 format then it could make sense to have clients be able to publish it directly
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voxpelli but until then it feels premature
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aaronpk yeah i'm not publishing jf2 links any time soon
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[shaners] Actually, i think i’m doing it wrong. I think all the nested stuff is meant to go down at the bottom in an included section. Instead of nested inline.
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[shaners] I think.
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voxpelli [shaners]: I wonder if one could consider the url-attributes redundant as the id:s of those types will always(?) be url:s? and if they are not URL:s then a self-link would probably be more representative anyhow?
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voxpelli [shaners]: I think you can do both
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[shaners] prolly/maybe? not sure.
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voxpelli [shaners]: depends on whether you reference the same object multiple times in the same response – then you want a reference to a top-included object instead
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voxpelli so in an h-feed for example you wouldn't want to inline the h-card in every line but rather reference a top level object
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voxpelli it's a rather neat pattern – like a GraphQL Lite
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voxpelli JSON Graph also does the same: http://netflix.github.io/falcor/documentation/jsongraph.html
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voxpelli (funny, going back to the Micropub discussion about prefixes, seems like JSON Graph actually uses "$" as their prefix for metadata)
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aaronpk heh
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voxpelli aaronpk: btw, nothing about the rel-alternate for jf2 or anything at any of the wikis – neither indieweb or mf
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voxpelli they give the impression that it's just an alternate output of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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aaronpk right. for now that's what it is
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voxpelli ok, maybe lets keep it that way and have the discussion about exposing it go by another name as that's pretty separate from the actual format used? One could eg. expose the current mf2 JSON as well
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli (if we should take notice from the OStatus / Activity Streams communities also – any mandatory switching of data formats is a pretty dangerous move – I have rewritten too much code because of such things)
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sandro Hmmm. Is anyone ( aaronpk? rhiaro? ) running something on their server that would let me be notified of new content without polling? I feel like I'm missing something obvious.
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Loqi sandro: tantek left you a message 1 week, 4 days ago: thanks for the feedback! Have added a brief "Upcoming IndieWebCamps" subsection near the top of https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCamps - hopefully that is skim-obvious now! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-23/line/1445618981202
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kylewm sandro: PuSH?
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[aaronpk] sandro: yep! PubSubHubbub
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[aaronpk] voxpelli: definitely. Take this with a grain of salt for now.
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[aaronpk] What is how to push?
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Loqi This page is a description of a minimum viable subset of PuSH 0.4 that is sufficient for supporting the IndieWeb use cases of realtime publishing feeds of h-entry posts, and subscribing to & receiving notifications of updates from those feeds https://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push
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voxpelli (Just used Requestb.in to debug a PuSH flow, worked great as a webhook for a subscription)
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[aaronpk] Oh really? Do they echo the challenge for you?
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voxpelli Yes!
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voxpelli Very handy
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[aaronpk] That's nice of them
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[aaronpk] And undocumented lol
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voxpelli Tried to use Feedbin first, but the latency there was too big to know if content was received by poll or push
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sandro Thanks, aaronpk, now I remembering you saying you thought it was redeemed and usable. BTW I got stuck on https://indiewebcamp.com/push_notification which is about a different part of the puzzle. Hmmm... I don't see a list of implementations on https://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-push Are you using it?
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sandro Looks like it...? <link rel="hub" href="https://switchboard.p3k.io/" />
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voxpelli sandro: list of users are on https://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH
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sandro voxpelli, thanks!
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davidpeach anyboy here use google play all access for streaming music?
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@FemometerInc Now is the perfect time to sit in the driver’s seat. http://www.femometer.com/ #Femometer #OwnYourData https://twitter.com/FemometerInc/status/661676509342511104/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/661676509342511104)
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gRegorLove I do, davidpeach
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davidpeach cool. can you view this playlist?
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davidpeach https://play.google.com/music/listen#/pl/AMaBXyk0v47sfKionniusBWlCu0HViTnm01wDDh5plwgj0qD5HtVIwsomB_VDx9zVfdI1aF3PezGR3PEcx279prE5bEvtkOP_g%3D%3D
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kevinmarks ah looks like twitterchanged their markup so that web action hero toolbelt can't replace hearts
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davidpeach gonna start putting playlists together - on own site first ofc. But then making a google and spotify one as 'possed' copies
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gRegorLove davidpeach: Yep, loads for me.
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davidpeach nice
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davidpeach just added post type of playlist
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davidpeach to site
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gRegorLove What is playlist?
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[shaners] aaronpk: why are slashes escaped in a quoted string in JSON Land?
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[shaners] "url": "http:\/\/tantek.com\/",
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "playlist" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105w
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[shaners] What is list?
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davidpeach inspired by http://more.dearcoquette.com/playlists/
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "list" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105x
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kylewm because php
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davidpeach yer I can put together a playlist page for wiki
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[shaners] :disappointed:
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[aaronpk] Is that a pho thing?
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gRegorLove What is jam?
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Loqi jam is an active type of post used to share a song that you are recently enjoying https://indiewebcamp.com/jam
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[aaronpk] I dunno that's just what I get when I json encode
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[shaners] hmm
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[aaronpk] Man iOS autocorrect is not friendly to programming terminology
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kylewm good for vietnamese food tho :P
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davidpeach I like the JAM one
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[shaners] will php decode json to php object without escaped slashes and Do The Right Thing™?
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davidpeach its hard to do that passively with google play though cuz they have zero api.
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davidpeach i mnaually save albums I listen to http://davidpea.ch/listens
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davidpeach but each song would be hard
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gRegorLove [shaners]: Yes
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kylewm apparently the \/'s are to make it safer to embed in html http://stackoverflow.com/a/1580682/682648
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[shaners] bummer town
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[shaners] afk a bit
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gRegorLove davidpeach: I've only posted a few jams, always manually. It's different than a playlist or a passive listen, though.
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gRegorLove I thought we had /playlist already but I guess not.
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gregorlove.com edited /jam (-24) "/* Gregor Morrill */ Fixed POSSE link on original" (view diff)
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kylewm heh, https://twitter.com/fredericmarx/status/661583120240664576
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@fredericmarx That awkward moment when the German expression for “Likes” is 21 characters long. #i18n [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/661583120240664576)
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aaronpk gefällt?
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kylewm Gefällt Mir-Angaben
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aaronpk clicks the link
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aaronpk LOL
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kylewm word for word that's "like-me information"?
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aaronpk "das gefällt mir" is "i like it" or more literaly "it is liked by me"
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aaronpk i think it's trying to say "things i have liked"
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aaronpk or "likes given"
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aaronpk any actual german speakers want to chime in? :D
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kevinmarks I can see the playlist david
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kevinmarks https://twitter.com/deBaer/status/661672579078471681
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@deBaer @fredericmarx @offbyoni The correct German word would be "Gefallensbekundungsbezeugungen" though. (twitter.com/_/status/661672579078471681)
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kevinmarks can you noun verbs in german?
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aaronpk sure just put "ge-" before it an "-en" after
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davidpea.ch created /playlist (+509) "Created playlist page." (view diff)
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davidpea.ch edited /playlist (+42) "add dearcoquette link." (view diff)
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@kevinmarks @girlziplocked BTW, if you're setting up your website, you might like Indiewebcamp at the weekend: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT (twitter.com/_/status/661694308270129152)