#indiewebcamp 2016-01-04

2016-01-04 UTC
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[snarfed] also https://github.com/kaflesudip/instagram-unofficial
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aaronpk [snarfed]: added an example of HTML vs markdown article https://docs.p3k.io/post/article
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[snarfed] cool!
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kylewm um, https://github.com/kaflesudip/instagram-unofficial doesn't have an implementation?
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[snarfed] tantek: interesting. i assume you wouldn't similarly protect your twitter account due to mention spam because your followers don't normally see those mentions?
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[snarfed] kylewm: hah. maybe wrong repo. i think there is one implemented somewhere
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kylewm [kevinmarks]: is it (verbal expressions) more than a construction API for regexes? those always seem weird to me, like http://sqlkorma.com/
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kylewm (to be clear, that's a construction api for sql, not regex)
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tantek snarfed, right, the problem is worst on IG so I would start with that.
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tantek I may take more silo profiles private in the future.
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snarfed public vs private culture varies widely across silos though
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snarfed e.g. i expect it'd be a much more jarring change on twitter than on IG
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petermolnar re tantek I walked away from 500px for the same reasons you're about to private your IG
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[kevinmarks] A more readable construction api for regex (l admit I like HyperTalk syntax, and python stuff like startswith() more than regex)
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Schnitz jesus just walking thru the tumblr developers forum, thats such a flaky bunch of people there. No wonder tumblr is the No. 1 fangirling vent
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Schnitz ops this was meant to be for indiechat, sorry
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aaronpk does anyone tag posts as having happened at an event rather than at a place?
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aaronpk like event tagging vs venue tagging
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aaronpk I think that's what my presentation posts are trying to do
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/s4Yf1
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[snarfed] aaronpk: yup! https://snarfed.org/2015-10-08_15773
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aaronpk interesting, "Pop-Up Magazine" was the event?
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Schnitz so snarfed getting back to my lil superfeedr question, you basically fetch any URLs anywhere in the DOM of the RSS right so it doesn't really matter where I put the webmention facebook public <a href> as long as its somehwere as a value and its shows up via superfeeds parsing?
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[snarfed] Schmitz: yes
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[snarfed] aaronpk: yes
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Schnitz I could put <a href="https://brid.gy/publish/facebook"></a> anywhere in the RSS, right...
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Schnitz thanks snarfed, thats valuable information
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[snarfed] in the content, yes
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Schnitz in the content of any rss xml tag, right, not just description, right?
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Schnitz gotcha :)
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[snarfed] um, not sure it can be an arbitrary tag
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[snarfed] i think it has to be content
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Schnitz ok snarfed, eat this: http://belp.audio/post/136572796912/test/rss
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Schnitz check the description tag ,)
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Schnitz its a really ugly hack
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[snarfed] lol
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Schnitz yup!
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Schnitz told ya
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Schnitz really ugly hack
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Schnitz :--)
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[snarfed] if superfeer passes that through to me in its content field, then sure!
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Schnitz cool no worries I'll just wait until superfeedr picks this up, nothing for you to do, just givin' it a try...
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aaronpk I've gone through all my post types now with the exception of one
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aaronpk ...my fancy "collection" posts, which I author by just adding URLs that point to h-entrys
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aaronpk I think I'm going to flatten those into blog posts for now, possibly for good. I might re-create that experience as a new way to author things in Quill.
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@rrrrrrrix I pushed my #IndieWeb notes generator (the thing creating these posts) https://t.co/eztg3UFZBB… (http://notes.whatthefuck.computer/1451876940.0-note.html) (twitter.com/_/status/683848348684558336)
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bear doh! I think my testing of webmentions just spammed the webmention endpoint for both snarfed and kylewm
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[kevinmarks] Can your collections have inline commentary, or are they just links with previews?
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[shaners] Schnitz: please keep words like "fangirling" out of channel. Indiechat and this channel alike.
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kylewm bear: I was wondering :) No problem, but reminds me that I need to filter out self mentions
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bear kylewm - oops! (I was regenerating meta data for my mentions by pointing at the source url
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[aaronpk] kevinmarks: yeah they have inline commentary. When I import these I'm just going to convert them to blog posts
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[kevinmarks] Quill makes that kind easier in a way, though the + button would need a "link to render" option
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aaronpk heh yeah i guess the + button could have an option for pulling in an h-entry content and that would be all it takes
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tantek interesting: https://twitter.com/davidascher/status/683384281779970049
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@davidascher Impressed with the ghost+heroku+s3 combo. Self-hosting a pretty simple but nice blog for minimal cost. Next: federating the stream /cc @t (twitter.com/_/status/683384281779970049)
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@t @davidascher very cool! what is the domain name? Let’s add some #indieweb building blocks! (ttk.me t4f32) (twitter.com/_/status/683887986019205121)
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@jansauer RT @aaronpk: Just launched Telegraph: an API for sending webmentions! https://telegraph.p3k.io #indieweb https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/680140764706242560/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/683899868180557824)
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mblaney KartikPrabhu: if you're interested, the reason why SimplePie was cutting your html short was it assumed it was ASCII
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KartikPrabhu so it was breaking on some character?
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mblaney and then it runs a function on ASCII data that stops processing it if it hits non-ASCII data
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mblaney yeah that's right
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KartikPrabhu i think it do declare utf-8 encoding in my html
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mblaney SimplePie does lots of content checks on xml, but none on the html.
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mblaney yes your html is fine
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KartikPrabhu that is weird
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mblaney well it is meant to be an xml parser, not html ;-)
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KartikPrabhu anyway I had to hack mf2py to fit some similar situation. hopefully you can fix it or file a bug report to SimplePie
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mblaney SimplePie isn't maintained anymore so I'm just working on my own version of it now.
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KartikPrabhu aah cool
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mblaney my fix is to assume html is UTF-8 rather than ASCII and all is well
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mblaney I'm not sure if that will cause me problems later.... encodings are hard to fathom
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KartikPrabhu yeah encodings are tricky
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mblaney the good news is now my h-card processing code works and I can store icons for h-feeds
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KartikPrabhu nice!
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@kevinmarks Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683929336127201280)
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@WillaCassandra_ RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683929517694545920)
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@Valerie_Janelle RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683929518948659200)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683929520173367297)
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@VisceralBiz RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683930162052886528)
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@blackgurltech RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683934122155323392)
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@CustServiceMatt RT @kevinmarks: Very neat single-page app model with pure HTML+CSS http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/12/reimagining-single-page-applications-progressive-enhancement/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683936102693076992)
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KevinMarks so, you know that whole database antipattern thing? how about filesystem antipatterns? http://danluu.com/file-consistency/
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: if everything is an anti-pattern...
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KevinMarks antipatterns all the way down
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KartikPrabhu doesn't using a database just compound the filesystem ones
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KartikPrabhu if a filesystem is bad everything built on top of it inherits its badness and then some more. So if the filesystem is the base-level you have access to then use that
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petermolnar ZFS to save us all
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KevinMarks according to that, sqlite is much better at avoiding file system bugs than other DBs
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petermolnar sqlite3?
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petermolnar sqlite (1) was kind of plain text, sqlite3 is binary
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: "than other DBS" sure. BUt is it better than direct filesystem write?
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KevinMarks the problems referred to are atomicity errors etc. So if you just write whole files, you may be OK
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petermolnar atomic errors can occur on writing a file. the sqlite db is a single file.
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KevinMarks or more likely to be
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KevinMarks right, which is presumably how they got good at finding these kinds of error
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KartikPrabhu exactly! anything built on top of a filesystem will be as bad as the filesystem
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KartikPrabhu and maybe worse
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KartikPrabhu so I mean one can start a binary-antipattern about computers using binary to store things but it is not useful
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KevinMarks https://www.sqlite.org/howtocorrupt.html
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@jgmac1106 @kevinmarks redesigning webpage for big organizations. Tried to convince them to drop CMS for just 8 pages of html/css. I lost. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683958272131502080)
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@jgmac1106 @t @davidascher Been using @withknown as my stream in all my efforts to #teachtheweb. When bridgy and #indieweb tools working its awesome (twitter.com/_/status/683958742292017152)
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@kevinmarks @h0d3r we're doing that over at http://indiewebcamp.com - come join us (twitter.com/_/status/683970221602820098)
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@davidmead I use 'Social' by @mailchimp to broadcast to Twitter @dougmckown. Though it hasn’t been updated... http://davidjohnmead.com/blog/2016/01/04/3448/ #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/683979114001207296)
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Schnitz is back
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acegiak GWG: What format should the time be in for these timestamps? the fact that there's two text boxes is confusing me
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cweiske interesting: http://www.webcitation.org/
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petermolnar cweiske any benefits over archive.org?
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cweiske their FAQ states that you can initiate the archive request, instead having to wait for archive.org to pick up the changes
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petermolnar https://archive.org/web/ -> Save Page Now
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cweiske oh ok
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petermolnar !tell tantek https://saola.in/about/ & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10830587
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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cweiske I've sent a mail telling them about this and asking for FAQ update
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petermolnar !tell tantek oh, wait, this is not self-hosted, sorry
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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acegiak !tell GWG I'm having trouble getting start and end stamps to work. are they working for you? The metadata is there but it's not showing up in the fields or the post display after saving
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Schnitz acegiak: hey there. Aren't you acegiak on tumblr too? Any experiences with customizing tumblr?
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acegiak Not a lot. I'm using the default theme etc and just POSSEing to tumblr
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acegiak But I'm happy to help out if I can
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Schnitz alright thanks (trying to get control over the RSS generator of Tumblr, any ideas?)
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tommorris enjoying https://whatdoesmysitecost.com/ - loads your web page, tells you how much it'll cost to buy the data necessary to load the page in different countries.
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Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message 1 week ago: you're either listed on https://indiewebcamp.com/read#IndieWeb_Examples or I remember you mentioning wanting to user your own site to track/publish what you've read. I've started experimenting more. Would be interested in discussing. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-27/line/1451244187284
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cweiske my site costs nothing :)
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cweiske https://whatdoesmysitecost.com/test/160104_9J_3dbdade898667ccab2f9266275fc1f5b
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tommorris tantek.com costs a fair bit... ;-)
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GWG acegiak: It should only show up with certain kinds, But it should save. I tested saving repeatedly.
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Loqi GWG: acegiak left you a message 40 minutes ago: I'm having trouble getting start and end stamps to work. are they working for you? The metadata is there but it's not showing up in the fields or the post display after saving http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-04/line/1451911396808
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petermolnar KevinMarks I'm reading the filesystems post; there is no mentions of zfs' and btrfs' copy-on-write by default mechanism, which in theory, is pretty resilient.
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Schnitz hey snarfed
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snarfed hi Schnitz!
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Schnitz Hey Ryan, got a second? :-)
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snarfed sure
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Schnitz cool dude, thanks man
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Schnitz so the really ugly hack didn't work
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Schnitz with the description tag
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Schnitz which is fine
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Schnitz but one thing didn't work, and that would have been nice
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Schnitz check this out
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Schnitz http://belp.audio/post/136605695457/tumblr-actually-dead-for-real-now/rss
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Schnitz I've put the webmention publish under category
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Schnitz that would have been semantically kinda nice and ok, 'cos tumblr allows me to access that via tagging... adding a tag with publich webmention url to a post in tumblr seems kinda natural
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Schnitz but it didn't get thru
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snarfed sorry, yeah
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snarfed i'm not surprised
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Schnitz sure
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snarfed you could consider doing it manually each time. if you add the bridgy publish link to your html template, it's just a few more clicks per post
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Schnitz thats not working, 'cos tumblr give you basically no control over the RSS
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Schnitz am about to file a feature request about that inside tumblr, but thats not gonna happen I guess :-)
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snarfed i meant add the link to your html, not to the rss
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snarfed and then go click preview and send manually
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Schnitz in general, if you *would* parse my HTML which all nicely done with h-entries instead of the rss, I would have full control of course.
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Schnitz gotcha
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Schnitz I'll do that for now, no problem
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snarfed true! feel free to file a feature request for that!
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Schnitz I will actually do that :-)
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Schnitz snarfed, and then there is other really minor but important thing for now, whitespace handling
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Schnitz when the post shows up in FB, all HTML markup inside the description tag of RSS has been completely stripped
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snarfed i assume you've seen https://brid.gy/about#ignore-formatting ?
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snarfed but hmm, that wouldn't help with this
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snarfed regardless, publish doesn't use the RSS's content, it fetches your HTML
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Schnitz OH
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Schnitz it does?
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Schnitz amazing
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Schnitz ???
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Schnitz funky
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snarfed you can see the publish processing details if you look at one of the logs
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Schnitz so basically you poll the RSS to see if anything is new, take the webmention call from there, THEN go to the HTML version and use h-entries, etc.?
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snarfed superfeedr polls the rss, it pings me when there's a new post
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snarfed that's its value
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snarfed publish is a separate feature from blog webmentions (ie tumblr support)
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Schnitz no worries, totally with you, I'm your fan .-)
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Schnitz very interesting... but this also means you're actually making some sense out of my HTML representation and there I /should/ have some control it, since I /can/ control the HTML in Tumblr. This is awesome.
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snarfed right!
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Schnitz thanks so much for clarifying
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snarfed but you're right, it should have preserved the line breaks in e.g. http://belp.audio/post/136469657957/great-bridgy-example , but it didn't: https://www.facebook.com/957543644328212/posts/957975110951732
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snarfed not sure why
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Schnitz exactly, yes
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Schnitz thank you again
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Schnitz maybe silly question, can you handle more complex posts then into FB like photosets, etc.? H-entry-wise this should be no problem to be marked-up, or complex threads, question is in what way can you get this into FB?
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snarfed yup, pictures are supported: https://brid.gy/about#publish-types
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snarfed only one per post though
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snarfed not albums yet
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Schnitz not too bad. Photo posts is something I should definitely be able to bugfix then with my current setting. I have something to check out / improve then. Thanks :-)
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@jkphl ❤ly reminder: Did you register for the @indiewebcamp Nuremberg, April 16th? Pls don't forget the guest list then ☞ http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (twitter.com/_/status/684050692454088704)
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@xwolf RT @jkphl: ❤ly reminder: Did you register for the @indiewebcamp Nuremberg, April 16th? Pls don't forget the guest list then ☞ https://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/684050789455781891)
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@jkphl ^ If you need assistance w/ adding yourself, I'd be happy to help you with that! Just give me a buzz ... :) +@indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/684051241681457152)
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adactio.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+344) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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fmarx.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+263) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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@bele_e RT @jkphl: ❤ly reminder: Did you register for the @indiewebcamp Nuremberg, April 16th? Pls don't forget the guest list then ☞ https://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/684054253376278528)
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@poulpita [better web] Webmention, a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site, could be a @W3C standard http://webmention.net/draft/ (twitter.com/_/status/684057251951296514)
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@misuba @anildash #indieweb :-) (twitter.com/_/status/684059598521634817)
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tantek nice couple of tweets this morning :)
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 40 minutes ago: https://saola.in/about/ & https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10830587 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-04/line/1451910734253
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 38 minutes ago: oh, wait, this is not self-hosted, sorry http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-04/line/1451910858292
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tantek let's see if Anil picks up indieweb this year (we keep reaching out to him nearly every year!)
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tantek petermolnar: I've kind of given up on clicking on hackernews / reddit links due to low quality of discussion. If there's something particularly interesting, please quote it inline! Thanks!
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petermolnar I will; that was too hasty to link anyway, and I'll pay more attention from now on
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petermolnar by the way: I see tweets and notices going to the Old Ones of Blogging (anildash, h0d3r, etc) about blogging, none seem to reply or look interested, and I really wonder, why?
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@WebScrewdriver RT @poulpita: [better web] Webmention, a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site, could be a @W3C standard https://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/684060828413374464)
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tantek petermolnar: they might be burnt out, or despondent.
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tantek fortunately for every old one of blogging, there are dozens if not hundreds of new ones of blogging, so progress is not bottlenecked on any particular gatekeepers.
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@stevefaulkner RT @poulpita: [better web] Webmention, a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site, could be a @W3C standard https://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/684062709927833601)
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petermolnar I don't know if it would make it easier or harder for webmentions
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aaronpk if what would?
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petermolnar the tweet
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petermolnar if webmentions were W3C standard
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aaronpk oh, we've been making good progress on it
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aaronpk http://webmention.net/draft/
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tantek aaronpk: were you able to get it published with sandro's help? if not, what are you blocked on?
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tantek checks w3.org/TR/webmention
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aaronpk very close. the official request to use the "webmention" short name on w3.org was approved this morning
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tantek ah great
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tantek maybe that means it will get published tomorrow morning!
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Schnitz oh wow, webmention as a w3c thing? really?
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tantek Schnitz: perhaps you want to consider joining the W3C Social Web Working Group :) w3.org/wiki/socialwg
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tantek and yes, the Social Web Working Group *charter* included Webmention explicitly as one possible input (years ago), and last year decided to adopt it as an editor's draft, and then resolved to publish a first public working draft too! (all last year)
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Schnitz don't do this to me, and official invite to get back to w3c... I had promissed myself to do something else in life, I feel very much flattered and tempted though :-)
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tantek Schnitz it's a very different W3C group
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tantek you can ignore the mailing list!
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tantek :)
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tantek and participate only on IRC, telcons, and of course your own personal site (best option :D )
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Schnitz is it invitation based or can you just hop on?
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tantek any W3C member can join obv
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Schnitz I'm not a W3C member anymore
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tantek if not, you have to apply as an invited expert (instructions / links on the above URL)
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tantek note also that our home page is on the W3C wiki
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tantek another big change
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Schnitz good, I don't quality as an expert
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Schnitz qualify
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Schnitz :-)
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Schnitz not being negative, no worries, this is great
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Schnitz publish it as note thought and thats it, don't through the entire process please
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tantek Schnitz then I invite you to lurk on the #social channel on irc.w3.org
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Schnitz aaaalright
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tantek Schnitz: webmention already has incredible multi-implementation interop
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tantek and tests and such
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Schnitz no I'm sure, but getting to to REC? years?
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tantek so I expect to go through CR very quickly, if we can fight off all the random feature requests from architecture astronauts
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Schnitz I admire your faith, energies and optimims. Go for it!
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tantek we're likely going to have a disposition of comments with lots of formal objections like ("doesn't include my pet hypothetical feature which is required for anything to work")
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Schnitz exactly
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Schnitz not being negative, just don't to see this being caught in W3C .... mud
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tantek so then it will come down to TimBL, whether he will support the architecture astronauts, or the *numerous* interoperable implementations
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tantek and it's kind of a trap
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tantek either he overrules the architecture astronauts
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Schnitz why not just publish it as an NOTE?
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tantek or he looks like a bottleneck compared to IETF
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tantek Schnitz: because Webmention is already more real than 90% of RECs
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tantek no reason to be shy about it
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Schnitz you fascinate me, tantek
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tantek plus IP protection etc. etc.
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tantek note that Pingback nor Trackback ever made it through any standards body
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Schnitz of course, it would bring credibility back to W3C
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tantek so this would be the first
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tantek Schnitz: in some circles yes
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Schnitz I can see the value, no doubt
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tantek in other circles, doing simple things quickly upsets people
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tantek e.g. academics, enterprise architects
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Schnitz agreed
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tantek who claim that such simple solutions can't possibly work
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tantek so the key is to ignore/overrule them (document their concerns), and keep building & shipping
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tantek they are now the minority now
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Schnitz how many people in the social wg are actually using webmentions (%?)
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tantek so we *should* document their concerns
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tantek but not let theoretical problems block any progress
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tantek Schnitz: over half maybe?
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Schnitz ah
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Schnitz not bad
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Schnitz ok you've got a chance :-)
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tantek exactly :)
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Schnitz is impressed
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tantek pushing forward productively is also a way of revealing who is just there to primarily object / be stop-energy.
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Schnitz wished I had experience that sort of mindset 10 years ago at W3C
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tantek Schnitz: it's taken a while to undersand how to productively make progress at W3C
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Schnitz my first version of XFORMS called FML were dead simple, and kinda stupid
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tantek plus any time anyone blocks anything unproductively, I raise it to the AB
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Schnitz the end result became a monster
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Schnitz I couldn't stop it
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Schnitz I had to leave
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tantek so therefore W3C management is always made aware of all negative behaviors in W3C
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Schnitz my biggest failure in life
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tantek Schnitz: it was an unwinnable time. XML hegemony dominated W3C.
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Schnitz I know
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tantek so don't worry about it
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Schnitz trying :-)
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tantek also - there were not enough of us using our own websites to prove our technologies
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tantek now there are
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Schnitz hard
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tantek demos are compelling, especially at W3C meetings
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tantek it helps make the critics criticisms look empty
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tantek eventually people stop ignoring all that "crying wolf"
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tantek s/stop/start
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Loqi tantek meant to say: eventually people start ignoring all that "crying wolf"
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Schnitz tantek, you did you manage to keep your faith in W3C and all these things over the last 15 years? (this is a compliment)
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tantek Schnitz: not really. I retreated to the CSSWG for a while.
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Schnitz I can see and believe you that things look at lot better today, even at W3C ... but from 2005 til say 2012...
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Schnitz right
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tantek Schni there were growing pains during the new HTML WG
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tantek to produce HTML5
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Schnitz oh really?
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Schnitz I wasn't there
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tantek the key lessons there were all about learning who is the kind of person that blocks progress
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tantek yes
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tantek and then we have developed a lot of ways of working around such individuals
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Schnitz interesting
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tantek and in some cases all the way up to AB and the W3C Process
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tantek yes, lots of painful lessons
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tantek but progress is being made, so I'm pushing harder for even more progress
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Schnitz hmm... that explains a bit, thanks
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tantek e.g. not using mailing lists
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Schnitz GOOD
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Schnitz no seriously
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Schnitz 100% GOOD thing of you to do
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Loqi !calc 100% GOOD thing of you to do
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Schnitz GO for it
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Schnitz kick peoples a**
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Schnitz make stuff happen
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Schnitz we need, even, the W3C
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aaronpk Schnitz: lol that sounds like my framework I called "Website Template Framework" (WTF) so that the lawyers had to write that in all the legal docs I was involved with
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Schnitz hahaha :-)
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Loqi awesome
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Schnitz so webmention a REC in 2 years maybe, possible?
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tantek Schnitz: why not 6 months?
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Schnitz Hey, you're asking me, yesterday
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Schnitz but its more a question of how things work these days at W3C
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Schnitz I'm not involved
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tantek Schnitz: Social Web WG charter is over at the end of the year and I do not expect it to get renewed or extended.
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Schnitz ah ok
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tantek Because there are too few W3C members participating
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tantek and yes I've already raised this as an issue to the AB etc.
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Schnitz too few?
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Schnitz who is on it then?
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tantek yes - too few W3C members, mostly invited experts
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tantek usually that's a bad indicator
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Schnitz yes!
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tantek Schnitz see w3.org/wiki/socialwg
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Schnitz checking
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tantek there's a "members" or "participation" section where you can click a link and get a list
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Schnitz ah Arnaud i chair
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Schnitz is
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Schnitz I like him
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Schnitz bit stuffy but great guy
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@jgarber RT @poulpita: [better web] Webmention, a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site, could be a @W3C standard https://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/684072863041728513)
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tantek Schnitz: yes, the socialwg chairs mostly get along but we also bring different perspectives, so that helps :)
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Schnitz well put
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tantek getting more anticipation aaronpk ^^^ !
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aaronpk oh my
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tantek btw @poulpita is on @W3CAB :D
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aaronpk oh nice
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Schnitz rehi snarfed
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snarfed heh rehi
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ben_thatmustbeme waves
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme: tantek left you a message 1 week ago: looks like 2016-01-22..23 (F&Sa) is our best bet for IWC NYC 2016, can you make it? (at least remotely?) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-28/line/1451323476367
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ben_thatmustbeme hello #indiewebcamp
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i don't be able to make it in person for sure, i might be able to do some remote, but probably not too much
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tantek is anyone else using or trying out the webmention.io JSON->HTML service from barnaby? https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=
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tantek I'm seeing duplicate likes (e.g. all the ones from Rachel here https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/webmention-io-comments/?url=http://tantek.com/2016/002/t2/change-clothing-inspired-tomorrowland ) and wondering how to debug if that's a problem with the waterpigs service, or with webmention.io or with Bridgy?
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aaronpk odd. I don't see those in the webmention.io API so it must be that service doing it: http://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=http://tantek.com/2016/002/t2/change-clothing-inspired-tomorrowland
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tantek that *is* odd, I wonder if the waterpigs service is using an old API endpoint on webmention.io perhapsw?
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tantek since it was pre-jf2
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tantek wait I thought we had a unmung for jf2 -> HTML
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tantek KevinMarks: ^^^ >
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tantek s/>/?
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KevinMarks: ^^^ ?
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aaronpk well the json one also doesn't have the duplicates http://webmention.io/api/mentions.json?target=http://tantek.com/2016/002/t2/change-clothing-inspired-tomorrowland
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snarfed tantek: you can also try https://github.com/bcomnes/webmention.js
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@nsteinmetz RT @poulpita: [better web] Webmention, a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site, could be a @W3C standard https://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/684092827295428608)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what was that service for jf2->html?
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tantek what is jf2?
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Loqi jf2 is a working prototype of a simpler JSON serialization of Microformats https://indiewebcamp.com/jf2
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tantek hmm, nothing listed there
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, http://stream.thatmustbe.us/
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tantek could you add that to /jf2 ?
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tantek or is it already on the microformats wiki page?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: note the duplicate likes in the bottom: http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebmention.io%2Fapi%2Fmentions.jf2%3Ftarget%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2016%2F002%2Ft2%2Fchange-clothing-inspired-tomorrowland&op=jf2-mf2&ashtml=1
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tantek same problem as the waterpigs converter!
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tantek so what's going on?
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ben_thatmustbeme its on the microformats wiki page
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tantek ok I'll add a see also
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks
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tantek still, the question remains ^^^ why is producing the duplicate likes?
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ben_thatmustbeme its not... well, if you look at what webmention.io is producing its really confusing
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tantek so webmention.io is producing duplicates?
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ben_thatmustbeme it has different authors, but essentially the children array, which will have all the likes
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gRegorLove Hello #indiewebcamp
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message on 12/31 at 8:04am: we are a go for 2016-01-13, can you help out with creating pages for 2016-1? Thanks! (also feel free to expand the HWC template embed to redlink the whole year) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-31/line/1451577851070
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ben_thatmustbeme has the same URL for each sub object
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ben_thatmustbeme which is wrong
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message on 1/1 at 1:33pm: congrats on your nice new reply contexts! When did you ship that? Today? Or previously? Could you update https://indiewebcamp.com/2016-01-01-commitments#Gregor_Morrill with a date and citation/permalink example of when? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-01/line/1451684035178
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: a-ha! same URL for each sub object means either a bug in webmention.io or in Bridgy!
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ben_thatmustbeme http://pastebin.com/fdc2FLw9
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ben_thatmustbeme every entry for a like has a URL: of the like-of not the permalink to the like
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tantek that sounds like a Bridgy'ism
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ben_thatmustbeme and that particular converter doesn't look at atuhor, so its just getting the same url is a like of the same url over and over
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tantek both that converter and waterpigs's converter came to the same conclusion independently
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tantek which makes me think it's an upstream problem
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snarfed tantek: ben_thatmustbeme: looking now, but just fyi i tried webmention.js locally and it doesn't have the duplicates
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tantek is this a question of /authorship ?
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/wmjs_test.html
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ben_thatmustbeme kind of. so its not like its really duplicates at all
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ben_thatmustbeme they are all there, its the right number of them, but the way streams was written was just as permalinks to the likes, not any author info
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tantek they *look* like duplicates
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ben_thatmustbeme exactly
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tantek so that's a problem
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tantek "not any author info" really? do we need to improve /authorship for this case?
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+967) "add remainder of 2016 HWC dates" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /jf2 (+232) "more implementations see microformats wiki" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i suppose that would make sense. i can see how bridgy would have an issue if likes don't have any permalink
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ben_thatmustbeme at which point the entry should have no url though
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snarfed yeah, i think that's actually true for likes on all silos bridgy supports, and comments on most silos too
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gregorlove.com created /events/2016-01-13-homebrew-website-club (+2958) "stub event with TBD venues" (view diff)
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snarfed i fabricate permalinks by adding fragments in most cases, but not all, e.g. facebook likes like here. i should probably do it for them too. background: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/215
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gRegorLove tantek: HWC dates added and stub event for 01-13
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@leitmedium Habe ja dieses Indieweb Ding im Blog, dass Tweets und Facebook Kommentare zu einem Artikel importiert. Leider fast alles als Spam markiert (twitter.com/_/status/684100689262436352)
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tantek gRegorLove++ awesome!!
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Loqi gRegorLove has 46 karma
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snarfed i definitely prefer that instead of omitting url so that people can click through to the silo post. (ideally end users should never end up on bridgy's own mf2 pages, which is what would happen otherwise.)
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tantek that design detail (and reasoning) should be documented somewhere, perhaps even on /Bridgy
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tantek otherwise we'll have more implementations with such bugs
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snarfed backfeed implementations, maybe
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tantek what is backfeed?
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Loqi Backfeed is the process of syndicating interactions on your POSSE copies back (AKA reverse syndicating) to your original posts https://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed
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snarfed ok i've reopened https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/215 for this
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gregorlove.com edited /2016-01-01-commitments (+131) "/* Gregor Morrill */ clarified" (view diff)
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snarfed having said that, i kinda wonder if webmention.io should handle this better. bridgy definitely provides unique uids for each like, but webmention.io doesn't serve the uid, so if consumers want to de-dupe, they have to fall back to de-duping on url
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snarfed ...which breaks in this case, since i didn't think url needed to be unique
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snarfed (ideally it would be, of course, but silos gonna silo)
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Schnitz snarfed, you there?
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ben_thatmustbeme ohhh
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ben_thatmustbeme the webmention.io output doesn't have a type for author
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ben_thatmustbeme so i ignore it
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek i had a chance to look at that issue again, it would have shown the author if it had a type value for the author. if there is no type, its not in the correct format, and thus ignored
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Schnitz snarfed, always a first, this might work, reblogging pgotos inside tumblr and while reblogging, adding the webmention post url... basically 'shooting' stuff out of one silo into anther by just adding http://brid.gy/publish/[silo] when reblogging... pretty cool, should show up my FB test page soon
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snarfed Schnitz++
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Loqi Schnitz has 3 karma
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Schnitz :-)
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Schnitz snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 188 karma
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Schnitz this raises privacy issues (a bit, maybe :-)
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Schnitz she'll show up on FB soon I guess: http://belp.audio/post/136626117972/cephalopodciting-its-fucking-freezing-in-my
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snarfed minorly. her original post is public.
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snarfed but yeah, "different publics"
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Schnitz right
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Schnitz I wasn't worried :-)
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/publics
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/Overlapping_publics
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Schnitz you could always copy'n'paste manually, but thats little more 'active', and you feel 'you're doing something'. It being automated adds a new level of fluidity.
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Schnitz interesting Wiki articles, thanks for sharing, snarfed
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: see my comment to tantek above
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jedahan woohoo! setup my first authoritative nameserver, yay!
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Loqi woot
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Schnitz snarfed: so I'll file my feature request for h-entry parsing directly instead of RSS under snarfed / bridgy on GitHub
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snarfed thanks!
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snarfed specifically, for finding the URLs in blog posts to send webmentions to
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Schnitz https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/590
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snarfed thanks!
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Schnitz nothing to thank
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Schnitz while I was writing this I found a possible super simple solution
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Schnitz since your publish routine *does* fetch the post in HTML already
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Schnitz you could still stay with superfeedr on check the RSS to see whether there is a new post
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Schnitz and get the post with your publish routine *regardless* of webmentions, just to see whether in the HTML representation there are webmention <a href=""> and then publish
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snarfed hmm, i don't quite follow
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snarfed new posts don't trigger publish
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snarfed the webmention to brid.gy/publish/... triggers publish
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Schnitz superfeedr calls the webmention?
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snarfed no, bridgy does. but it looks in the content it gets from superfeedr to determine which URLs to send wms to
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snarfed that's the problem here, since you don't have a way to tell tumblr to always add the bridgy publish URL to your post content
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Schnitz right right
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Schnitz ok I was jumping ahead...
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Schnitz ... I had thought implementation wise, since you already have code behind those webmention url grabbing the post as HTML, you could use that and modify it to a 'webmention detect' URL, so when bridgy gets something from Tumblr you then first throw it against that and find the actual webmention URL in the HTML, but thats an implementation detail I cannot foresee of course, sorry for that
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snarfed right, i see what you mean
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snarfed right now tumblr webmentions and publish are separate features, they don't trigger each other like that
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snarfed i could definitely add that though. feel free to file a feature request! :P
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Schnitz hmmm... isn't that just a possible implementation of feature request / issue 590 I just filed?
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.joschmidt.net/2016/hello-world---and-thank-you commented 'Hello World - and thank you ...' on a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/
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Schnitz I am very happy to extend the wording of issue 590 text-wise to cover this idea as a possible way of dealing with this, if its any help, snarfed
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snarfed they're definitely related! this one sounded like triggering publish specifically. 590 sounds like fetching HTML to get all URLs, including outside of content.
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snarfed either one would do what you want
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Schnitz thats very smart and correct, they are related but have a common share in functionality
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Schnitz snarfed: I'll think about it over dinner, but back in 1 hour .-)
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@ShaneHudson @film_girl https://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/684120357066915841)
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KevinMarks not really a jf2 to html at the moment, unless you count xoxo
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KevinMarks I cna take http://www.unmung.com/mf2tojs2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unmung.com%2Fmf2%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Ftantek.com&pretty=on
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KevinMarks hm, and xoxo disagrees with jf2 an=bout whata url should be
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@erlenzeisig Yet another instance of @withknown: http://blog.joschmidt.net/ #indieweb Hello world. (twitter.com/_/status/684124971493404673)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: that link gives me an internal server error
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KevinMarks try now, it needs to cache parsing tantk
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KevinMarks then I can HTMLise it liek this http://www.unmung.com/jsontoxoxo?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unmung.com%2Fmf2tojs2%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.unmung.com%252Fmf2%253Furl%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Ftantek.com%26pretty%3Don
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KevinMarks but it isn't mf2 aware
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KevinMarks so not quite what you want
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, it seems to have lost the authors and has it just as a general children object
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ben_thatmustbeme with no type
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ben_thatmustbeme oh nevermind, thats the way it actually is
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ben_thatmustbeme "type": "x"
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ben_thatmustbeme heh
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ben_thatmustbeme should probably be x-username
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ben_thatmustbeme i feel like we should probably do a side by side comparison of the mf2->jf2 converters now
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snarfed Schnitz: fixed your facebook publish formatting bug. line breaks and whitespace should be preserved now.
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/baconmeteor/status/683007431920648192
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@baconmeteor The only satisfaction of writing HTML by hand like an animal is that people twist themselves in knots trying to figure out your toolchain (twitter.com/_/status/683007431920648192)
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Schnitz snarfed: a-w-e-s-o-m-e! Also I just added our appended communication onto Issue 590 https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/590
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Schnitz since they come from the same Use Case, I figures over dinner, opening a second feature request would result in Feature Creep
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Schnitz so I just added a NOTE to 590
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Schnitz snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 189 karma
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[snarfed] thanks!
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Schnitz most welcome
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jkphl.is edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+277) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /jf2 (+19) "/* Example */ missing type:card" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich #phdchat #digitalhumanities #highered Helping physicist John Baez transition: G+ -> #indieweb @WordPress; see notes https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/MYiSb1m4YtX (twitter.com/_/status/684136530474975232)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /jf2 (+12) "/* Example */ wm-property is in no way required for jf2" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /jf2 (+218) "/* Implementations */ add socialstreams implementation" (view diff)
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KevinMarks it is probably about time we made some mf2/jf2 test cases, yes
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snarfed filed https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/59
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loqi.me created /Vanilla_JS (+288) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /Vanilla_JS (-16) (view diff)
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@t @davidascher cool. #indieweb community has made great progress on this. Let’s talk more in #indiewebcamp Freenode IRC. (ttk.me t4f41) (twitter.com/_/status/684143697496162304)
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jkphl.is edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+351) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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@t @davidascher cool. #indieweb community has made great progress on this. Let’s talk more in #indiewebcamp Freenode IRC. (ttk.me t4f41) (twitter.com/_/status/684144187713818624)
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Schnitz My first POSSE PHOTO repost tumblr -> fb came thru perfectly clear, all beautiful, whitespace handling, etc. thanks to snarfed, bridgy & webmention: https://www.facebook.com/BELP-957543644328212/
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@indiewebcamp RT @misuba: @anildash #indieweb :-) (twitter.com/_/status/684148025061588992)
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snarfed woo congrats Schnitz!
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Schnitz to you too snarfed! :-)
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Schnitz Now just gotta get rid of the webmention URL in message body out day are I'm all set (no rush!) :-)
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snarfed i was just about to say!
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Schnitz ;)
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snarfed you can keep the link but remove the text inside it, should work ok
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snarfed but only if tumblr lets you author that kind of html
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Schnitz yeah it does
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Schnitz I copy'n'pasted the link this time
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acegiak morning, all
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snarfed hey acegiak
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Schnitz hey ace
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tantek catches up on logs.
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Loqi tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 2 hours, 34 minutes ago: i had a chance to look at that issue again, it would have shown the author if it had a type value for the author. if there is no type, its not in the correct format, and thus ignored http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-01-04/line/1451939694582
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I think I'm still not understanding where the problem might be - is there an assumption of what a particular post type has / doesn't have?
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@indiewebcamp RT @jkphl: ❤ly reminder: Did you register for the @indiewebcamp Nuremberg, April 16th? Pls don't forget the guest list then ☞ https://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/684153366469939201)
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@indiewebcamp RT @kevinmarks: @h0d3r we're doing that over at http://indiewebcamp.com - come join us (twitter.com/_/status/684153745089810432)
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davidascher hi y'all. tantek mentioned on twitter that people have been thinking about how to federate the stream, in response to a tweet of mine. I haven't written up what I had in mind yet, but I'm happy to start by reading what others have done.
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tantek welcome davidascher !
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davidascher thx tantek.
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tantek davidascher: a good place to start is what do you mean from (your) user perspective? what user feature are you talking about implicitly when you say "federate the stream"
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davidascher tantek: sure, let me try and blather a few lines, see if it helps.
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davidascher I'm assuming that I have a network of people willing to work in cooperation, and in particular happy to defer any questions of monetization.
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tantek (davidascher aside: each my @-replies to you actually originated on my own site, tantek.com, which then automatically syndicated those to Twitter so you would see it, a type of forced-silo-federation as it were)
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davidascher I've found that there have been some interesting UX advances in the world of blogging, both w/ medium and wordpress, which lead me while reading one piece to reading other related pieces.
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tantek recommendations?
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davidascher I'd like to explore whether there's a way to foster that kind of reading content that may be originally hosted on different, unsiloed blogs, but with the same continuity of reading that these silos have built.
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tantek is this "related reading" ?
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davidascher IOW, could I make ghost or wordpress.org find related content via an explicit author-managed or (ideally) reader-influenced network of related content.
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davidascher yes, related reading.
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tantek a-ha that's very different than what I *thought* you meant by "federating the stream" - glad I asked!
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davidascher where the blog UI ends up aggregating blog content from a set of different REST endpoints or RSS feeds or…
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tantek ... just homepages
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KevinMarks the story cards idea is a bit like that
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tantek davidascher: one thing the indieweb community has proven is that no separate REST endpoints nor RSS feeds are needed, if you do a little bit of work on your home page
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KevinMarks that was based on the silo presentation of related stories
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tantek there's alot of "what is the minimum viable ... " here
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tantek davidascher: but to answer your question, I don't know of anyone yet on their own site where they have some sort of (semi?)automated "Related Reading" function to articles on *other* sites.
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tantek I've seen plugins that do automatic "related reading" from amongst your own posts, but you're clearly talking about something beyond that
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davidascher KevinMarks: url for story cards?
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davidascher yea, I'm specifically looking at related reading as a way of dealing w/ the UX failure that (I consider) feed readers, but with the same silo-tunneling goal.
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KevinMarks what are storycards?
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Loqi storycards are the 'related articles' previews often shown at the bottom of pages by publishers https://indiewebcamp.com/storycards
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snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/recommendation_engine
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davidascher and in particular based on the UX innovation which IMO seems to work OK on Medium.
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davidascher Ah, thx, Loqi.
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KevinMarks I have a storycard render from an hfeed
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/storycard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.ascher.ca%2F
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KevinMarks works better if you have p-summary or u-featured in the entries
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/storycard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks which I have started adding
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davidascher These still (and I understand why) assume that the reader is ok w/ shifting from site to site to read new content.
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KevinMarks are you thinking of a reader presentation?
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davidascher What I'm wondering is whether we can turn a blog into a thing that doesn't just display the article from that one blog but also a front-end that can display content from other sites. It does presume that 'article' is a content type.
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davidascher In particular, I'm wondering not whether it's technically possible (it obviously is, provided enough effort), but whether people have thought about ways to do decentralized recommendation systems beyond "webrings".
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snarfed i bet we could do it stumbleupon's API, or something similar
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davidascher I think I should probably write it up as a post.
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snarfed we definitely like decentralized interactions here, but we don't mind using centralized services to mediate those interactions
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snarfed recommendation engine is a great example. hard to do fully decentralized.
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tantek I really want to put this at the top of /database-antipattern : https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/684158554035466245
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@SwiftOnSecurity All I know about Paul Graham is he uses static HTML pages instead of Wordpress and that makes him smarter than most of us. (twitter.com/_/status/684158554035466245)
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davidascher snarfed: yup, that could work. Another thing I was wondering about is local spidering of a twitter graph for example -- look at who the author follows on twitter, check their home page for appropriate content, suggest that.
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tantek davidascher: a good way to start broader thinking about this is to document the existing "related reading" UIs that you are seeing
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snarfed sure! doable. just expensive and nontrivial for everyone to do themselves. begs to be amortized.
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tantek so let's start with that
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tantek what is related reading?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "related reading" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10An
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tantek davidascher: ^^^
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davidascher sure thing.
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tantek what is a static site?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/static-site
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tantek and I'll fix that one
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davidascher snarfed: q: how critical is it for "everyone to do themselves" in this community? I assume we're all using some OSS software and not requiring everyone to host baremetal and hand-craft html pages yea?
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tantek davidascher: it's a spectrum.
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snarfed tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 266 karma
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tantek there is no "everyone to host baremetal" assumption
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tantek nor is there "we're all using some OSS software" assumption
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tantek BOTH assumptions are bad
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snarfed yup. in general we support all different levels of hosting. the one constant is that people need their own domain. that's what enables owning your data, migrating, etc.
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snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting
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petermolnar snarfed about the owning the domain thing: I'm still sad that there is no way to actually "own" a domain; at best you're renting it for a while. Except for .onion, where you get a random generated string; that, in theory, you do own.
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petermolnar (that doesn't change the need of a domain though)
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davidascher tantek: fair 'nnuf.
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tantek.com edited /static-site (+340) "fix dfn, quote securitay, see also" (view diff)
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davidascher Trying to setup my domain as indieweb, tried the indieweb plugin for wordpress. It's not super clear what that plugin actually _does_ =)
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tantek what is the indieweb plugin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indieweb plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ao
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snarfed davidascher: sorry, yeah, that plugin is kinda deprecated. we now recommend that you install the webmention and semantic-linkbacks plugins individually instead
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davidascher snarfed: ok, th.
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davidascher th
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davidascher thx
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snarfed mind letting GWG know what told you to install that plugin? he's talked about updating those docs
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tantek snarfed, really? then could you update these? https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Adding_Indieweb_Support.2FElements_to_a_WordPress_Site
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petermolnar davidascher for wordpress: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress
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tantek snarfed, yes, and that one ^^^
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davidascher petermolnar: thx
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tantek both of those pages say to install the IndieWeb plugin first
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davidascher none of those seem to do what I was actually trying to do, which is to let me add rel="me" to links on my homepage.
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tantek snarfed, where on the wiki does it say "we now recommend that you install the webmention and semantic-linkbacks plugins individually instead" ? or how new is that recommendations?
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snarfed.org edited /WordPress (-216) "/* Adding Indieweb Support/Elements to a WordPress Site */ remove indieweb plugin" (view diff)
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davidascher which the WP UI doesn't seem to let me do.
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snarfed tantek: i haven't followed all this in detail. GWG pfefferle etc are more up to date than me
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petermolnar davidascher you're right, that is not part of those plugins; it's usually part of the theme
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petermolnar at least in my case
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snarfed ...and actually i'm going to revert that edit, for that reason. hopefully GWG can confirm when he's back