#indiewebcamp 2016-02-26

2016-02-26 UTC
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snarfed kylewm: this reminded me of us and silo apis :P https://twitter.com/nelson/status/703003933355028480
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@nelson That thing where the test case you use extensively in your program has enshrined in it the incorrect expected output. (twitter.com/_/status/703003933355028480)
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@dbounds @aaronpk where the participants only relationship to each other was an ephemeral interest in a common topic. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/703008829370404864)
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@aaronpk @dbounds Okay yeah that's how IndieNews works. Syndicating via webmention, no pre-established relationship needed. (twitter.com/_/status/703009070446309376)
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kylewm snarfed: haha yes!
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@dbounds @aaronpk interesting. This wasn’t apparent to me when reading the WebMentions spec. (twitter.com/_/status/703009409706934276)
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tantek benwerd, kylewm does Known have a "Submit to IndieNews" button/plugin?
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benwerd It doesn't
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Loqi benwerd: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 5 minutes ago: do you think we could host HWC at Matter on 3/23? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-25/line/1456438215415
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tantek aaronpk: does IndieNews have categories like the Reddit /r/ hierarchy?
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aaronpk only for languages, although I kinda want to add arbitrary categories now
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tantek or perhaps /tag/criminal-justice-reform :D
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tantek instead of /r/
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aaronpk each language has its own list of posts http://news.indiewebcamp.com/en vs http://news.indiewebcamp.com/de for example
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Loqi [gregorlove.com] Quite pleased to officially release a Webmention plugin for @ProcessWire: https://github.com/gRegorLove/ProcessWire-Webmention #indieweb
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Loqi [nueww.de] IndieWeb — Unsere Daten. Unser Netz.
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tantek whoa cool
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tantek presumably hashtags could be used to populate the indienews /tag/***
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aaronpk for sure
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee As for alternatives: these folks are on the leading edge of it: http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/703047759654420480)
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@michaelsoolee @olivermakes oooo this looks cool. what exactly does indiewebcamp do? (twitter.com/_/status/703048103868309504)
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee But also things like webmentions (partly getting at the original question). Check out @adactio’s site https://adactio.com/journal/9261 (twitter.com/_/status/703048877847351296)
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tantek interesting start to that thread: https://twitter.com/michaelsoolee/status/702979673102245889 (Twitter survey)
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@michaelsoolee For personal blogs, should comments be turned on or off? (twitter.com/_/status/702979673102245889)
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee To some degree, yeah: http://indiewebcamp.com/disqus (although indieweb folks are open-minded, generally) (twitter.com/_/status/703049316953415680)
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[oliverpattison] :simple_smile: feel free to jump in there if I’ve got anything arong
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KartikPrabhu i was about to ;)
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KartikPrabhu very nice discussion so far
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[oliverpattison] s/arong/wrong
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Loqi [oliverpattison] meant to say: :simple_smile: feel free to jump in there if I’ve got anything wrong
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[oliverpattison] I ran into Michael on the Jekyll forums
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KartikPrabhu you should invite him to the IRC
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[oliverpattison] https://twitter.com/michaelsoolee/status/703049739403571200
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@michaelsoolee @olivermakes cool man this looks super! going to dig into it some more :) (twitter.com/_/status/703049739403571200)
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee By the way, the friendly folks on indiewebcamp folks say hi on IRC if you have any questions! 👍 http://indiewebcamp.com/discuss (twitter.com/_/status/703051243481006081)
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tantek very cool oliverpattison - thanks much!
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee I’m still figuring out how to port more indieweb + social features to my Jekyll site. I’ll let you know how it goes. (twitter.com/_/status/703051814069891072)
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee They have Slack integration if you prefer (I do) https://indiewebcamp.com/Slack (twitter.com/_/status/703053452327260160)
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@olivermakes @michaelsoolee See, indieweb folks are flexible like the web itself. Welcoming community! (twitter.com/_/status/703053906008481792)
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Loqi [bridgy] Scott Gilbertson replied '@aaronpk I prefer mailing list signups to incessantly beg via some kind of conte...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week (https://twitter.com/luxagraf/status/703032485890883584)
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KartikPrabhu is confused. What pop up is that referring to ^?
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[oliverpattison] I think he was joking about the anti-pattern of annoying mailing list asks
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[oliverpattison] contrasted with a polite suggestion on Twitter
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KartikPrabhu oh Isee
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@ChrisAldrich RT @fakebaldur Anybody who is interested in the Open Web but isn't paying attention to https://indiewebcamp.com/ isn't, actually, paying attention. (twitter.com/_/status/703073703140065281)
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@photomatt RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703074079604142080)
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@wp_digest RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703074521398558720)
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@wjmaggos RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703075873662971905)
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@tchambers RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703076294267904000)
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tantek O HAI PHOTOMATT
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tantek We'll see about "easily". Might need to build /Vouch support into Wordpress.com at day 1 (if not day 0) of /Webmention support.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: per retweeting this as well: https://twitter.com/jenndangerous/status/702680120524455936
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@jenndangerous sincere thanks to anyone who has never emailed me (twitter.com/_/status/702680120524455936)
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snarfed eh. existing anti-spam plugins (eg akismet) work fine on webmentions too. vouch would still be great! just more like an addition/successor than the only option
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@CinnamonGraphic RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703080665324122112)
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@ChrisAldrich @jdblundell @photomatt @WordPress @automattic Akismet filters out webspam from webmentions exactly the same way it works for comments (twitter.com/_/status/703080900045606912)
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Loqi [indieweb] "@jdblundell @photomatt @WordPress @automattic In fact, if anything Akismet is actually even more aggressive than it ought to be for webmentions. #indieweb" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/jdblundell-photomatt-wordpress-automattic-in-fact-if-anything-akismet-is
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@yovko RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703086244083929088)
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@scatteredbrainV Remember WordPress' Pingbacks? The W3C wants us to use them across the whole web http://m.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web/ #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/703090817800343555)
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tantek.com edited /p3k_naming_convention (+146) "Chronicle for news reader, Dirigible for import/export tool" (view diff)
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Loqi [indieweb] "@jussipekonen says when ADN closes he'll rely on his website and micro-blog. So I need to make sure he gathers the reply I make from" by Jeremy Cherfas https://vaviblog.com/2016/jussipekonen-says-when-adn-closes-hell-rely-on-his-website
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Loqi [indieweb] "Remember WordPress' Pingbacks? The W3C wants us to use them across the whole web" https://twitter.com/scatteredbrainV/status/703090817800343555
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@carlostalaga @WcGullit POSSE https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/703101876791738368)
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@megarush1024 RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703106178675449856)
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[kevinmarks] I was thinking about vouch, and it would make sense to start sending vouches by default for easy cases
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[kevinmarks] Eg if you are in a back and forth reply thread, a vouch is very easy
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tantek hence why ben started to do so
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tantek no, once you have back/forth replied once, vouch is no longer needed
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tantek because you're already linking directly to each other
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tantek vouch is only needed for 2nd degree contact
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[kevinmarks] Hm
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tantek 2nd or nth
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tantek point being, if someone has already linked to you, you don't need to send them a vouch to comment on their stuff
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tantek by implication of them linking to you, they are saying they are ok hearing from you
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tantek in the exceptional cases where you no longer want to hear from someone, you add them to a block list, at which point it doesn't matter whether they send a vouch or not
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[kevinmarks] But does the webmention receiver know that history?
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[kevinmarks] If it is sent as a vouch it can be directly verified
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tantek yes it was obv from very early vouch implementations that having a cache of who you've linked to is very handy, at which point you don't need those people to send you vouches
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tantek I think we figured that out at /2014/Cambridge
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tantek though I suppose even in those 1st degree cases, the webmention sender could send *that* as a vouch. like hey target, here's where you yourself vouched for me by linking to me
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[kevinmarks] Right
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@jkphl RT @nueww We're meeting for a #IndieWebCamp in Nuremberg for two days of brainstorming, working, teaching, helping. http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/703110072461701120)
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tantek point being that in practice that's not necessary, because everyone that started coding vouch support, independently, first ended up building a cache of *who* (domains) they'd linked to previously
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@didziskrumins RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703113244559306752)
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[kevinmarks] I'm thinking about 3rd party webmention services too though;
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[kevinmarks] And also if people see vouches arriving, they'll be more likely to implement them
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Loqi [indieweb] "Last night: indieweb published a video and for the first time automatically POSSEd it to 3 silos thanks to Brid.gy: Facebook, Flickr, and Twitter: tantek.com/2016/055/t12/fast-walk-hike-beach-video" http://tantek.com/2016/056/t1/indieweb-published-video-automatically-possed
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tantek.com edited /snarkinition (-20) "-CSSframework since it has a real definition now" (view diff)
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@nash1ye RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703123914784780288)
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Loqi [mention] Kartik Prabhu commented '@olivermakes @michaelsoolee not against Disqus as a policy. Indiewebcamp is mai...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-against-disqus)
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KartikPrabhu late manual webmention ^
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KartikPrabhu https://timkadlec.com/2016/02/a-standardized-alternative-to-amp/ can't this be solved by microformats?
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Loqi — February 24, 2016 —CPP: A Standardized Alternative to AMP
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KartikPrabhu Loqi needs \n awareness
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@nueww Das #IndieWeb - Unsere Daten. Unser Netz. http://nueww.de/blog/article/Post/show/indieweb-unsere-daten-unser-netz-96/d9b831d86e233f016654c5f4cf56618d/ #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/703128699256774660)
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@jkphl RT @nueww Das #IndieWeb - Unsere Daten. Unser Netz. http://nueww.de/blog/article/Post/show/indieweb-unsere-daten-unser-netz-96/d9b831d86e233f016654c5f4cf56618d/ #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/703129138853359616)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: isn't CPP about informing the browser up-front that certain assumptions/optimizations are possible on the content, while microformats are about formatting the content?
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: I thought the whole point was for third parties to parse the content not browsers. maybe I am confused?
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@voxpelli @olivermakes @michaelsoolee There are Disqus-like (+ Jekyll-friendly) IndieWeb tools, like my WebMention service: https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/703140032408743937)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: no third party parses AMP-data, it's rendered in ordinary browsers unlike instant articles
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KartikPrabhu browers render AMP directly?
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: here's two articles from The Verge, one is an AMP-one and one is an ordinary one:
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voxpelli http://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/2/24/11095776/google-amp-facebook-instant-articles
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voxpelli http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/24/11095776/google-amp-facebook-instant-articles
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voxpelli the amp-one can be found through a link-tag on the ordinary one
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voxpelli and that's basically it
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KartikPrabhu yes but do browsers render AMP or is it just for Google to consume
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cjk101010 AMP is, on client side, a JavaScript doing some rendering and prefetching with "fold" awareness
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cjk101010 so it is not only for google but also used to serve content to the browser
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voxpelli yeah, everyone can find an AMP-alternative of a page and load that one instead
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KartikPrabhu I don't get it. What is the difference between AMP an plain old HTML+CSS+JS then?
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KartikPrabhu i mean why is AMP an "alternative"?
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: it enforces some very strict rules on how stuff is loaded (everything should be async) and what css is allowed etc – and ships with eg. a validator to enforce it
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KartikPrabhu so why not do it with just usual HTML+CSS+JS ?
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voxpelli not even an <img>-tag is allowed, it needs to use an AMP web component instead
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sknebel it *is* HTML+CSS+JS
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KartikPrabhu why do we need this gate-keeping by Google
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sknebel because it is easy for google?
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sknebel If they control all scripts/dynamic elements that are loaded
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sknebel (there is a central repository)
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voxpelli there is no gate-keeping really, it's just that Google says it will promote these pages higher and that means organizations get the leverage they need to force ad-platforms to take actions
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KartikPrabhu oh ok so you write some dumb thing Google invented and append their Javascript to render their components so much for js; dr
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: that is not a convincing argument ;)
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KartikPrabhu decides to ignore AMP
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voxpelli well, open-graph was apparently built the way it was to circumvent the SEO-people, so technical solutions to organization problems wouldn't really be the first time
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cjk101010 sknebel, in fact it is a derivation of HTML (HTML with loads of custom elements) for allowing the AMP runtime JS to load on demand instead of prefetching (or the other way round - IIRC they use a heuristic to decide)
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cjk101010 but yes, I ignore it, too
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sknebel cjk101010: well, it is valid HTML + JS, browsers can run it without extra support
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sknebel a nicer way would be to have browsers understand it
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sknebel and enforce the rulesthemselves
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sknebel which is what the CPP proposal seems to be about
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cjk101010 yes, but they won't see much but the text ;-) even images are loaded via custom elements. but yeah, it is valid HTML5
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voxpelli well, browsers don't need to support AMP to load the AMP-js and the custom elements
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voxpelli but mostly: CPP doesn't compete with microformats but would rather enable non-js microformatted-pages to have similar performance as AMP-pages
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sknebel https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/blob/master/extensions/README.md here is the list of currently supported AMP extensions
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sknebel makes pretty clear who the target is
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cjk101010 what is CPP, do you have a link? it is a bad acronym to search for
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CPP, do you have a link" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10FB
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sknebel https://timkadlec.com/2016/02/a-standardized-alternative-to-amp/
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Loqi — February 24, 2016 —CPP: A Standardized Alternative to AMP
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cjk101010 thanks
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@npmaddict node-webmention-testendpoint: A tool to test your webmention clients. https://github.com/pfefferle/node-webmention-testendpoint (twitter.com/_/status/703150358227341314)
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voxpelli yeah, AMP like instant articles is mostly targeted at really ad-heavy newspapers and such
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@mschottenhammer RT @nueww We're meeting for a #IndieWebCamp in Nuremberg for two days of brainstorming, working, teaching, helping. http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/703194728703995906)
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@ReadersGazette BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.jimheskett.com/indieauth Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 27 (twitter.com/_/status/703195314077839361)
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@Weifarer RT @ReadersGazette BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.jimheskett.com/indieauth Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 27 (twitter.com/_/status/703209578889138176)
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@alan_zimm RT @fakebaldur Anybody who is interested in the Open Web but isn't paying attention to https://indiewebcamp.com/ isn't, actually, paying attention. (twitter.com/_/status/703238498166444032)
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@davidmead Hey @schnarfed. Your Huffduff-video was mentioned on The Dalrymple Report podcast :-) /cc @jdalrymple @hotdogsladies #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/703244868366151680)
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[kevinmarks] AMP is a disarmament pact in the ad wars mainly.
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[kevinmarks] Thing is, they didn't need to make the img audio and video js components to do what they wanted, but that was the mechanism they had in place
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KartikPrabhu do they also have a <p> component?
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KartikPrabhu <sarcasm>
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sknebel not yet. but there are ones for loading tracking pixels, ads and paywall-banners
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KartikPrabhu the future is here: http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/25/facebook-canvas-ads/
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KartikPrabhu waits for Google to launch AMA = Accelerated Mobile Ads
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kylewm any idea why only four entries on http://tantek.com right now?
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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kylewm thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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petermolnar KartikPrabhu and when Facebook blocks a business account for {random} reasons, that business can close down, now that all the ads and their content is served by FB. So: how to #indieweb for business?
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[kevinmarks] There is an ad component in AMP
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kylewm KevinMarks: KartikPrabhu: did you realize html5lib uses lxml if lxml is installed?
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bear html5lib and bs4 both allow for the xml engine it uses to be specified IIRC
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bear so things really speed up with the lxml installed
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KartikPrabhu yes
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KartikPrabhu but lxml parses differently than others
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bear hmm, differently as in missing content or different order of results?
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KartikPrabhu lxml parses <noscript> but html5lib does not for example
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bear did you test lxml.html.html5parser to see if it helps with that - the html5parser of lxml uses html5lib
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[kevinmarks] So we're using bs4 that uses html5lib that uses lxml?
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bear probably
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bear you can also specify bs4 via lxml.html.soupparser IIRC
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KevinMarks so, dis anyone else sign up for the Launch hackathon?
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@awoods RT @fakebaldur Anybody who is interested in the Open Web but isn't paying attention to https://indiewebcamp.com/ isn't, actually, paying attention. (twitter.com/_/status/703283063770316803)
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aaronpk i'm gonna need a dirigible to export all my Flickr photos soon
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snarfed dirigible++ word of the day
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Loqi dirigible has 1 karma
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@jkphl Yay! Our @indiewebcamp mentioned on the @nuernberg_de city portal as part of the @nueww schedule https://www.nuernberg.de/internet/stadtportal/web_week_nueww.html (twitter.com/_/status/703285872771403777)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu bear KevinMarks: for context, we're looking at the mf2/bs4 parser because we're seeing pages in the wild that take 350ms fetch but then 1500ms to parse :(:(:(
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Loqi it'll be ok
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/578#issuecomment-189361506
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snarfed wow ok Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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KevinMarks I saw the same thing - the parse can be very slow
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KevinMarks tanteks site was noticably slow iirc
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: to answer your question: yes. lxml is "Faster" and so html5lib prefers that
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: by "parse" you mean mf2 parse or just HTML parse?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: all of the above, plus other compute. it's not a precise measurement, but we believe most of it is html+mf2
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snarfed just a handful of samples in one request, but still pretty egregious
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu any pattern in those pages? complicated DOM structure?
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snarfed probably!
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snarfed kylewm may know which site it was
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snarfed i'm guessing it wasn't an exception though
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snarfed (afaik it was a random sample, not an outlier)
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KevinMarks tantek takes ~ 1s now
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bear I have a lot of cached html pages if we ever want to run a multiple sample comparison
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KevinMarks wow, parsing the in our time feed takes 11 seconds
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KartikPrabhu 11s!
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KartikPrabhu it would be good to know if this is a python problem or if php parsers also take that long
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KevinMarks kye's site is winngin now
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KevinMarks 10:46:13.653 mf2parseWithCaching: - parsing 'https://kylewm.com/' 10:46:41.944 mf2parseWithCaching: setting memcache etag 'None' lastmod 'Fri, 26 Feb 2016 14:05:27 GMT'
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Loqi Ruh roh
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KevinMarks 28 seconds
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KevinMarks hm wordpress sites are in the same range
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KartikPrabhu what the what!
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KevinMarks 10:46:14.459 mf2parseWithCaching: - parsing 'http://chocolateandvodka.com/' 10:46:45.442 mf2parseWithCaching: setting memcache etag 'None' lastmod 'None'
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KevinMarks 31s
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@nueww RT @jkphl Yay! Our @indiewebcamp mentioned on the @nuernberg_de city portal as part of the @nueww schedule https://www.nuernberg.de/internet/stadtportal/web_week_nueww.html (twitter.com/_/status/703291248732413952)
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KevinMarks maybe doing this in python isn't the best way…
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KartikPrabhu it is almost immediate on kylewm's hosted parser
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KartikPrabhu http://mf2.kylewm.com/
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kylewm Guessing that's the difference between having lxml installed or not
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bear that was my thought
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KartikPrabhu aah I see
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KartikPrabhu your html5lib parser is directly using lxml
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kylewm Even with lxml, parsing is an order of magnitude slower than fetching(!) This stuff defies my intuition
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kylewm snarfed, we should try adding lxml to bridgy's requirements
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[kevinmarks] I was preferring html5lib for accuracy,
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snarfed sheesh, agreed, terrible
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[kevinmarks] what is the config I need to chain bs4 ->html5lib -> lxml then?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "config I need to chain bs4 ->html5lib -> lxml then" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10FC
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snarfed kylewm: sure! adding lxml to bridgy sgtm
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snarfed looks like it's on app engine, https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/tools/libraries27#runtime-libraries , and we already delcare it in our app.yaml, so we just need to tell bs4/mf2py to use it
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[kevinmarks] both bridgy and unmung have lxml latest in their app.yaml
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snarfed jinx :P
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bear bs4.BeautifulSoup(html, 'lxml')
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[kevinmarks] are you doing something different on mf2.kylewm.com?
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[kevinmarks] iirc lxml gave differnt results than html5lib sometimes
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bear yes, KartikPrabhu pointed out the <noscript> difference earlier
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Loqi [indieweb] "
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Loqi [indieweb] "
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kylewm But I'm saying still use html5lib to parse, I.e. don't pass 'lxml' to BeautifulSoup
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kylewm If it's already in appengine, probably nothing we can do
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snarfed kylewm: if we don't want lxml available, we can remove its declaration from app.yaml
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kylewm The best performance I got was *with* lxml on the classpath, but explicitly using html5lib as the backing parser for beautifulsoup
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snarfed got it
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@kylewmahan I was not expecting to have a long conversation with my therapist today about why it's important to me to have my own website #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/703303175445450752)
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benwerd Hey, slightly off-topic request, but does anyone know any great node.js developers looking for work? (Preferably, but not necessarily, in New York)
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singpolyma benwerd: haha
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benwerd A news startup I work with is looking
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singpolyma you and every other company ;)
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benwerd Nah, man, I'm a PHP CEO \oo/
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singpolyma Oh, I didn't mean stack
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singpolyma I just meant hiring
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singpolyma stack is fungible
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benwerd mm
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benwerd Meanwhile, at Known, we just wish we were hiring
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singpolyma I guess a bit early for you guys yet
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: did you mean that the BS4 option should be html5lib but have lxml installed for fast parsing?
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kylewm yes
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KartikPrabhu ok I think that is what I'm doing on my site too
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bear my concern is that the bs4+html5lib is the slowest combination
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kylewm html5lib itself *uses* lxml if lxml is installed. in my admittedly limited testing, it seemed comparable to using lxml directly
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bear ah, that isn't very clear on the bs4's doc pages
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kylewm no
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bear goes to adjust ronkyuu's use of bs4 to match
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@WendyandCharles ReadersGazette: BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.jimheskett.com/indieauth Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 27 (twitter.com/_/status/703198193564172289)
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[kevinmarks] Biggest api prizes for the launch hackathon are from esri and .club
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk guess that means i can't participate ;)
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aaronpk I don't see where the prizes are listed
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[kevinmarks] I'm deciding whether I make the trek up there and build something
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aaronpk http://www.launchfestival.com/blog/2016/2/3/api-partners-for-the-launch-hackathon-february-26-28-2016
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[kevinmarks] So can we use Homebrewwebsite.club?
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aaronpk i forgot who registered that, lol
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[kevinmarks] Tbh, the categories don't really inspire me.
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[kevinmarks] Oh, radix have a decent prize for their tlds too http://www.radix.website/tlds/generic.php
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[jgarber] aaronpk: :waves: That’d be this guy right here.
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aaronpk ah nice
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aaronpk btw stickers are in transit to you now!
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[jgarber] aaronpk: Also, thanks for the IWC stickers! They arrived in the mail the other day.
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aaronpk oh yay!
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Loqi woot
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[jgarber] aaronpk++ for stickers!
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Loqi aaronpk has 81 karma
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tantek kylewm: why four entries. experimenting with home page feed and Atom feed file.
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[shaners] Seems like someone should grab *indie.web* as well.
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aaronpk that's a thing?
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[shaners] According to kevinmarks link http://www.radix.website/tlds/generic.php
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aaronpk it's taken apparently
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tantek tries to filter talk of new domains
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[shaners] Oh. Looks like it’s not live yet.
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aaronpk ah
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[shaners] Maybe we should make a little slush fund that anyone could chip in on to gobble up domains that would be good to get to avoid someone else making something confusing at?
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[shaners] The way ind.ie is
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aaronpk or like indieweb.biz lol
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benwerd (I tried to get a bunch of indie domains the other day, but they were all gone)
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[kevinmarks] How about mention.web?
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[kevinmarks] Tantek: parse time on your homepage is much quicker now
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tantek interesting
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tantek by what x factor?
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: sure that's not just because it's only showing four entries now? :P
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tantek snarfed: of course that's the key factor, I'm wondering how much faster
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snarfed tantek: so that was intentional?
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tantek snarfed, yes, doing some experiments with home page and feed file
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[jgarber] tantek: Looking pretty good => http://www.webpagetest.org/result/160226_MY_18BM/
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KevinMarks it was about 25s before and about 4s now
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KevinMarks yes, those parse times are worryingly slow
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tantek indeed, way too many requests, I have some work to do
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tantek CPP sounds like a promising idea and a good way to solve a specific problem openly rather than jump into Google's AMP.
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[jgarber] tantek: For those 16x16 icons you could do a couple of things… 1) Run them through ImageOptim (https://imageoptim.com) and get some lossless compression, 2) move them into your CSS instead of inline as `<img>` elements, and/or 3) base64 the optimized PNGs and serve them inline (either in CSS or as `<img>`s.
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aaronpk should probably inline his 16px icons. there are a ton
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tantek jgarber - they're not even my icons - they're from a "free" library so I should look into how they may have updated serving options like one of those
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tantek what are social media icons?
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Loqi social media icon set is a collection of icons for various services, typically silos, that you can use on your homepage to link to your profiles on those sites https://indiewebcamp.com/social_media_icons
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tantek ^^^
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KevinMarks did you see github went SVG for theirs?
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tantek do you have a resource you can add to that page?
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[jgarber] SVG social icons: http://simpleicons.org/#
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tantek speaking of parsing and such, I'd expect those to be even slower
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[shaners] What is CPP?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CPP" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10FD
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petermolnar tantek do you have gzip enabled on every text type? ( js, css, svg, etc. )
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tantek petermolnar: not sure
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tantek is there a validator to test that sort of thing?
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tantek what is gzip?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gzip" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10FE
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[shaners] CPP is Content Performance Policies “a standardized alternative to [[AMP]]”. https://timkadlec.com/2016/02/a-standardized-alternative-to-amp/
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loqi.me created /CPP (+172) "prompted by [shaners] https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-26/line/1456521371450 and dfn added by [shaners]" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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Loqi — February 24, 2016 —CPP: A Standardized Alternative to AMP
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petermolnar tantek http://www.webpagetest.org/result/160226_FS_18P5/5/performance_optimization/#compress_text
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tantek what is performance?
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Loqi Performance typically refers to the speed, responsiveness, and initial load of a website https://indiewebcamp.com/performance
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tantek petermolnar: ^^^ could you add that tool to that page?
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petermolnar also as far as I can tell, you're not using http2 yet, even though litespeed should be able to do it ( https://www.litespeedtech.com/http2-ready/http2-intro )
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tantek I didn't do anything special to enable it no, so likely no
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tantek also a good suggestion to add to /performance
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petermolnar.eu edited /performance (+110) (view diff)
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@vondellswain gonna try to establish myself properly within the indieweb for at least some of the time, soon hopefully, i dig that (twitter.com/_/status/703329901517012992)
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petermolnar I always get an F on image compression :/ every suggestion starts with stripping exif which is definitely not what I want to do with my photos
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benwerd Hmm. The indieweb is way too mainstream. I'm holding out for indiegopher. http://metatalk.metafilter.com/24019/Direct-your-gopher-client-to-gopher-gophermetafiltercom
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aaronpk we can do that
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-02-19.html
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi yay!
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aaronpk hm i thought we had a photo from this week
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tantek we did, two
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aaronpk oh weird that's the wrong link
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-02-26.html
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aaronpk and the photos are there!
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ben_thatmustbeme heh indiegopher
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tantek this is an amazing article: https://tinokremer.nl/2016/235-days-on-the-indieweb-something-changed - mostly I appreciate the sense of inspiration and self-empowerment that it conveys
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Loqi [Tino Kremer] 235 Days on the Indieweb; something changed
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aaronpk i could make a gopher server for indienews pretty easily
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[shaners] But why would you, aaronpk, when you’ve got so many other things to do?
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aaronpk it's true
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aaronpk for the lulz as they say
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tantek add it to the bottom of your itches list ;)
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tantek then someone else can always itch-snipe it
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[shaners] You know what’s better than a million lulz, a billion getting shit done. Or something.
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+141) "/* itching */ gopher lulz" (view diff)
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snarfed some people have a talent for converting lulz into productive gsd-like things
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aaronpk my user page needs some work. only one edit in 2015
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tantek you must be tracking your lists of things to work on / itches somewhere else ;)
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aaronpk yu
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aaronpk p
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snarfed (eg benwerd with http://wavelist.xyz/ and http://knownbot.com/ , kylewm with half the things he's built, etc)
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aaronpk Wunderlist
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tantek I like the public-to-the-community method of tracking these kinds of things
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aaronpk yeah, you used to be able to share a wunderlist publicly, but they disabled that a while ago
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tantek and community-editable even!
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aaronpk adds "publish wunderlist" to his itches
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tantek what is Wunderlist?
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Loqi Wunderlist is an app for managing todo lists, is available for many desktop and mobile platforms, and has an API https://indiewebcamp.com/Wunderlist
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tantek huh, sounds more like a *silo* with an app :P
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aaronpk it's only an app, there's no web component
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tantek where's the data stored?
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aaronpk on your device and it syncs with their servers
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aaronpk oh i guess they launched a web app for it at some point. it looks identical to what i see in the app
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tantek sounds more like, on their servers, viewable with their web app, and syncs with their app on your device(s)
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aaronpk well syncing was added later, it definitely started out as a traditional app that only stored locally
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tantek like gmail
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aaronpk and it still "feels" like you're syncing your local copy, rather than viewing stuff on a remote server
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aaronpk you don't lose any functionality when you're offline, for example
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tantek that's "just" a good offline app ;)
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aaronpk so, not like gmail at all, really
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tantek which I believe gmail can do too
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snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/offline##offline-first
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tantek point being, still a silo
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tantek your data is locked up in their servers, or their app
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aaronpk what is a silo?
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Loqi A silo, or web content hosting silo, in the context of the IndieWeb, is a centralized web site typically owned by a for-profit corporation that stakes some claim to content contributed to it and restricts access in some way (has walls) https://indiewebcamp.com/silo
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aaronpk eh, it's just an app with syncing
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@Bopuc @acroll http://tantek.com/2016/048/b1/going-silo-private-prefer-indieweb / but yeah… it's hard these days… :( (twitter.com/_/status/703336576982581248)
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tantek nah, you're still storing your (private maybe) data on a silo
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tantek it's "just" a private-only silo
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tantek silo doesn't have to be "public"
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aaronpk I don't see why this distinction is useful
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tantek ownership. control. they have it.
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tantek it's the IG about that guys garage
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tantek also, seriously, "to do" in particular? have lost track of the number of to-do apps/silos that have died taking user's data with it
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-02-26.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/703338765859749888/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/703338765859749888)
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tantek aaronpk: I would only trust such an app on a device if it used a folder full of text files as its "storage"
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aaronpk that would be ideal. I suspect this is a sqlite DB tho
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tantek so if the app died, company went away, whatever, I could see my data and use some other app with it
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tantek sqlitedb--
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Loqi sqlitedb has -1 karma
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tantek btw to be clear, this is how I'm building Falcon. It works with text files in a folder(s) on my machine.
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tantek text files you can view in any browser, and edit in any text editor
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tantek long experience has taught me that if you're storing anything text-like, that is *the* user-centrice / portable / longevity way to do it
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tantek s/centrice/centric
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Loqi tantek meant to say: long experience has taught me that if you're storing anything text-like, that is *the* user-centric / portable / longevity way to do it
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tantek longterm I think there is an opportunity to disrupt/replace every single app/site that does NOT do that, with one that does
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kylewm what's wrong with sqlite?
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kylewm just that it's a database?
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snarfed no no kylewm don't do it it's a trap!
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aaronpk haha
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tantek kylewm: in one word, longevity.
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kylewm snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 203 karma
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@jgarber RT @indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-02-26.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/703338765859749888/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/703341673775034368)
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tantek that's impressive - the TWII POSSEing publishes the first photo to Twitter too?
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tantek I vaguely remember kylewm saying he added multi-photo support to silo.pub POSSE to Twitter - we had two photos this week right?
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kylewm oughta work
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@sys_adm_ama @DaddyDahoam Ich meine webmentions und werde jetzt schlafen 💤 🙃 @papapelz @MamaOTR (twitter.com/_/status/703346166101102593)
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aaronpk Oh nice, forgot that Twitter supports multiple photos
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petermolnar can a single h-entry contain more than one u-like-of urls?
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cjk101010 the spec doesn’t say that a property has to be unique and all property values are an array
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cjk101010 so I don’t see any reason it shouldn’t
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gregorlove.com created /TWIIW (+39) "prompted by tantek" (view diff)
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aaronpk Micro formats spec doesn't care, but the h-entry spec can say one or the other
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aaronpk but I was asking about this the other day for repost-of, and determined there wasn't a good reason to have multiple values for it
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aaronpk i think there are a couple examples of posts that are a like of multiple posts thi
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aaronpk tho*
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cjk101010 I couldn’t find any statement in the h-entry spec as well
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aaronpk Not even in the brainstorming section?
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aaronpk we should probably firm up some of those things soon, since there are now quite a number of examples in the wild
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gRegorLove A multi-repost sounds like a /collection
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Loqi I agree
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aaronpk huh yeah I suppose
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petermolnar not reposts: links in an article which is a response to many
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petermolnar so either u-in-reply-to or u-like-of
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petermolnar but not repost
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cjk101010 aaronpk: are you talking about this stub? ;-) http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry-brainstorming
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Loqi h-entry brainstorming
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petermolnar I've had this trouble once earlier when I wanted to post an entry that was a response to an original article and to a response to the original article, summarizing things
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petermolnar so I'd say that since there are scenarios where multiple u-in-reply-to would make sense in a h-entry, there should be some kind of solution
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snarfed what is multi-reply
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Loqi A multiple reply (multireply) is a reply written directly in response to multiple previous posts https://indiewebcamp.com/multi-reply
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Loqi [indieweb] "I was not expecting to have a long conversation with my therapist today about why it's important to me to have my own website #indieweb" by Kyle Mahan https://kylewm.com/2016/02/i-was-not-expecting-to-have-a-long-conversation-with
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petermolnar oh
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petermolnar I didn't know about that
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cjk101010 is the owner of github.com/myfreeweb present?
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@bonnaire RT @ChrisAldrich With #indieweb webmentions, @wordpress @automattic @photomatt could easily replace Facebook and Twitter http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/18/remember_wordpress_pingbacks_the_w3c_wants_us_to_use_them_across_the_whole_web (twitter.com/_/status/703352307774173184)
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@kevinmarks RT @indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-02-26.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/703338765859749888/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/703353253975621632)
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[kevinmarks] hm http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/26/how-not-to-run-a-platform/
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Loqi [indieweb] "I just added a review here : https://alternativeto.net/software/known/ @withknown #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/i-just-added-a-review-here-softwareknown-withknown-indieweb
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@RikMende I just added a review here : https://alternativeto.net/software/known/ @withknown #indieweb (https://www.rmendes.net/2016/i-just-added-a-review-here-softwareknown-withknown-indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/703355715360935936)
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petermolnar !tell tantek you site's footer says 1996-2016, when will be the 20 years anniversary? :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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cjk101010 funny. while writing a patch for a library I use in my mf2 parser I suddenly meet someone of the indieweb movement ;-)
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kylewm cjk101010: another Elixir+indieweb person?
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cjk101010 nope. he’s using haskell
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cjk101010 https://unrelenting.technology/
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Loqi Greg
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cjk101010 yep
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kylewm Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 391 karma