#indiewebcamp 2016-03-18

2016-03-18 UTC
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gRegorLove
What's an "empty post" in terms of a feed?
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gRegorLove
A blank h-entry?
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[kevinmarks]
the point of tombstoning is also that you want the cached copies elsewhere removed, and replacing them with empty text or 'deleted' is a way to do that for clients that support updates, as well as those thta support deletes
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mblaney
gRegorLove: it would need to keep the permalink to work out what should be deleted, but otherwise yes a blank h-entry
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gRegorLove
What is tombstone?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tombstone" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10GV
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mblaney
kevinmarks what would a delete look like compared to an empty update?
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KevinMarks
that was the question. having a dt-deleted was a suggested way of signalling
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KevinMarks
a tombstone is a replacement entry with null or marked data for a deleted entry. This is a way of ensuring cached copies also get removed when an entry is deleted.
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loqi.me
created /tombstone (+188) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-17/line/1458259899606 and dfn added by KevinMarks"
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KevinMarks
so if instagram goes algorithmic, will the feeds from the api change too?
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kylewm
"feeds from the api" likely to be moot soon anyway right?
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mblaney
on another topic, should img alt text really be pulled into the plain text when parsing microformats?
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mblaney
I'm seeing duplicate text quite often, for example: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://adactio.com/notes/10380
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kylewm
I think tantek would say that's bad alt text; it shouldn't duplicate text that's already on the page
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Loqi
[tantek] bear - not true - duplicating text is bad for accessibility
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gRegorLove
It should either be more descriptive or blank, probably.
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mblaney
I guess I'm more wondering if attributes on tags should be part of plain text though.
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mblaney
ie php's strip_tags doesn't include alt
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gRegorLove
strip_tags is for an entirely different purpose than mf2 though
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mblaney
well mf2 has multiple purposes, e-content gives me the html p-* gives me plain text
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mblaney
I'm just wondering what the definition of plain text is
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mblaney
the result of strip_tags is obviously one definition
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[kevinmarks]
It's defined in parsing p- I think
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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mblaney
ok thanks for the link.
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[kevinmarks]
Also the value for e- says to expand alt text
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mblaney
e-content[value] says to expand alt text.... now I'm thinking about using strip_tags(e-content[html]) ;-)
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snarfed
hey all...just to confirm, the h-as-* mf2 classes are deprecated in favor of post type discovery, right?
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KevinMarks
yes, I think so
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KartikPrabhu
messages Loqi?
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acegiak
feeling inspired today!
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acegiak
gonna take a crack at this mood tracking thign
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acegiak
thing*
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KevinMarks
what's the model?
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acegiak
for mood tracking? I'm gonna have mood as a 0-1 or percentage type thing, maybe with optional strings as descriptor tags?
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KevinMarks
interesting
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KevinMarks
I've seen ti as icons before, not a numeric scale
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acegiak
I've used an app called pacifica before
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acegiak
which has keywords that are stages up a scale
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acegiak
I will probably write a module for dobby to have him prompt me to enter data
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KevinMarks
one for the fitness apps had a mood emoji thing that was quite cute
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GWG
acegiak: How will you do that WordPress wise? Post Meta?
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acegiak
GWG: yeah, post meta
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acegiak
post kinds lets other plugins hook in and add extra kinds doesn't it?
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KevinMarks
that was a graphical mood marker, and you slid your finger over it it went from slumped to excited
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KevinMarks
Jawbone Up
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acegiak
very neat
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GWG
acegiak: Sort of, yes. But my preferred method is to reserve the word in Post Kinds, and have it enabled by the activation of another plugin
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GWG
acegiak: What kind are you looking for?
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GWG
acegiak: I'll reserve the word for that use if it makes sense(the word, not the concept)
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acegiak
yeah the wording is a thing I have to think about
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miklb
what is Post Kinds?
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acegiak
I think it's probably just "feeling"
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Loqi
Post or posts may refer to individual pieces of content published on an indieweb site such as notes, articles, & responses, or the act of creating the aforementioned content (present tense), or Posts about the IndieWeb https://indiewebcamp.com/post_kinds
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GWG
What is the Post Kinds Plugin?
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Loqi
The Post Kinds Plugin is a WordPress plugin that adds support for responding and interacting with other sites to WordPress https://indiewebcamp.com/Post_Kinds_Plugin
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GWG
I should update that
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GWG
acegiak: Is that a kind by itself?
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acegiak
man, I don't know
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acegiak
it's a kind of checkin?
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GWG
There are two possibilities.
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miklb
what is it if you track what you eat/drink?
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GWG
1. It is tracking your emotional state.
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acegiak
yeah, see I feel like that's the same, miklb
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GWG
2. Feelings are data on any kind.
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GWG
The first one I'm fine with if we figure out what we call it.
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acegiak
GWG: I think this is a good case for multi-kind posts :P
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acegiak
but the first is what I actually need right now
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GWG
And show you how to enable it in the options in a plugin
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kevinmarks.com
uploaded /File:jawbonemood.jpg "Mood icons from Jawbone Up app"
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acegiak
first I'm gonna work out how to pull and merge your current version of the post-kinds plugin so I can try and fix the kses issue
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GWG
acegiak: I'm not sure with all the changes I made since last time, how it would work in the Post UI now. But I will think about it.
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GWG
acegiak: I have pushed some minor bug fixes to the development version.
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kevinmarks.com
edited /mood (+118) "/* Silo Examples */"
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GWG
acegiak: You should be able to pull upstream changes.
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acegiak
GWG: How is your progress towards location checkins going
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GWG
acegiak: I did a lot of great updates to SImple Location to make it less horrible interface wise.
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GWG
acegiak: Like the discussion about adding a plugin to support a kind, such as Feeling or Mood. The idea was enabling the plugin would add the additional location options to Post Kinds.
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acegiak
yeah, neat
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KevinMarks
On LJ mood is an attribute of a post
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GWG
But, where it is...I paused the Location work to work on the Indieweb plugin, because I want to get that done for the community, and I wanted to get it to where I would use it on my own site.
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GWG
Then I got bronchitis, and then I was working on some bug fixes for Post Kinds that people had filed. And then I got a new job. And that brings me to today.
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GWG
So, ramping back up.
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GWG
KevinMarks: That's why I sort of think of mood as a post attribute, not a post kind or type.
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acegiak
KevinMarks: yeah, and I wouldn't mind having a way to bunch a couple of post kinds together to say "here is a picture of me, I'm listening to X and feeling Y"
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GWG
But that isn't the only way to think of it
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KevinMarks
right, that fits wp better
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GWG
acegiak: If you have, not code, but an idea on how the multikind interface might work you think of, the issue is still open.
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acegiak
yeah for mood tracking you want a mood to be a unit of information that can exist on it's own
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acegiak
GWG: Yeah's it super tricky
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kevinmarks.com
edited /mood (+233) "/* Silo Examples */"
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GWG
acegiak: That's why you've seen me redesigning the interface several times over its life.
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GWG
acegiak: For the new Simple Location interface, I have a pop-up window for more location data I was experimenting with, and I moved the timezone override to the Publication window.
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GWG
Let me see if I still have a screenshot of that
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GWG
acegiak: This is a mockup I'd been experimenting with.
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KevinMarks
activity streams 1 had mood, as2 has deprecated it
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GWG
What is mood?
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Loqi
mood is sometimes expressed explicitly in or about a post, by the post author https://indiewebcamp.com/mood
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GWG
So, no Indieweb examples
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KevinMarks
acegiak can eb fisrt
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GWG
Yes.
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acegiak
I'm a pioneer :P
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KevinMarks
I wonder if aaronpk imported that from jawbone when he was doing his multiple activity trackers
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GWG
As tantek would probably say, document examples of mood/feelings so you can make your design.
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kevinmarks.com
edited /mood (+277) "/* Silo Examples */"
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acegiak
yeah his sleep data makes me want a fitness tracker/smartwatch
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acegiak
if the pebble time had heart rate...
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kevinmarks.com
edited /silo-quits (+581) "/* Silo quitters 2016 */"
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KevinMarks
I had an UP, but it stopped working
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KevinMarks
they're $15 now? they were $150 when we got them
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acegiak
that's crazy cheap
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KevinMarks
hm, says out of stock tho
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acegiak
I got my sister a fitness watch for christmas from a brand I'd not heard of before but was within my price range
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acegiak
turns out a few months later their app updates and is bugged
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acegiak
how hard could it possibly be to make something like a fitness watch with a lil arduino and a couple modules
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acegiak
so you don't have to worry about that kind of bullshit
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acegiak
same as I'd really like to be able to track my walks with something like runkeeper but then I have to work out how to pull from their API
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acegiak
grumbles
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kylewm
i dno't know a lot about them but would guess those hobby boards are not rough and tumble enough to be reliable exercise trackers?
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acegiak
kylewm: yeah, you're definitely right
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acegiak
I'm more just annoyed that I haven't found one that has an android app that's like "what endpoint should we send this json data to?"
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miklb
KevinMarks I was so ready to spend $15 :-)
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aaronpk
acegiak: until january, all of my walk/run/bike trips were imported from Runkeeper. it's not that bad.
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aaronpk
the hobby electronics stuff doesn't get small enough to be actually functional as an activity tracker
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GWG
acegiak: Based on the recent post noting URL Forwarder as a newer option for sending things to a web based endpoint, I'm thinking of putting one back into the plugin
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acegiak
aaronpk: yeah, I think I just got grumpy about trying to get the authorization thing working with their api
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aaronpk
i just did it manually once and then hard-coded the token into my import script
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acegiak
this is a good idea
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acegiak
ok I need git help
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acegiak
I want to pull my git fork of indieweb post kinds
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acegiak
and then just override it with all the changes from dshankse's version
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acegiak
so that then I can make changes and push back up
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acegiak
is there a way I can do that without going through and manually fixing all the conflicts?
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miklb
acegiak thinking out loud, but can you add another remote, pull that into a branch, then merge locally?
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on How I Set Up My Indieweb WordPress Site by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich https://david.shanske.com/2014/10/02/site-setup/#comment-2212
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acegiak
that's what I'm trying to do, just trying to work out how to deal with the merge conflicts that I don't care about
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miklb
stash?
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acegiak
no the merge conflicts are committed
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acegiak
so I think I have to revert to a previous version before those commits?
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acegiak
and then pull the specific version which matched at the time from the upstream?
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acegiak
and then merge those?
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acegiak
and then update to the current upstream version?
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GWG
acegiak: From the looks of it, all the commits since my last commit have been addressed, I think.
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miklb
acegiak yes, if you don't care about the commits, you could revert
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acegiak
what I'm saying is there isn't an easy way to do that
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miklb
you can git reset to a specific hash, or checkout to a previous hash
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miklb
isn't a git pro
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GWG
acegiak: I do have some things I'd like to pick your brain on.
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acegiak
go ahead!
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acegiak
I've fixed my git problem
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GWG
Had this request.
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GWG
Trying to decide under what circumstances the name of the article being responded to should become the name of the post.
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acegiak
you could have an option to do it
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acegiak
or a button
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acegiak
you could make your title the same as the original post's title
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acegiak
you could make it RE: original title
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acegiak
or you could take the tumblr approach and make it original author: original title
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GWG
Displaying it is the job of the theme either way.
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acegiak
whisperfollow just sets the title to the title of the original
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acegiak
true that
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acegiak
oh for fuck's sake, git that's
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acegiak
I added three lines in each file
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acegiak
GWG: okiedoke, PR on your desk there for you
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GWG
acegiak: The auto set to note I may bring in, but it may conflict with my plan to set the default as an option, so I may pull it, then modify it to add the get_option.
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GWG
But for now, it is 2AM here. I'm heading off
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acegiak
!tell GWG you should accept my change and then modify it later when you want to be able to set the default option
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@sonjaheinen
Most couple's say they exchange keys to each other's APIs between the 12th and 14th date.
(twitter.com/_/status/710480184072409088)
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www.derhess.de
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+177) "/* Participants */"
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marcthiele.com
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+449) "/* Participants */"
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voxpelli
Hi Loqi!
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petermolnar
whoa, that link from mageermarsh.com earlier: /cgi-bin/junco.pl !!! I haven't seen a link like this in a long while; it's good to see Perl jumping in as well.
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acegiak
ok, I have a very rough draft of a working mood tracking post kind
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acegiak
I'll try and keep this repo up to date
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acegiak.net
edited /mood (+454) "Adding myself as first indieweb example."
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acegiak
Ok! bedtime for me!
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GWG
Good night, acegiak
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Loqi
GWG: acegiak left you a message 4 hours, 14 minutes ago: you should accept my change and then modify it later when you want to be able to set the default option http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-18/line/1458293670917
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Loqi
sweet dreams
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Wishing I could #POSSE my reply/repost/stars/like when I interact with content on https://woodwind.xyz/ #indieweb" by Rick Mendes http://www.rmendes.net/2016/wishing-i-could-posse-my-replyrepoststarslike-when-i-interact-with
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myfreeweb
woodwind still doesn't find the micropub endpoint in the link header? :(
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kylewm
myfreeweb: it does
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kylewm
whoa, belay that maybe it doesn't
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kylewm
(i'm not sure why you say "still", this is the first time anyone's mentioned it afaik)
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myfreeweb
yeah flask_micropub.py: micropub_endpoint = soup.find('link', {'rel': 'micropub'})
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Loqi
[indieweb] "
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kylewm
myfreeweb: should work now, lmk
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kylewm
lol, urchin tracker woodwind.xyz!
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myfreeweb
okay now it found it but: bad response from token endpoint: <Response [201]>
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Loqi
[Kevin Marks] Kevin Marks
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[kevinmarks]
Have we defined how to handle entities in micropub?
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adactio
kevinmarks: I've just changed my markup to use a regular em-dash instead of the entity.
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[kevinmarks]
Thanks Jeremy, but it's worth checking which bit of the h-feed, woodwind, micropub, known, Twitter chain is not normalising.
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[aaronpk]
If you're sending HTML content in Micropub you need to explicitly indicate that. It's documented in the latest draft and Quill does that now too.
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emmak_
are plain text contents still sent the old way?
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Loqi
emmak_: cweiske left you a message on 2/1 at 11:33pm: your site does not seem to have search anymore. if that's permanent, please remove yourself from http://indiewebcamp.com/search#IndieWeb_Examples http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-02-01/line/1454398414249
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aaronpk
Yeah if you don't say it's HTML explicitly then it is interpreted as plaintext
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notenoughneon.com
edited /search (-242) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ remove notenoughneon, site no longer supports search"
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myfreeweb
kylewm: sent you a pull request to flask-micropub re: 2xx success status instead of just 200
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[kevinmarks]
So is this an mf2 parsing thing? Should p-name resolve entities to utf8?
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aaronpk
Is that behavior not defined yet? I assume it would be and that the test suite would have examples
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Loqi
[indieweb] "
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KevinMarks
hm, actually that probabky sin't what we ant, is it
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KevinMarks
the json should be in utf8, not python escaped unicode
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andicascadesf
Interesting topic – open source for game design (working with consoles)
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Loqi
andicascadesf: tantek left you a message on 12/17 at 5:03am: thank you for helping out with taking notes at the Homebrew Website Club meetup! :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-17/line/1450357427167
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KevinMarks
hm, python json.dumps() puts unicode in if you have unicode strings, nto utf8
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KevinMarks
thats annoying
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KevinMarks
I don't think JSON offically supports \u2014 etc does it?
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KevinMarks
oh, maybe it deos
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KevinMarks
so it's a matter of taste if you \u encode unicode in json
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KevinMarks
encoding and escaping, so many ways to do it o_O
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KevinMarks
but I'm still not sure what expected practice is for utf8 encoded or \u encoded json
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KevinMarks
not sure that HTML should have \u2014 in it there
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KevinMarks
pin13 doesn't have a text entry box
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tommorris
KevinMarks: will take a look shortly
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kylewm
KevinMarks: it does, pin13.net/mf2
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KevinMarks
so pin13 puts \u in the html field as well
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KevinMarks
I'm wondering if having \u escaped unicode in an field called html is a good idea.
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KevinMarks
I can see that potentially going wrong in some languages
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aaronpk
I thought that was at the JSON encoding layer
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aaronpk
so JSON decoding returns the actual character
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KevinMarks
right, but the you hit a unicode vs tf8 issue
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KevinMarks
I can see that blowing up in a language that uses 16-bit unicode by default
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KevinMarks
so the emdash would work, but an emoji would barf
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KevinMarks
or an \u2014 might show up in the html
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kylewm
are you worried about like Java not handling /u escape codes because its strings are UTF-16?
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KevinMarks
Java, MySQL, Perl, who knows
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KevinMarks
encoding is hard
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kylewm
wouldn't it barf just as bad on the emoji itself, if it was going to barf on a 32-bit /u value?
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aaronpk
Unrelated, I still haven't figured out why webmention.io won't store emojis in a utf8mb4 column.
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aaronpk
Click the "render HTML" checkbox and it prints it on the page too
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KevinMarks
no, becasue if it is a utf8 string, if it handles it naively by concatenating bytes it will still work
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KevinMarks
this is the irony with MySQL
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KevinMarks
I was happily storing utf8 in 12 years ago when it just treated strings as bytes
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aaronpk
That was my solution for webmention.io
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aaronpk
s/solution/workaround
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: That was my workaround for webmention.io
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gRegorLove
Hey, cool. I didn't realize pin13 stored parsed results. For how long?
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gRegorLove
What is pin13?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pin13" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10GW
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KevinMarks
(I just changed unmung to convert unicode to utf8 in json output)
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bear
if your using python and trying to store unicode in json - you have to make sure everything is .encode('utf8') before passing to json
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bear
(in order to avoid \u in your json output)
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KevinMarks
or you can pass ensure_ascii=False to json.dumps() and it will make it into utf8
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bear
oh, I keep forgetting about ensure_ascii
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bear
I have an ugly convert_all_to_byte() function that walks objects to force everything to utf8
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KevinMarks
well, the tricky part is if you use .dump() and the writer doesn't understand you will get an encoding barf at runtime
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bear
nods
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KevinMarks
but dumps() works becasuse the string writer understands
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bear
I always use dumps()
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KevinMarks
me to, but it is making an extra copy and using RAM, so…
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bear
makes a note to audit all of his new code for ensure_ascii=False usage
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KevinMarks
tantek - what is good practice on html containing unicode characters? My gut says 'use utf8'
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bear
yea, that will be a "fun" worry if any of my projects get into that scale of production where I have to worry about ram
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tantek
yes utf8
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tantek
utf8++
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Loqi
utf8 has 2 karma
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bear
your talking about using <meta charset='utf-8'> in the <html> section?
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tantek
checks logs
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bear
looks like git 2.7.4 is out - and this time they promise to fix the fix this time - ugh
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miklb
bear so the security issues weren't fixed in 2.7.2?
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bear
or 2.7.3 it seems
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bear
our infosec team is looking into it now
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barnabywalters
snarfed: is there a way to see markup for bridgy event RSVP backfeed mentions? I’m getting a lot of weird-looking results here: https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4gJKBB/
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Loqi
[Barnaby Walters] Event: Tanzimpro/Balfolk Workshop in Multikulti
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barnabywalters
woah stead on loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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barnabywalters
s/stead/steady
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: woah steady on loqi
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bear
miklb - yes, 2.7.4 contains the security fixes (they evidently applied the patches to the master but not to the release branches)
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miklb
bear good to know.
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miklb
sounds like something I would do (apply patch to master & not a release branch) :-)
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miklb
bear by the way, was cool to recognize you when researching python Twitter clients.
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miklb
s/clients/libraries
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Loqi
miklb meant to say: bear by the way, was cool to recognize you when researching python Twitter libraries.
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bear
yea, I'm amazed at how many people use that thing
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miklb
I don't really know python, but have had an itch to learn more, so am looking at building a Twitterbot as a means to familiarize myself with it more
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bear
ah - yea, python-twitter is a great way to do that - simply enough to use in small test scripts
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kylewm
barnabywalters: it's not great, but if you open the log entry you can usually find the URL of the webmention source in there, e.g. https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/100001398384863/557877497711850/100001398384863
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Loqi
[Barnaby Walters] is attending.
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barnabywalters
kylewm: thanks, I’ll see if I can figure out what’s causing all of these empty comments
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kylewm
invites likely
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barnabywalters
yeah, they’re invites, I’m trying to figure out why they looks so bad when interpreted as comments by (non-invite-aware) Taproot
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barnabywalters
presumably the markup was built on the principle of graceful fallback for simple software which has to handle fancy things like invites and RSVPs as comments
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kylewm
bridgy's invites don't have a p-author, that always causes me headaches
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barnabywalters
yeah, that seems to be the problem
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barnabywalters
I wonder if the person who invited the invitee(?) is available in the API somewhere
#
barnabywalters
seems like it would make sense to make them the author
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kylewm
no :(
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barnabywalters
and at least to include the invitee markup in the p-name
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barnabywalters
so there aren’t hundreds of comments saying “invited”
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barnabywalters
oh that’s a pity
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kylewm
facebook--
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Loqi
facebook has -13 karma
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barnabywalters
well I’ll go and update Taproot to handle these in a not-quite-so-messy way
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barnabywalters
looks like the best way of telling if something is an invite is presence of p-invitee
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barnabywalters
I’ll just default to storing the author as myself if there’s an authorless invite, and include the invitee name when the content is displayed
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#
KevinMarks
gillmor gnag time
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tantek
since we have more h-event support going on, I'm looking at adding event to post type discovery
#
tantek
also I'd like to add checkins since it's been a challenging one in the past and I think I've solved it, and I'd like to get review / get people to poke holes
#
aaronpk
Along with corresponding rsvp and invite posts?
#
Loqi
[Ben Roberts] This is a post that is offline!
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ben_thatmustbeme
second level replies
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tantek
aaronpk: rvsp is already in
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aaronpk
Ah cool
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tantek
since so many people consistently supported it (and receiving them)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i had to adjust the data it pulled back because it definitely got blank data for source URL and author
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tantek
looking at invitation
#
tantek
/invitation is under consideration
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KevinMarks
what is this week?
#
Loqi
This Week in the IndieWeb is a weekly digest of activities of the IndieWebCamp community https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week
#
aaronpk
How do you post a photo with a checkin? According to that it would just be a photo
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tantek
aaronpk: as a photo reply to the checkin
#
tantek
in practice posting a photo with a checkin is not as realtime / timely
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tantek
per your reasoning!
#
tantek
deciding / framing / taking the photo takes time (latency, not real time)
#
tantek
choosing the photo among those taken, posting the photo (compressing, uploading) takes time (more latency, delay)
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tantek
all of that latency / delay = disconnected from the actual realtime moment you got to the venue, thus less and less likely to actually *represent* a realtime checkin
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KevinMarks
well, instagram posse to foursquare does it in one operation
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kylewm
seems like photo is one of those things that always causes trouble. maybe "has a photo" should be orthogonal to the post type discovery algorithm
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ben_thatmustbeme
nothing of a checkin really says its the "moment you got there"
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's a cross-post not POSSE. no URL shared. etc.
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tantek
and all the latency points still apply
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ben_thatmustbeme
its more like a "i'm announcing i'm here"
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tantek
I use IG like that to post "Postsquare" checkins
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KevinMarks
retrospective checkin is a case too
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tantek
kylewm: that doesn't follow
#
tantek
KevinMarks: nope - those are not really checkins per the stricter definition aaronpk proposed
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tantek
kylewm: if something "causes" trouble it usually indicates it should just be *lower* in the algorithm
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tantek
not orthogonal
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snarfed
tantek: good timing! we closed a bridgy bug just recently with "because post type discovery" :P https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/635
#
kylewm
hmm, if any post type can have a photo, i'm not convinced that having a photo is meaningful
#
kylewm
in terms of post type discovery
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tantek
snarfed: any feedback for me to improve the algorithm?
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tantek
kylewm: any post can have text too
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snarfed
i kinda agree with kylewm. many post types can have photos, which doesn't necessarily change the post type. plenty of silo examples of this too
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tantek
again, I think you're concluding more than you can
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KevinMarks
maybe a photo post is if it has a photo and not other info
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ben_thatmustbeme
which is why photo / note should be the last two in the algorithm i would say
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kylewm
tantek: uh, right. and having text doesn't imply one post type or another
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tantek
^^^ ben_thatmustbeme is reasoning with the right constraints
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snarfed
eh yeah, maybe "further down" is good enough
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kylewm
so a reply with a photo is a reply, but a note with a photo is a photo? seems arbitrary
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ben_thatmustbeme
not really, reply actually has meaning moreso than the photo with it
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snarfed
it also just says post type discovery is useful, but not the final word. you may often still need check if a post has a photo (or video, content, etc), regardless of its type
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ben_thatmustbeme
a photo has more meaning than just a simple note
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: right, it's somewhat by order of "richness", and by "specificity of intention"
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tantek
e.g. a video is richer than a photo is richer than text
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tantek
but an rsvp (with text!) is more specific than a reply
#
tantek
and text with an in-reply-to (AKA a reply) is more specific than a plain text note
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kylewm
there's a fundamental problem there though, a photo with a location on instagram is a Photo; PESATAS to Foursquare, teh same thing becomes a Checkin
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tantek
kylewm: because every post (without an in-reply-to) on Foursquare is a checkin
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tantek
that's because of Foursquare's post type limitations
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, i've long argued that checkin with photo is different from photo with location, but i think its probably correct to say that a checkin requires a "location" not just gps
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tantek
not because everything you do is a checkin
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ben_thatmustbeme
feels like i'm splitting hairs there though
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: the important thing about splitting such hairs is to do so with empirical real world examples to reason with
#
tantek
rather than purely philosophical semantic arguments
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KevinMarks
would classic dopplr be a checkin? or a future event?
#
tantek
dopplr supported many types of "posts" so you have to be more specific
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tantek
what is dopplr?
#
Loqi
Dopplr was a silo for sharing future travel plans https://indiewebcamp.com/Dopplr
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tantek
start with citing and/or adding examples there to back up your question(s)
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tantek
re: dopplr
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: I think I just illustrated that a photo with a location and a checkin with a photo are the same thing. just interpreted differently depending on the context/site they are posted on
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aaronpk
i haven't heard any mention yet of what these post types *look* like
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tantek
aaronpk: on the individual post type pages
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aaronpk
with the photo on instagram copied to swarm, the two end up looking very different
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tantek
kylewm: theoretically yes. in practice no
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aaronpk
i actually just did that the other day. let me dig it up
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tantek
when I looked at individual examples of photo + location, and analyzed them per aaronpk's proposed opinions about what is a checkin, they clustered pretty well
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tantek
the analysis is summarized in the proposal on /ptd
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tantek
the details of how that analysis was derived are in the IRC chat as of when I wrote it up!
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aaronpk
why is it useful to know if something is "a photo" post?
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: interesting question, are they the same thing just interpretted differently
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aaronpk
a consumer (showing a comment, or displaying the post in a reader) is probably going to want to show the photo on any kind of post if there's a photo
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tantek
aaronpk: do you have a /photos feed?
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ben_thatmustbeme
well, those may be very different though, checkin with a photo is one thing (additional info) but a series of photo posts could be grouped together (as facebook does)
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tantek
do you include "checkins with photos" there? or just "photos with locations" ?
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tantek
clustering is another use-case
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tantek
what is clustering?
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Loqi
notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) https://indiewebcamp.com/clustering
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tantek
what is a photos list?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "photos list" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10GX
#
tantek
what is a photo list?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "photo list" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10GY
#
tantek
what is an event list?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "event list" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10GZ
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tantek
what is an events list?
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Loqi
An events listing is a page or portion of a page (like on a homepage) of an indieweb site that shows a list of events, including some subset of the site's own event, invitation, and RSVP posts, displayed as a list or grid of some sort https://indiewebcamp.com/events_list
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tantek
event list is [[events list]]
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loqi.me
created /event_list (+24) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-18/line/1458333674300 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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tantek
does anyone have a page of just their photo posts?
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aaronpk
the answer to "do you include checkins with ___" is always going to be "no" because I don't have checkins on my site yet
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tantek
photos page :)
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aaronpk
but like all my pages that show a time-ordered series of posts, it is possible for any post to appear in any or multiple of them
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aaronpk
i just have some default rules for sorting posts when they are created
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tantek
aaronpk: photos stream, just saw the "load more"
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aaronpk
sure we can call it a stream instead of a feed
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tantek
aaronpk: the rest of the world does from a UI perspective
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tantek
it's only plumbing geeks (including us) that are stuck on the non-user-friendly term "feed"
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: thinking about it more, there is a big difference between those two (photo w/ location vs checkin w/ photo). A checkin in an active intentional action. the location attatched to a photo is passive. I know rhiaro builds a list of where she has been based on checkins, if photos triggered that it would be a big difference
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aaronpk
except facebook: "news feed"
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tantek
aaronpk: would you include all posts with "location" information into a checkins stream?
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aaronpk
no i definitely would not
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tantek
aaronpk: did you ever figure out how Foursquare knew? https://aaronparecki.com/2016/03/08/10/
#
Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] How does it know??? #foursquare
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KevinMarks
what about venue rather than location
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tantek
KevinMarks: please re-read the proposal. that's in there already
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aaronpk
nope i still venue-tag photos
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aaronpk
i think it assumed i was going to boston because i clicked on two hotels there earlier
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KevinMarks
you had searched 'hotel boston' ?
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aaronpk
no just looked up the hotels tantek and i were staying at
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah totally agree, it's a different intention
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tantek
btw, to the arguments about cross-posting from IG to 4sq, just because you can shove a round peg into a square hole, does not mean that the peg is somehow magically also square, or square *instead*
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tantek
posting a photo with location info to IG is the round page to a round hole, and foursquare is the square hole in that example
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aaronpk
if you look at each without knowing which it's "supposed" to be, it seems pretty clear from the UI that the one on instagram is a photo and the one on foursquare is a checkin
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aaronpk
look at the hierarchy of information in them
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tantek
the user intention is still "photo" specifically because of their decision to post to IG!
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tantek
nope, the one on foursquare is also a photo
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tantek
masquerading as a checkin
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aaronpk
that doesn't make any sense
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tantek
the round peg does not magically become a square peg
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tantek
it's the same peg
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KevinMarks
or swarm and instagram are views that emphasise checkin and photo respectively?
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tantek
not emphasize, but limited to
#
tantek
thus by choosing which app, the user is showing their post type intent
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tantek
(and video on IG)
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aaronpk
so this is also a photo masquerading as a checkin? https://www.swarmapp.com/aaronpk/checkin/56ec5901498e578821ee094a
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tantek
here's another cross-post reasoning example
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aaronpk
what does masquerading as a checkin even mean?
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tantek
just because you can cross-post ANYTHING to Twitter, does not make EVERYTHING a tweet
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tantek
or a note
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myfreeweb
i read that as "masquerading as a chicken"
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tantek
e.g. Nike+ to Twitter
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tantek
a Nike+ "post" is still a "run", despite cross-posting it to Twitter
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KevinMarks
right, but when I choose to crosspost to swarm from IG I am deciding that it will present as a checkin
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tantek
secondarily to your intent to post a photo
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tantek
you are not deciding, you have no choice of post type on swarm
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tantek
you're deciding to put up with their limitations and shoving the round peg into the square hole
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aaronpk
i'm still shocked at how nobody else is thinking about the UI of these
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tantek
presentation?
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tantek
or was there a specific interaction you had in mind?
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aaronpk
presentation
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aaronpk
checkins show the location as the primary object on the page, with photo posts, the photo is the primary object
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tantek
sounds like we need more documentation of actual real world presentation of checkins
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aaronpk
there's no way you can convince me that is a photo, even though i posted it from instagram
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KevinMarks
does ownyourgram delete its test post?
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aaronpk
delete? no
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tantek
aaronpk: that's a limitation of Swarm
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tantek
again, just like being able to shove any post type into Twitter
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aaronpk
but I only cross-posted it to swarm because I *wanted* to check in
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tantek
and the response being "there's no way you can convince me that is not a tweet"
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tantek
but I only cross-posted to Twitter because I wanted to tweet.
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tantek
does not make it a tweet
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aaronpk
once it's on twitter it literally is a tweet
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tantek
or else everything is a tweet, and that's reductio absurdum
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aaronpk
everything on twitter is a tweet, by definition of twitter!
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tantek
or it's a limitation of Twitter only presenting things as tweets
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tantek
rather than the thing actually *being* a tweet
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aaronpk
we should also step back and think about why we even need to be able to determine the type of a post at all
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tantek
or a note if the branded post term is causing confusion
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tantek
aaronpk: because 1 use-cases, 2 systems that require explicit typing
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aaronpk
with my site rebuild, I tried to avoid explicit typing as much as possible
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aaronpk
there are a few cases where I need to make some hard decisions, and it's because those are the cases I need to use a different presentation template for the post
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aaronpk
when I add checkins to my site, they are going to look very different from all current posts, mainly the venue name is going to be emphasized over everything else in the post
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aaronpk
the other time i need to know more about the specific type is to sort posts into the different "channels" like photos/events/travel/transport/health/etc
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kylewm
aaronpk++ for step back, i feel like this whole conversation is trying to put a round peg (posted made of composable pieces) into a square hole (discrete post types)
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Loqi
aaronpk has 95 karma
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aaronpk
in all cases, I need to know a more specific type (more specific than "post") because of some presentation issue
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tantek
kylewm: but that's exactly what aaronpk is trying to do (channels = discrete post types)
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aaronpk
no, channels are not discrete post types
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aaronpk
all events show in "events", some events show in "travel"
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tantek.com
edited /checkin (+526) "stub silo examples and former silo examples, NEED SCREENSHOTS"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
there's a bunch of overlapping rules that make a post appear in multiple channels
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tantek
contributions welcome for further analysis: https://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#Silo_Examples
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tantek
aaronpk: that makes sense
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aaronpk
(walk => transport, health, walks) (plane => travel, transport, flights) (food => health, ate) etc etc.
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tantek
anyway - post examples on the wiki to use for more reasoning
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aaronpk
ironically, we need to come to some sort of conclusion on this before I can add checkins to my site, since I use mf2 vocabulary as storage
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tantek
either those examples will led to refinement (or rewriting) of https://indiewebcamp.com/post-type-discovery#Feature_consideration_checkin OR we may "give up" and end up with creating a new property like "p-checkin" that is similar to "p-location", just as we added "u-like-of" which is similar in that regard to "u-in-reply-to"
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tantek
in that latter case a client that is creating a checkin post would be required to add a "p-checkin" property that is also an h-card/h-adr/h-geo
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tantek
and then PTD would trigger off the presence of that property, just as it triggers off the presence of p-rsvp
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@jevdemon
@windley @DavidsonCollege love the idea of personal APIs. Does this align with #indieweb concepts?
(twitter.com/_/status/710936579598983169)
Pierre-O, miklb and Loqi joined the channel
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tantek
snarfed: if you were going to do that, check out /quotation
#
tantek
welcome back Loqi
#
Loqi
grins profusely
#
tantek
you missed some discussion
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snarfed
tantek: right! i remember. twitter's is more constrained though; just wondering if we know the exact mf2 that would map vs not
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tantek
from that page
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snarfed
also kinda hates the idea of a personal API
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tantek
what is a personal API?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "personal API" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10G_
#
myfreeweb
hmm "u-quotation-of" doesn't seem necessary to me
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snarfed
tantek: right, i'm familiar with that. i just don't think we've talked about exact semantics for mapping u-quotation-of/h-cite to/from quote tweets specifically
#
Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-03-18.html
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myfreeweb
u-repost-of h-cite + your own e-content == repost with comment
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snarfed
eg if the mf2 quote is in the middle of the content, do we care? since quote tweets can only put the quotation at the end
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tantek
snarfed: twitter has plenty of limitations, we POSSE anyway
#
snarfed
myfreeweb: definitely necessary if you want to map to quote tweet, since we need the quoted tweet's url
#
tantek
the existence of limitations is not itself a reason not to POSSE
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snarfed
tantek: sure! not saying we shouldn't. just saying we need to figure out details
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snarfed
as usual
#
tantek
so no, we don't care
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myfreeweb
snarfed: .u-repost-of.h-cite .u-url
#
tantek
just like we don't care that we can only post ~120 chars to a POSSE tweet
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snarfed
myfreeweb: semantics of quoting vs reposting are different
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snarfed
ducks followup questions
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aaronpk
a quoted tweet always seemed like it was just including another tweet URL in my tweet. is it different?
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snarfed
aaronpk: tweet url just has to be at the end.
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aaronpk
on twitter it does
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myfreeweb
"Use a quotation when you are only quoting part of someone else's post, not the whole thing" well no one quotes only part of 140 characters
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aaronpk
i'm almost certain you can find a counterexample to that very quickly
#
tantek
aaronpk: re: /invitation (previous event / rsvp discussion)
#
tantek
before adding to PTD, I'm going to need to see more real world examples here: https://indiewebcamp.com/invitation
#
aaronpk
probably a good idea
#
tantek
dang we're down to zero "active" examples
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tantek.com
edited /invitation (+118) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ move kylewm example to previous, note Redwind"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
i'm on board with the suggested markup on /quotation
#
KevinMarks
tantek, did you see the context of my html comment? whether parsed mf2 shoudl have \u2014 etc in the html field
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tantek
did not
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tantek
could you add to microformats2-parsing-issues?
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aaronpk
hm my bookmark markup changed
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KevinMarks
OK, will do
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aaronpk
nvm, the description on that page is still accurate
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tantek
aaronpk: your bookmark examples were key to analyzing and describing quotation posts
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aaronpk
glad i could help
#
tantek
aside, Instagram has been making tons of subtle changes to their web presentation of photo permalinks
#
tantek
interesting for photo presentation analysis
#
tantek
and I'm expecting anyone scraping Instagram permalinks
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /checkin (+185) "/* Swarm */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
hmm! Firefox with Noscript displays IG permalinks VERY differently than Safari (executing script) !
#
tantek
also sometime last year IG changed their JPG hosting URLs, breaking anybody that was linking to / embedding any IG JPGS
#
tantek
is fixing posts one at a time as he needs to link to them
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snarfed
tantek: instagram's html was js;dr last time i checked, but the permalinks include very usable JSON, so most scrapers would probably use that
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aaronpk
tests++
#
Loqi
tests has 18 karma
#
tantek
snarfed: you're right I think I whitelisted IG's scripts from their domain
#
tantek
but not 3rd party scripts
#
tantek
IG presents photos full bleed on FF, but in a box on Safari
#
tantek
info / comments below photo on FF
#
tantek
on the right side of the photo on Safari
#
barnabywalters
I’d be curious to hear feedback on my granular yes/no/maybe/interested RSVP presentation here: https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4gJKBB/
#
Loqi
[Barnaby Walters] Event: Tanzimpro/Balfolk Workshop in Múltí Kúltí
#
barnabywalters
as well as any ideas for an icon for “invited”?
#
KevinMarks
tantek: is that an artefact of different media query triggering on the 2?
#
barnabywalters
I don’t think I saw any indie sites publishing events with granular RSVP counts so far. I think p3k and known do granular presentation
#
tantek
good call KevinMarks - I had somehow zoomed the FF window and thus it was "smaller" from the page's perspective
#
tantek
barnabywalters: aaronpk does
#
tantek
see aaronparecki.com/events
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barnabywalters
I just see “4 RSVPs” in the count section https://aaronparecki.com/2016/03/16/13/
#
Loqi
W3C Social Web Face-To-Face Meeting
#
barnabywalters
unless no/interested/maybe RSVPs aren’t included in that count?
#
KevinMarks
barnaby: envelope emoji for invitation? ✉️
#
barnabywalters
KevinMarks: good idea!
#
KevinMarks
✉️📨📩
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barnabywalters
not going to use actual emoji characters as that’d look inconsistent with the rest of my icons
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KevinMarks
also 💌
#
barnabywalters
but an envelope icon is a good idea
#
tantek
what is 💌?
#
Loqi
An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post https://indiewebcamp.com/%F0%9F%92%8C
#
aaronpk
doesn't facebook use ?
#
aaronpk
to indicate no response
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KevinMarks
apparently that's a love letter as opposed to a letter
#
tantek
envelope is already used to mean "email"
#
tantek
on online UIs
#
tantek
all the plain envelopes that is
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aaronpk
hm I can't find the "?" example anymore
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barnabywalters
it’ll do until there’s a better idea
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tantek
aaronpk: I'm just seeing "?"
#
aaronpk
ah facebook shows the profile photo with no icon overlay if there is no response
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /checkin (+59) "/* Swarm */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
noun project seems to converge on an envelope with a card in: https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=invitation
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barnabywalters
now I just have to figure out why bridgy invitation mentions don’t update properly in taproot, and why duplicates can be allowed
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barnabywalters
tomorrow. goodnight!
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Loqi
gute nacht!
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acegiak
Morning, all!
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tantek
hmm FB showing of URLs in <title>s of my photos is motivating me to fix that ASAP
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tantek
so that the /link-preview that it shows does not include long URLs (at the start of a post)
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tantek
now to brainstorm about how to best do that, and if it makes sense as a CASSIS function
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snarfed
tantek: same with your atom! (instagram urls)
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snarfed
your photo posts have been ugly in my reader for a long time :P
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snarfed
ah well
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tantek
snarfed: yeah :( sorry
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@Asif2BD
#Webmentions Looks promising! Is #W3C Replicating the #WordPress #Pingback System? http://wptavern.com/is-w3c-replicating-the-wordpress-pingback-system via @wptavern by @pollyplummer
(twitter.com/_/status/710963411207790594)
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[kevinmarks]
I added url truncation to the python version of autolink
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tantek
I can't find the itch
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miklb
wow, the comments in that post are already full of hate :-(
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tantek
KevinMarks: how did you do it?
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snarfed
url truncation as in prettifying? drop scheme, ellipsize at a certain length, etc?
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tantek
snarfed, nah I'm thinking omit all URLs that result in no visual text content in the normal auto_link case
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tantek
from the *start*
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aaronpk
I've definitely used URLs in a sentence, and it seems that would break that case
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aaronpk
oh wait i think i see what you mean
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tantek
that article is not bad!
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tantek
"But Webmentions also look better aesthetically in the comments section. Pingback comments look robotic and aren’t exactly readable; a Pingback comment contains the title of the post that sent the Pingback and an ellipsed summary that doesn’t make much sense."
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tantek
"Webmentions look and feel like human comments "
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tantek
lol can't see comments thanks to js;dr :)
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miklb
what is js;dr
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Loqi
js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indiewebcamp.com/js;dr
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "Is W3C Replicating the WordPress Pingback System? – WordPress Tavern" http://wptavern.com/is-w3c-replicating-the-wordpress-pingback-system (from https://aaronparecki.com/2016/03/18/12/)
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aaronpk
so i just fixed a nasty bug with Compass which was causing a bunch of my trips to get dropped, and now just went through the whole boston trip logs and filled in my history :)
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aaronpk
turns out a key/value store doesn't do well when you try to store two different things with the same key
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bear
that is part of why I always store even intermediate/calculated data when processing things -- being able to replay events
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tantek
hey aaronpk when Loqi shows tweets here that have a photo, he says [Photo} (or [photo]?) is that Loqi doing that or Twitter?
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Loqi
who, me?
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tantek
and have you ever seen it do [Video} instead?
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aaronpk
that's Loqi doing that
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Loqi
who, me?
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aaronpk
I thought he didn't do it in this channel, only other channels
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tantek
pretty sure I've seen it here
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aaronpk
I was getting complaints that the Loqi tweet expansions were "noisy" since the photo URL ends up looking the same as the tweet permalink
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GWG
I'm very annoyed at the WP Tavern article.
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+866) "/* improve photo posts */ fix photo plain text title name"
(view diff)
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tantek
GWG really?
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tantek
it seemed quite positive
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aaronpk
the article was positive, but definitely had some errors
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GWG
Do you remember a while back when I was talking about contributing a guest post on Webmentions?
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GWG
That was to WP Tavern.
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tantek
GWG, the article did link to your work right?
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GWG
It did?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /DDOS (+188) "/* Indieweb Examples */"
(view diff)
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tantek
snarfed, if you have additional suggestions re: fixing feed reader post names/titles for my photo posts: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#fix_photo_plain_text_title_name
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tantek
hoping to fix later tonight (after dinner and such)
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snarfed
tantek: cool! just removing the URL; the rest is good
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tantek
like would it help if you saw "[photo] rest of text" in your feed reader
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tantek
or "[video] rest of text"
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tantek
(in the list view)
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tantek
(presumably that's where the problem is)
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tantek
figuring I might as well consider improving the experience beyond the minimal fix, whether or not I implement it