#indiewebcamp 2016-03-29

2016-03-29 UTC
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tantek aaronpk: I wonder if /fragmentions documents that script
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tantek presumably view source would reveal which script it is? KevinMarks?
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aaronpk i honestly have no idea, it was so long ago
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tantek I mean presumably the name of the script .js file would be sufficient to identify it
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KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/skins/indieweb/fragmentions.js
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KevinMarks which looks old
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tantek compared to what original?
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tantek and is that original documented on /fragmentions?
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snarfed i think https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions is canonical?
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KevinMarks yes, though we could clone it to the indieweb repo?
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tantek sure
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KevinMarks hm, I thought I updated that to not say ##
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: would you be OK with cloning the fragmention js code to the indieweb repository?
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tantek.com edited /rel-values (+9889) "copy some history from responses page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /responses () "(-9578) fix dfn momentarily, move brainstorming to history in rel-values" (view diff)
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tantek merging long divergent but same topic wiki pages is hard :/
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tantek it's like you have to load two different perspectives of the same idea-space into your head at the same time, and then correlate all the conceptual items until you can collapse them all
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KevinMarks useful exercise though
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KevinMarks lol at 'nods' - I'd forgotten I put that in
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tantek.com edited /interactions (+339) "note discussion as historical, incorporate dfn, see also from responses" (view diff)
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tantek.com deleted /responses "Deleted to make way for move"
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tantek.com moved /interactions to /responses "have incorporated previous responses content into interactions page, moving to prefer "responses" term per discussion of alternatives"
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tantek what are responses?
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Loqi responses, or interactions, in the context of the indieweb, refer to all the different ways and things people explicitly do to and with others’s posts, from written replies to quick likes, in other words responses = replies + reactions https://indiewebcamp.com/responses,
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tantek what are interactions?
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Loqi responses, or interactions, in the context of the indieweb, refer to all the different ways and things people explicitly do to and with others’s posts, from written replies to quick likes, in other words responses = replies + reactions https://indiewebcamp.com/interactions
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tantek.com edited /responses (+172) "/* History */ link to response rel-value naming history for (re)discoverability since that brainstorming used to be inline on the responses page" (view diff)
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kylewm Fwiw, I sort of like the little hat tip of leaving a project under the original author's github
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aaronpk honestly we probably didn't need the indieweb org to begin with
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KevinMarks I get that, but I can see value in collecting them too
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KevinMarks it took some work to find the fragmention one earlier
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aaronpk That's what the wiki is for right?
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@kevinmarks @Joi @50kft_K I owe you a longer post, but what you're asking for is http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE with comments returned by webmention (twitter.com/_/status/714694250852720640)
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Loqi [bridgy] Joi Ito replied '@kevinmarks @50kft_K interesting. Cc: @EthanZ @davewiner' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/Joi/status/714694730743939072)
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@Roebot POSSE - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/714696709813772288)
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@kevinmarks http://www.wired.com/2016/03/best-to-do-list-app/?mbid=indieweb "Why can't you automate and optimise my anomie?" (twitter.com/_/status/714697731302891521)
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@cindyfsolomon RT @kevinmarks http://www.wired.com/2016/03/best-to-do-list-app/?mbid=indieweb "Why can't you automate and optimise my anomie?" (twitter.com/_/status/714701113589637121)
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@csarven @mylesbyrne #microformats is archaic in this day and age, and an anti-pattern in context of what #indiewebcamp strives to be. (twitter.com/_/status/714713684896059400)
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@csarven @kevinmarks #FIXME If #indiewebcamp is supposedly welcoming, its anti-patterns - baggage from #microformats - poses limits/negative tone. (twitter.com/_/status/714719361798377472)
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tommorris.org edited /site-deaths (+523) "/* Upcoming */ adding Livemocha" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /site-deaths (+48) "reordering and administrivia. plus, dotCloud is now dead RIP" (view diff)
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@tommorris Updated the site deaths list. https://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths Never forget: Silicon Valley preserves your stuff only until the VC money runs out. (twitter.com/_/status/714724612303687680)
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@28481k RT @tommorris Updated the site deaths list. https://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths Never forget: Silicon Valley preserves your stuff only until the VC money runs out. (twitter.com/_/status/714724654225760257)
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Loqi [bridgy] 50kft [Keith] replied '@kevinmarks @joi then syndicated out to the silos as you like, with the comment ...' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/50kft_K/status/714741351619891200)
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@voxpelli RT @tommorris Updated the site deaths list. https://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths Never forget: Silicon Valley preserves your stuff only until the VC money runs out. (twitter.com/_/status/714766935825715201)
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sebastianlasse.de edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+546) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek reads logs
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tantek does anyone understand @csarven's tweets above? they seem ranty without any actual substance - if anyone has any constructive insights there, please share. cc: rhiaro sandro KevinMarks
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myfreeweb hah, i made a post https://unrelenting.technology/notes/2016-03-29-13-48-34 using ifttt's DO Note for android as a micropub client... just in time for the ifttt/pinboard thing :D
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Loqi [Greg] Somehow, all the Sleater-Kinney music I have on my phone is marked as “Metal” in the metadata. Come on, I can hear all the words clearly, so this ain’t metal :D...
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tantek myfreeweb: nice :)
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myfreeweb and about the ifttt/pinboard thing, looks like the best self-hosted alternative is https://github.com/node-red/node-red
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myfreeweb it does not use a database!
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tantek sweet
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tantek can you add that to https://indiewebcamp.com/IFTTT somewhere? perhaps in a new "Alternatives" section?
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myfreeweb yep, was just thinking i should do that
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tantek aaronpk: congrats on publishing an update to the W3C Webmention WD! https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-webmention-20160329/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Webmention
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 101 karma
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tantek love this: "only the first 1mb of the page, since any reasonably HTML or JSON page will be smaller than that" :)
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tantek any *reasonable* :)
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aaronpk oops thanks for pointing out the typo
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tantek I meant it only to emphasize! wow didn't even realize there was a typo (or that I'd pointed it out) until you just said so!
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tantek I literally misread (error-corrected) it in-place in my head despite the copy/paste
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aaronpk me too apparently
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@kylewmahan @csarven @kevinmarks anything on http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns specifically you find objectionable, or is it more the negative framing? (twitter.com/_/status/714843815752798213)
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unrelenting.technology edited /IFTTT (+665) "Add alternatives" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: if you think we can improve upon the /antipatterns page (regardless of csarven's vague commentary) we should do so
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kylewm tantek: nah, I looked over it expecting to find something adversarial or negative, but it all seems super reasonable to me. it's not negatively framed, more like "if you start thinking this way, watch out that might be a trap some of us have fallen into before"
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tantek cool - good to verify that
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kylewm node-red looks like barnaby's pipes thing (which looked like yahoo's pipes thing)
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gRegorLove I read "its anti-patterns" as anti-patterns the indiewebcamp community might have, rather than /antipatterns the page itself.
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tantek s/vague/vague & ambiguous
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tantek hmm - what if Loqi could look backward a few statements for the first one that matched the s/term/ and then update that one
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@jkantel Von #RMarkdown über das #OpenWeb zum #IndieWeb und zurück (zur #WorldMarkdown) http://blog.schockwellenreiter.de/2016/03/2016032903.html (twitter.com/_/status/714852397667979264)
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snarfed re "only the first 1mb, since any reasonably HTML will be smaller"...just as a data point, the size of the average HTML page (across a large swathe of the web) was 56KB on 2015-10-15
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/util.py#L71
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snarfed http://www.sitepoint.com/average-page-weight-increases-15-2014/
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aaronpk data++
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Loqi data has 2 karma
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tantek thanks snarfed, that's a good point
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snarfed oh btw aaronpk, i tracked down the bridgy instagram scrape errors you saw a while back when i tried turning it on
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aaronpk oh yay
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tantek does that mean we should drop it to say 64k? (rounding up to a power of 2) based on that evidence?
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Loqi :D
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snarfed turns out the instagram API is wildly inconsistent, at least about likes, and the HTML is much more consistent. eg. the API will tell you a photo has 10 likes but will only give you 4 of them. the HTML gives you all 10.
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/603#issuecomment-202981452
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snarfed whee
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tantek HTML++
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aaronpk lol instagram
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Loqi HTML has 4 karma
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tantek snarfed now THAT is a great data point for HTML > API
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snarfed eh maybe
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tantek or rather, HTML > JSON API
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snarfed kinda orthogonal, more like just a bug, but meh!
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snarfed tantek: re webmention resp size, personally i wouldn't vote for a particularly tight size cap around 56KB. 1MB seems fine.
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tantek snarfed, point is, if that "bug" (saying "10 likes" but only showing 4 of them) was in the HTML, people would notice, it would get fixed ASAP
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tantek and maybe it was
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tantek but because the bug is in the less visible JSON API, it lingers and lags the quality of the HTML
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kylewm tantek: in instagram's case it's a JSON API being rendered client-side in HTML :P
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aaronpk IIRC the cap in the webmention spec is not a hard cap, just a suggestion
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tantek kylewm: in that case then why the difference?
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kylewm I think it's a dogfooding fail, they are giving us a crap API
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tantek kylewm: I don't believe IG's HTML is using their own *developer* JSON API
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snarfed tantek: eh, maybe. API data isn't equivalent to invisible metadata - it's very visible to API users - but i hear you
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tantek snarfed, didn't say *invisible*
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snarfed i know. that was the implication though. :P
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tantek but rather *less visible*. it's a spectrum
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snarfed "less visible"
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snarfed sure
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tantek I was being quite deliberately precise there
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tantek not implying anything
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kylewm I was just pointing out that snarfed isn't exactly scraping from HTML, he's pulling a JSON blob out of the HTML and parsing that
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snarfed kylewm: true, but tantek's point is also true, since that JSON blob is converted directly to user-visible data
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kylewm now where did i put that steve yegge post
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snarfed oh god. they're good, but SO LONG
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snarfed the man needed an editor
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kylewm has a soft spot for people who wish they were David Foster Wallace
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snarfed dfw++
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Loqi dfw has 1 karma
R2ZER0_, dietrich_, ben_thatmust, tonious_, petermolnar_, strugee, loic_m, Kongaloosh, MylesBraithwaite, minsky, halorgium, snarfed, snarfed1, JonathanNeal, ramsey, CaptainCalliope, jden, KevinMarks and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks] Congressional question for news genius: https://twitter.com/RepKClark/status/714862049520652289?s=09
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@RepKClark .@slate has a point http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2016/03/news_genius_wants_to_annotate_the_entire_web_at_what_cost.html I asked @genius to consider how they are enabling abuse & harassment [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/714862049520652289)
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@misuba Jesus, the indieweb tribal war makes me wanna buy thousands of dollars of Facebook stock (twitter.com/_/status/714873790786719744)
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tantek wat?
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gRegorLove I was followed on Twitter by someone I don't know and added to the list "Genius" which has a lot of News Genius editors and employees.
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gRegorLove Odd.
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tantek ah, this previous tweet: https://twitter.com/misuba/status/699755289013137408
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@misuba Nowadays, I think of indieweb stuff vs. online abuse in terms of economic reforms vs. racism. That is, I doubt they'll do that much to help. (twitter.com/_/status/699755289013137408)
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snarfed heh. misaligned goals much?
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2012-05-21_first_agree_on_the_goal
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] First, agree on the goal
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tantek aaronpk, could you try reaching out again in response to https://twitter.com/misuba/status/714873790786719744 ? what war? links to what tribes? wat?
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@misuba Jesus, the indieweb tribal war makes me wanna buy thousands of dollars of Facebook stock (twitter.com/_/status/714873790786719744)
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tantek snarfed: aaronpk reached out previously on that "goals" topic: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/699780468586074114
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@aaronpk @misuba Interesting... would love to hear more about this analogy. Come to the next HWC to talk about it? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-02-24-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/699780468586074114)
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tantek snarfed++ good post summarizing the different goals problem :)
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Loqi snarfed has 209 karma
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snarfed thanks tantek!
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kylewm "trival war" tweet is probably refrencing csarven's tweets from this morning, yeah?
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[aaronpk] I would assume so. I'll ping him again when I'm back at my computer
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kylewm I wouldn't bother ;)
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[aaronpk] He's come to IWC and HWC tho
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kylewm yeah so he knows what's up, and likes to kvetch on twitter sometimes
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myfreeweb l
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tantek kylewm: "tribal" implies "tribes" more than one, I'm curious to know *what* are these tribes he's referring to?
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tantek we've got quite a diverse set of folks in IWC (people, countries, etc.) from many different "tribes" and I'm not aware of any war here
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kylewm SOLID vs. Microformats if I'm inferring correctly
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tantek kylewm: really? who characterized SOLID as IndieWeb? That's news!
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tantek as in, he did say "indieweb tribal" so I'm assuming that means among those who (at least) self-label as indieweb
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kylewm https://twitter.com/mylesbyrne/status/711911336733712384
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@mylesbyrne @csarven Is it because ... SOLID = indieweb victory (despite the inevitable NIH reflex) ?? (twitter.com/_/status/711911336733712384)
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tantek I was really confused by that too - so many ways to interpret it
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tantek we have an "indieweb" victory every time we help someone be productive with their own personal site, however they do it
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tantek hmm maybe that's worth replying to to ask for clarification
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kylewm maybe, but I doubt you'll get it
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kylewm all these tweets are so oblique
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tantek kylewm: @mylesbyrne does have http://www.mylesbyrne.com/ FWIW so I think it's worth reaching out
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GWG Afternoon
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tantek This is the spirit of indieweb: https://twitter.com/rhiaro/status/709360528473374720
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@rhiaro @brembs @csarven @clange @SoerenAuer @nicolagreco I wish I had the answer to mass adoption, but all I can do right now is start with me (twitter.com/_/status/709360528473374720)
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tantek both re: selfdogfooding and the mass adoption premature focus anti-pattern
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GWG tantek, I need to do more me.
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tantek GWG, yes! I believe it's what the kids mean when they say "you do you!"
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kylewm It just doesn't make senes to me when people are like "this group is so closed minded because they like their thing instead of mine"
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kylewm that's not what close minded means...
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tantek kylewm: heh yeah.
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bear when you are part of a cargo cult, other views are close-minded
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aaronpk lol
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tantek reminds me of those that cry censorship when they see a /code-of-conduct
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gRegorLove Heh, yes. I've seen so many "free speech" / "censorship" comments Re: News Genius. It's rather frustrating.
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GWG I haven't posted on my site in a while is what I meant
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tantek GWG, I sympathize :)
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GWG Doing a bunch of bug fixes on my code doesn't help if I don't post either
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tantek GWG, try a cycle:
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tantek 1. do a bug fix, 2. commit/push, 3. post a brief note on your own site about it. 4. repeat
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voxpelli needs to practice the "brief note" part more :P
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@indiewebcamp @mylesbyrne what do you mean by “indieweb victory”? every time #indiewebcamp helps someone be productive with their site it's a victory! ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/714891392368021504)
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@indiewebcamp @misuba #indiewebcamp is a very diverse international community helping each other, could you expand (link?) what you mean by “tribal”? ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/714892021488418816)
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GWG voxpelli, amen
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why we built Known" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known
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Loqi [indieweb] "A short note about web standards from your friends at Known" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at
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Loqi [indieweb] "Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support." by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better
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@misuba @indiewebcamp @t it's someone from Team SOLID this time. (twitter.com/_/status/714893496369487872)
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@cindyfsolomon RT @kevinmarks: http://www.wired.com/2016/03/best-to-do-list-app/?mbid=indieweb "Why can't you automate and optimise my anomie?" (twitter.com/_/status/714701118706683905)
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@indiewebcamp @misuba @t if there’s a specific issue please send it to #indiewebcamp. Meanwhile, how can we help you with http://gibberish.com :) ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/714894951167856640)
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tantek ^^^ hey Loqi you ate the ? at the end of that URL that was punctuation, not part of the URL!
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Loqi grins profusely
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gRegorLove gives Loqi a URL
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Loqi eats the URL
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gRegorLove Bad Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek @Withknown > .well-known
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+330) "/* mass adoption */ add positive selfdogfood statement by rhiaro in contrast to mass adoption" (view diff)
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aaronpk is a ? attached to the end of the URL always safe to remove?
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aaronpk turns out matching URLs in text is really hard
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tantek aaronpk: it is, but it's also fixable, one use-case at a time.
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tantek and it's matching *intended* URLs in authored text, rather than just "matching URLs in text"
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tantek since "matching URLs" implies following the syntax of the URL spec to match them, which in a text authored context gives you wrong answers (like this ? example)
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aaronpk true
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tantek the human authoring context is more important than the technical specification
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bear ? at the end of a url is followed by non-whitespace items - so a \?\w would make the ? punctuation
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aaronpk also has to include ? at the end of the string
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aaronpk as in \?$ needs to make ? punctuation as well
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bear waves hands and let's the magic happen
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KevinMarks this is interesting about how CSS accretes: http://mrmrs.io/writing/2016/03/24/scalable-css/
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bear I would work up a ? followed by one or more non-whitespace chars == url
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aaronpk sounds reasonable
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kylewm I like the way cassis handles this, matches the path greedily and then iteratively "gives back" punctuation at the end of the match
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tantek thanks kylewm :)
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tantek.com edited /2016/MIT/Guest_List (+79) "confirmed attendance, and checked people I remembered - all wiki/indie RSVPs made it!" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Phonegap (+27) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+562) "going to IWC Nürnberg!" (view diff)
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tantek fellow IWC MIT participants, could you look over https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/MIT/Guest_List#RSVPs_from_other_sites and "checkmark" anyone you remember that attended? I've added a bunch off the top of my head, but would be great to recognize everyone who came!
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tantek if it helps, check out https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/MIT#Photos
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tantek !tell adactio any thoughts about an IWC Brighton this year? Perhaps sometime in 2016-09-24…26 date range? a few of us likely to be in Portugal for W3C TPAC week ending 2016-09-23. cc: aaronpk
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gregorlove.com edited /2016/Guest_List (+343) "/* Participants */ +me" (view diff)
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@jkphl Best news of the day: Really happy that @t can make it and join our #indiewebcamp in Nuremberg in less than 3 weeks. Yay! #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/714931793795948544)
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tantek (aww blush)
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KevinMarks hm, I think http://httparchive.org/trends.php only showing averages is misleading
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@workingdraft RT @jkphl Best news of the day: Really happy that @t can make it and join our #indiewebcamp in Nuremberg in less than 3 weeks. Yay! #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/714932395825299456)
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@misuba @indiewebcamp @t gib is unhappy because the wordpress indieweb package is a bit... large. mostly I just need to make the time. thanks tho. (twitter.com/_/status/714935304889589760)
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@bele_e RT @jkphl Best news of the day: Really happy that @t can make it and join our #indiewebcamp in Nuremberg in less than 3 weeks. Yay! #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/714936496193740801)
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kylewm vague feedback is vague
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gRegorLove And seemingly unrelated to SOLID
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gRegorLove Might be referring to https://plugins.svn.wordpress.org/indieweb/trunk/class-tgm-plugin-activation.php which is ~3600 LOC. Large, but it shouldn't cause problems... ::shrug::
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tantek I think "gib" is shorthand for his personal domain
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gRegorLove That's what I was thinking
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gRegorLove He's on Wordpress, so it fits
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gRegorLove "A little embarrassed to be powered by WordPress" credit link in the footer, heh
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tantek what is the wordpress indieweb package?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wordpress indieweb package" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10H0
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gRegorLove What is IndieWeb plugin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10H1
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tantek huh
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tantek GWG - perhaps reply to https://twitter.com/misuba/status/714935304889589760 asking if you can help and what in particular about the "wordpress indieweb package" is large? I'm not sure I understand.
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@misuba @indiewebcamp @t gib is unhappy because the wordpress indieweb package is a bit... large. mostly I just need to make the time. thanks tho. (twitter.com/_/status/714935304889589760)
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tantek gRegorLove: re: "seemingly unrelated to SOLID" - I think his original "war" complaint was about that, but yes, regarding his personal site, that seems unrelated to SOLID
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tantek so perhaps we can help
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tantek.com edited /related_events (+170) "/* Silo Examples */ 2016-03-29 update" (view diff)
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tantek what are featured photos?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "featured photos" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10H2
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kylewm featured photos are /featured
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loqi.me created /featured_photos (+21) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-29/line/1459295656970 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek featured photos are a profile feature that allows the user to pick a few photos to show in a box on their profile, supported by [[Facebook]] (since 2016-03-29).
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tantek oops too slow
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tantek they're not actually the same thing AFAIK
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kylewm hmm OK, I didn't know about Facebook's feature
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aaronpk oh is that new?
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aaronpk interesting
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tantek.com edited /featured_photos (+803) "dfn different, no indieweb examples, silo examples FB, see also" (view diff)
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tantek seems to have just launched: https://indiewebcamp.com/featured_photos#Facebook