#indiewebcamp 2016-04-16

2016-04-16 UTC
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kylewm wee finally fixed the mf2 bug on my site where e-content contained the title and stuff
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GWG That's good
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kylewm hmm ok mention-client-php fails #13, 15, 17
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kylewm Loqi what time is it where aaronpk is?
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aaronpk WAY TOO LATE
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aaronpk my site will tell you tho
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kylewm 3am! go to sleep!
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aaronpk how does mention-client fail those? you might need to upgrade. i'm passing them in my dev copy
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aaronpk of webmention.rocks
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aaronpk with dev copy of p3k
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kylewm ohhh
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kylewm I uncharacteristically have origin = my fork, not yours
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aaronpk i have a favor to ask
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kylewm yas?
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aaronpk i'm launching a pretty huge change to webmention.rocks but i need to go to sleep
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aaronpk can you all play with it and make sure it still works?
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aaronpk and tell me if i broke everything so that i can fix it in the mornign?
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kylewm definitely
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kylewm we'll do better than we did on the reacji
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aaronpk tests 1-21 haven't changed, but please test those to make sure they stil accept things as expected
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aaronpk there is a new kind of test! https://webmention.rocks/update/1
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Update Test #1
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aaronpk hopefully the instructions are clear
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aaronpk sorry in advance for the ugly a/b/c checkboxes, the UI will improve but the functionality is the same
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kylewm upgraded mention-client-php, and 1-21 pass now!
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kylewm aaronpk++ on that
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aaronpk woo!
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Loqi aaronpk has 116 karma
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kylewm lgtm!
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aaronpk wow that's kind of neat
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aaronpk others should feel free to try too! there's plenty of different code paths that need testing
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aaronpk also let me know if the language could be improved at all, it's a little tricky to describe
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aaronpk and so far both tantek and I did the first step wrong :P
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aaronpk okay refactoring time
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aaronpk gonna simplify this
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tantek first ever user-test where the two people that worked on the UX actually failed the user test
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GWG Good evening
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aaronpk oooookay
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aaronpk updated the test, check it out kylewm
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GWG Does anyone have some php webmention receiving code in your repo you could link to? Trying to get ideas on one section of my revamp.
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GWG Preferably multiple implementations
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tantek and here's where I have to add .rocks support to auto_link
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kylewm showing the in-progress mentions is a good improvement
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aaronpk haha did you not even notice them before? they were on the other page
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aaronpk this is better
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kylewm tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-11/line/1460412101452
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Loqi [kylewm] wonders how long before tantek adds .rocks to cassis
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kylewm aaronpk: yeah I saw them on the other page, just meant that adding them inline was a nice change
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tantek is finding timing bugs
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GWG What else are people excited about?
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GWG I'm curious what might happen tomorrow/today.
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tantek is finding bugs in the update test, passing when he shouldn't be >:D https://webmention.rocks/update/1
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Update Test #1
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tantek (note: sent webmention to second endpoing, while target still linked to first link)
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tantek s/endpoing/endpoint
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bear hmm, my code is going to have a lot of trouble with the step 2 check
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Loqi tantek meant to say: (note: sent webmention to second endpoint, while target still linked to first link)
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bear I can do step 1 (original webmention) and step 3 (new link on a post) but step 2 won't happend because I check source/target url hash to prevent spamming
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aaronpk prevent what from spamming?
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aaronpk presumably you should know that you are trying to send a new webmention
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bear sure, and I do send a new one
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bear but the instructions say to resend to the original one
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bear i'm trying to figure out how to get "1: [X] 2: [ ] 3: [X]" to check of #2
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bear oh, wait, I see
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tantek bear, if you send webmentions to everything you link to, every time you update your post, it should "just work"
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bear yea, see I don't send on update automatically yet, because I'm constantly tweaking things
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bear goes to look at his code
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aaronpk :sigh: i hope i get to sleep at some point tonight
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GWG aaronpk: You can sleep on the plane back
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aaronpk i'm gonna need like two planes worth of sleep
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GWG You have three
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aaronpk zzz
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mblaney GWG: let me know if this helps you: https://gitlab.com/dobrado/dobrado/blob/master/install/Post.php#L841
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Loqi mblaney: gRegorLove left you a message on 4/13 at 9:01am: Awesome! I've added /SimplePie to the wiki noting that. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-13/line/1460563314703
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GWG mblaney: I want to read as many implementations as I can for ideas. So every one helps.
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tantek good night all! have fun with the new Webmention Update test! https://webmention.rocks/update/1
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Loqi night
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bear woo! got the update test working!
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aaronpk bear: woo! All automatically now?
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lukasros Good morning Nuremberg!
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lukasros On my way to the camp.
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bjoern see you there in some minutes :)
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aaronparecki.com created /2016/Nuremberg/Introductions (+1406) "add intro page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2016/Nuremberg/Schedule (+2165) "add schedule" (view diff)
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aaronpk IndieWebCamp Nürnberg is beginning momentarily! you should be able to view the livestream from the top post here: https://plus.google.com/+indiewebcamp
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aaronpk (it's paused right now)
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mblaney there's been some talk of not caching webmention endpoints recently, got me thinking you could add a token query parameter to your endpoint as an authorization technique....
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mblaney maybe only advertise it to people who are logged into your site? It would need to be standardized I guess.
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sknebel (stream online, BTW)
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sknebel (in case someone else wants to watch it)
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tantek demos started here at IndieWebCamp Nürnberg!
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tantek adactio showed his website, demonstrated IndieAuth via the rel-me links in his sidebar and logging into IndieWebCamp.com, and discussed POSSE
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KevinMarks the #indieweb feed from twitter isn't showing up in irc
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tantek tantek showed his website, similar design, demonstrated left/right navigation, motivation for starting posting to his own site in 2010
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tantek aaronpk showed his site, signing into it, signing into Quill, writing a reply to adactio's post, having it show up on adactio.com
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tantek ... noting that his name didn't show up on the post on adactio.com, aaronpk threw an edge case at adactio.com
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tantek ... aaronpk notes that he used IndieAuth on his own site to sign in
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tantek ... Quill uses Micropub
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tantek ... to get the comment to show up on adactio.com, he used Webmention
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tantek (KevinMarks hasn't been showing up for a couple of days)
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GWG I do enjoy a livestream.
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tantek (GWG is it working?)
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tantek Pelle - I'm voxpelli.com and have a different kind of home page and site - static page with Jekyll
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GWG (Yes. I have the Youtube Live on my TV.)
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tantek I've built a service with the name "A WebMention Endpoint"
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tantek when you sign up you can get Webmentions
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tantek these are received on my site
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tantek these webmentions appear in realtime on my site
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tantek if someone mentions me, it would show up instantly
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tantek I may have to setup pagination soon
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tantek KevinMarks also uses this service on his site
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: Kevin uses brid.gy so if anyone mentions kevin on twitter it shows up on his site (twitter.com/_/status/721253737268953088)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: I have micropub set up too so I can post to my site from my phone, which posts by doing a github pull (twitter.com/_/status/721253905397637122)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: so I can have micropub working even though I use Jekyll (twitter.com/_/status/721253982484738048)
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tantek voxpelli: have also created a RelSpider
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tantek ... focusing on Micropub and Webmention for Jekyll pages
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: I have also made a crawler called relspider, but now I'm focusing on micropub and webmention for jekyll (twitter.com/_/status/721254199699316736)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: apart from the functionality of these tools, the other reason we use them is because they are well-defined and easy (twitter.com/_/status/721254435742158848)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: the technical stuff underneath is in a good state, but it is fun to work on the user interface as well (twitter.com/_/status/721254567770513409)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: the other thing I have is these 3 buttons on the bottom of my site that allow retweet, reply and like (twitter.com/_/status/721254677380218881)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: this enables an indieconfig that loads a configuration for you to use your own site, or fall back to twitter (twitter.com/_/status/721254844602978304)
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GWG I can't see the screen at all, but I can see everyone in the room and hear them
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KevinMarks the screen is blown out,yes
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KevinMarks anyone shown woodwind?
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tantek hi barnabywalters !!!
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tantek hello again
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: I'm Barnaby and my website is regrettably https://waterpigs.co.uk (twitter.com/_/status/721255290348441600)
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sknebel Hi Nürnberg!
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GWG barnabywalters is there? Exciting.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: if you go to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-16 we have great logs of the irc and you can join in by talking to us (twitter.com/_/status/721255553998155776)
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GWG Couldn't resist.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: irc is where a lot of the indieweb discussion goes on, and we have logs that go on forever (twitter.com/_/status/721255637431283713)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we deliberately decided to not have a mailing list, to encourage people to be brief or post on their website (twitter.com/_/status/721255815982772225)
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tantek barnabywalters: I'm showing how I create notes
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tantek ... demoing live streaming from my server
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tantek ... any audio
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tantek ... connecting to an Icecast server running on my website
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: so what I want to demo is live audio streaming using my own server using PureData (twitter.com/_/status/721255977748733952)
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tantek ... I can copy the link to this m3u URL to a note on my site
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: I built this puredata patch that connects to an icecast server running on my website (twitter.com/_/status/721256077434687489)
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tantek ... I've done live streaming before but not inside a note
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: so I can copy the m3u from this to my site and make a note that posts it (twitter.com/_/status/721256183634518016)
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tantek ... demonstrates note with location information
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: so I'm aadding a stream in an <audio> tag, and a geolocation (twitter.com/_/status/721256357207371776)
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tantek ... gets an error and shows his website
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tantek ... shows pure data
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tantek ... doing a loop with his voice
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KevinMarks that worked briefly
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: what I want is to archive this with a link to the recorded audio when I finish streaming (twitter.com/_/status/721256846397411328)
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GWG Does that mean we get another musical number?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: because micropub lets you update posts, I should be able to replace the m3u with an mp3 link (twitter.com/_/status/721257127726227456)
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KevinMarks barnabywalters: can you just put the icecast mp3 link in an audio tag directly?
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tantek joschi: I am using typo3 for my website
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KevinMarks that should work fro short streams
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tantek ... a pretty common content management system here
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tantek ... I am accepting and even sending Webmentions
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I use typo3 for my website https://jkphl.is/ because we use that for everything (twitter.com/_/status/721257547852877825)
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tantek ... thi is an article and I am gathering all the replies from the platform
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tantek ... there may be duplicates because I'm using Bridgy and doing my own stuff
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I am accepting and even sending webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/721257664303513600)
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tantek ... you can reply to my posts on Twitter, Facebook, and Google+, and you can create replies here as well
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I am collecting responses from sites using both brid.gy and my own code (twitter.com/_/status/721257788572372993)
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tantek ... but I'm not content with that, I want to post more status update, photos
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tantek ... I'm really interested in posting checkins
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tantek ... I don't right now because it is too complicated
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tantek ... I dislike having to store all this in a database
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tantek ... Half a year ago I started writing a new thing Apparat
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: i would like to post more status updates, photos and check-ins. It's too complicated rightnow (twitter.com/_/status/721257964800208896)
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tantek ... Showing it for the first time today
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tantek ... I'm constructing a set of libraries
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tantek ... I'm interested in posting different kinds of posts, storing them in text form somewhere, as simple as possible
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tantek ... in the file system
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: half a year ago I started writing a concept called apparat, and am building it as a set of libraries (twitter.com/_/status/721258142038913024)
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tantek ... this should be the minimum requirement
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I want to store them as simply as possible in text form in the filesystem (twitter.com/_/status/721258224763146240)
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tantek ... github.com/apparat/apparat
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tantek ... ./blog/master/doc/CONCEPT.md
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Nataliya 👍
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tantek welcome Nataliya!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I have a ystem for storing files that are markdown based and I would like to get this in a browser this weekend (twitter.com/_/status/721258518100185088)
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tantek Lukas: I was using app.net
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tantek ... they launched a few years back
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tantek ... like Twitter but never shut down API
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tommorris wishes he was in Nürnberg right now.
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tantek ... so I built something on top
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tantek ... My site takes all the posts from the API and renders it in an interface
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: I am hosting my site on a silo called https://t.co/WxXz13u1Dx, which is a twitter rival you pay for (twitter.com/_/status/721258856828022784)
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tommorris app.net *says* they'll never shut down their API. [[site-deaths]] will be the judge of that. ;)
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tantek ... if you look at the source of my site, it has things like microformats
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: my site takes all the post from the API and presents them in an interface (twitter.com/_/status/721259004236820480)
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tantek ... it also supports webmentions
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@teckgeer RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I am accepting and even sending webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/721259007730655232)
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tommorris "the indieweb style" is a thing...?
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tantek (tommorris cue Gangnam Style parody)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: favorites, reposts and replies come from the https://app.net/ APi and I translate them into microformats (twitter.com/_/status/721259140283285504)
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tantek Lukas: I can do my own reply through the API
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@jkphl @jeena Alles OK bei dir? Wir haben schon losgelegt ... #indiewebcamp #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721259290133139456)
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tantek ... using github.com/LukasRos/phpADNSite
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: I also accept indieweb replies via webmention, and I can send response to my site and https://app.net/ (twitter.com/_/status/721259370223415296)
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tantek ... I'm using PESOS from Appdotnet
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tantek ... but even if Appdotnet is shutdown, I can still server everything from local storage
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: my code is up at https://github.com/LukasRos/phpADNSite - it is PESOS rather than POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/721259492785197056)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @LukasRosenstock: but if https://app.net/ shuts down I can still serve from local storage (twitter.com/_/status/721259590944432128)
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@diddleapp RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I have a ystem for storing files that are markdown based and I would like to get this in a browser this weekend (twitter.com/_/status/721259654861484032)
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KevinMarks anyone got woodwind to demo?
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@Teckreview RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @jkphl: I have a ystem for storing files that are markdown based and I would like to get this in a browser this weekend (twitter.com/_/status/721259656551800832)
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KevinMarks is twitter.com down for everyone else, or just me?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I've been working on a tool to help you debug your webmentions - it's called https://webmention.rocks/ (twitter.com/_/status/721260072945508352)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: each test shows the webmentions received as comments, likes and emoji on the post (twitter.com/_/status/721260205753937920)
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Nataliya twitter looks fine to me ;)
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tommorris KevinMarks: WFM
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: https://webmention.rocks/ also sends very detailed error messages, unlike most practical webmention implementations (twitter.com/_/status/721260449866653696)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: If I click here to post a favorite, it shows up on the other site straight away (twitter.com/_/status/721260592934334464)
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tommorris sees that IWC LA is a thing; starts checking LHR-LAX flights.
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neuro` Hi indiewebcampers.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: once you get it working on 1, make sure you test on all 21 as it will find edge cases in your code (twitter.com/_/status/721260730629152768)
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tommorris up next, tantek
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aaronpk neuro`: hello!
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tommorris tantek: photo tagging syndicated out via bridgy publish to post on Twitter, Flickr and FB
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: one thing I added to photo posts this year is person tagging. I tag people on my post, and use brid.gy publish (twitter.com/_/status/721261106669436928)
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tommorris the people tagging syndicates not just the photo
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: that shares it to other sites like facebook and twitter, and transfers the person tags (twitter.com/_/status/721261236533530624)
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aaronpk (i'm glad that audio didn't make it to the big speakers)
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tommorris tantek: also added videos with html5 poster frames
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tommorris tantek: "I can support whatever the web platform supports" - on twitter, only shows the first frame not a chosen poster frame
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tommorris tantek: "I believe the experience on my site is better than the experience on Twitter"
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neuro` Hi @aaronpk
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tommorris tantek: "you don't have to be content with what large companies are providing, you can do a better job"
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: on my site I get to choose the poster frame for the video, not just the first frame like you get on twitter (twitter.com/_/status/721261646623215616)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: I want to show indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/721261713908228097)
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tommorris poster frame documentation on developer.mozilla.org - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/video
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: https://webmention.rocks/ also sends very detailed error messages, unlike most practical webmention implementations (twitter.com/_/status/721261789506322433)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: If I click here to post a favorite, it shows up on the other site straight away (twitter.com/_/status/721261790437490688)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: once you get it working on 1, make sure you test on all 21 as it will find edge cases in your code (twitter.com/_/status/721261791435694080)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @t: one thing I added to photo posts this year is person tagging. I tag people on my post, and use brid.gy publish (twitter.com/_/status/721261793440571392)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @t: that shares it to other sites like facebook and twitter, and transfers the person tags (twitter.com/_/status/721261794300403712)
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@IMJACKTG RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @t: on my site I get to choose the poster frame for the video, not just the first frame like you get on twitter (twitter.com/_/status/721261795961368576)
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tantek Welcome Jeena (to the room here in Nürnberg)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: if you're working on adding indieweb features to your app indiewebify.me helps a lot (twitter.com/_/status/721261914786029568)
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@placerdiario #Trackbacks vs #Pingbacks vs Webmentions for #WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ https://twitter.com/placerdiario/status/721262056280891393/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721262056280891393)
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tommorris the G+/YT stream has just gone down for me
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tommorris oh no, its back. just firefox being odd
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voxpelli (if someone tried to mention me earlier, turns out Jekyll 3 had broken my site: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/commit/bb1368dd568d66c6ea1f8a633e791603b525874c )
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: we've all gravitated to these technologies now, but the main thing is about having your own website (twitter.com/_/status/721262487228846081)
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KevinMarks github pages can be pretty easy - see http://reddoric.com/ for a simple example
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: there's lots of levels here - son't be overwhelmed, it builds up for simple building blocks (twitter.com/_/status/721263032941297664)
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david.shanske.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+315) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: this is a barcamp style event, which is basically organised chaos - we just have rooms and times (twitter.com/_/status/721263781238673413)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Schedule (-62) "/* Saturday April 16, 2016 */" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: many people have used this including @kevinmarks - you can see I need to add pagination (twitter.com/_/status/721253589302317056)
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@TempieLanehart RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: I have built tools using webmention so you can have mentions on your static sites, like github pages (twitter.com/_/status/721253514220027904)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: this is at http://webmention.herokuapp.com and you sign up with github, and use it for your sites (twitter.com/_/status/721253473040343040)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @voxpelli: I have built tools using webmention so you can have mentions on your static sites, like github pages (twitter.com/_/status/721253293293506560)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: then when I reply to Jeremy's site it uses webmention to tell him I commented on his site (twitter.com/_/status/721252856502886402)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: so you saw Quill as an editor, that uses micropub to post to my site (twitter.com/_/status/721252747656503296)
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@jkphl RT @webrocker Things about to get started… :) @adactio @tollwerk @indiewebcamp #nueww https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721233181714837504/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721252696196583424)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: now I have a copy of my reply on my site, and Jeremy has one on his and we're not replying on twitter to converse (twitter.com/_/status/721252638537433088)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I replied to a post of Jeremy's with a comment one my site, adn it sent a webmention, so his site shows the comment (twitter.com/_/status/721252461063876608)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: This means I can have fine-grained permissions for each micropub client (twitter.com/_/status/721252275101024256)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: if someone likes a post I just show their faces with a heart, but if they reply I show the full post (twitter.com/_/status/721251637923340288)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: what I want to show is replies - Jeremy said he gets comments and replies back from twitter (twitter.com/_/status/721251514468212736)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @aaronpk: I'm Aaron of https://aaronparecki.com/ - this is my website which is similar, short notes, blogposts, photos etc (twitter.com/_/status/721251386151858176)
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@williamheath @kevinmarks @adactio Count me in. I want to be part of the #IndieWeb #Posse (twitter.com/_/status/721251348998680577)
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@Teckreview RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: from my perspective as a site owner I didn't need to do much to set this up, and I get lots of benefits (twitter.com/_/status/721251254337433600)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: something I did recently was make all my silo accounts private, so if you want to share my posts you use my url not theirs (twitter.com/_/status/721251211920457729)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: similar to Jeremy I copy my posts to twitter - if it's a photo I cross post to facebook as well as twitter (twitter.com/_/status/721251018206547968)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: one of the things that motivated me to use my own site rather than twitter was not having arrows for next post (twitter.com/_/status/721250815470657536)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: this is my site http://tantek.com that does many of the same things as Jeremy (twitter.com/_/status/721250646528245760)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: longer posts I share to medium for "Engagement" - you connect to the world (twitter.com/_/status/721250517662507008)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: this is the idea of POSSE, which is a terrible acronym for Post on your Own Site, Share Elsewhere (twitter.com/_/status/721250356739575809)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: to get the responses back on my own site via webmention I use a service called brid.gy that sends them to me (twitter.com/_/status/721250085888266240)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: now the point is not just to keep things to yourself on your own site, but to share them out to twitter or flickr too (twitter.com/_/status/721249964781936640)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: something I decided to do a while ago was to post my tweets to my own site first (twitter.com/_/status/721249838436888576)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: from my perspective as a site owner I didn't need to do much to set this up, and I get lots of benefits (twitter.com/_/status/721249699576066048)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: all I need to do is add a few characters to my own site to mark this up, as the silos link back (twitter.com/_/status/721249594739453952)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: that lets me use this clever thing called indieauth to log into my own site using twitter or facebook or something (twitter.com/_/status/721249464221044736)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: you'll notice there's an attribute on each of these links that says rel="me" (twitter.com/_/status/721249210205630464)
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@egoexpress IndieWebCamp Nürnberg 2016 is live! https://plus.google.com/events/cfi2461bb39rd4ajmr85huj2dp0 #indieweb #indiewebcamp #iwc16 (twitter.com/_/status/721247576847048704)
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@jkphl .@indiewebcamp Nuremberg soon to kick off! Still some ppl missing ... #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721245342302408704/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721245342302408704)
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@oddballempire RT @kevinmarks “Because Facebook feeds on personal sharing the way a vampire feeds on blood…” @roughtype http://www.roughtype.com/?p=6887 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721243018691522560)
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@LukasRosenstock At @indiewebcamp. #indieweb #nueww (@ tollwerk GmbH in Nürnberg, Deutschland) https://www.swarmapp.com/c/ijVadobpCf2 (twitter.com/_/status/721242993123074048)
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@LukasRosenstock On my way to @indiewebcamp. #indieweb (@ Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof in Nürnberg, Bavaria) https://www.swarmapp.com/c/5eS574nlvEw (twitter.com/_/status/721236890670735360)
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@blackforever_de RT @jkphl Creating content on the web? Own it! There are 7 seats left for our @indiewebcamp tomorrow. Take your chance! http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721235542365626368)
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@webrocker Things about to get started… :) @adactio @tollwerk @indiewebcamp #nueww https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721233181714837504/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721233181714837504)
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@mschottenhammer RT @jkphl Starting early today, final preps. @indiewebcamp Nuremberg 2016 starting at 9:30. It's not too late to join! https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721210281020518400)
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@jkphl Starting early today, final preps. @indiewebcamp Nuremberg 2016 starting at 9:30. It's not too late to join! https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Nuremberg #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721202916049166338)
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@jkphl RT @webrocker Good morning @indiewebcamp nuremberg. it's raining outside, let's braining inside :) but 1st things 1st: 👉🏼☕️👈🏻 (twitter.com/_/status/721196420963938304)
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@webrocker Good morning @indiewebcamp nuremberg. it's raining outside, let's braining inside :) but 1st things 1st: 👉🏼☕️👈🏻 (twitter.com/_/status/721195511949225984)
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@webgefrickel Vor 5h noch Cult of Luna live gesehen und jetzt schon aufm Weg zum @indiewebcamp… Huiiii! https://twitter.com/webgefrickel/status/721174662940663808/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721174662940663808)
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@wildwonderweb RT @kevinmarks “Because Facebook feeds on personal sharing the way a vampire feeds on blood…” @roughtype http://www.roughtype.com/?p=6887 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721166598166421504)
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@zpinternational RT @INC_says Want to submit your #indie #indiefilm #indieweb #fanfilm , #indieseries #documentary to INC ? Use this https://independentnetworkchannel.wordpress.com/submissions/ 📸🎥📹📽 (twitter.com/_/status/721149188784783360)
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@indyfilmwis RT @INC_says Want to submit your #indie #indiefilm #indieweb #fanfilm , #indieseries #documentary to INC ? Use this https://independentnetworkchannel.wordpress.com/submissions/ 📸🎥📹📽 (twitter.com/_/status/721148276263792640)
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@jkphl Not w/o obstacles, but had a nice inofficial @indiewebcamp warmup w/ @webrocker @aaronpk @t @adactio @Wordridden Thx https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721127344396713984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721127344396713984)
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@havi RT @kevinmarks “Because Facebook feeds on personal sharing the way a vampire feeds on blood…” @roughtype http://www.roughtype.com/?p=6887 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721123244778991616)
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@mhaseneyer Session-Planung auf dem IndieWebCamp #iwc16 #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721266052399808512)
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aaronpk ooh here comes the backfill
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@evandropastor Any one knows this service/app https://withknown.com ? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/720680463820566529)
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@kevinmarks My notes from the opening demos of IndieWebCamp Nürnberg are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampnuremberg2016.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721266782636347392)
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@thegreatgonzo RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @adactio: if you're working on adding indieweb features to your app indiewebify.me helps a lot (twitter.com/_/status/721266889209618434)
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KevinMarks right, I'm off to sleep now as it's 2:22am in California
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aaronpk good night!
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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@nueww RT @mhaseneyer Session-Planung auf dem IndieWebCamp #iwc16 #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721269465753772032)
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@mapkyca @evandropastor You can use it for your blog, like wordpress, but it's new, modern and #indieweb from the ground up. (twitter.com/_/status/721277129133060096)
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tantek discussing Salmentions & SWAT0
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tantek noting possible loops
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tantek and how to avoid
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tantek Which is easier? Adding a reader to your site (e.g. polling a whitelist of folloings with granary), or adding micropub support?
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tantek voxpelli is close to getting A & B roles working
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@jkphl First round of sessions @indiewebcamp Nuremberg. #Webmention basics & Responsive Design #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721283291589033984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721283291589033984)
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@nueww RT @jkphl First round of sessions @indiewebcamp Nuremberg. #Webmention basics & Responsive Design #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721283291589033984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721283774684741633)
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aaronpk which is easier? for me definitely adding micropub support, but I might be biased ;)
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aaronpk two new webmentions on https://webmention.rocks/test/5
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Discovery Test #5
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tantek is it possible to do Salmentions as a service? E.g. extend "A WebMention Endpoint" to support them?
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tantek voxpelli is also wanting to add reacji support to A WebMention Endpoint"
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tantek Salmention / SWAT0 session - we are discussing what each of us needs to get working to be able to do SWAT0 role A, B, and/or C
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KevinMarks acegiak can do all 3 roles in wordperss
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tantek KevinMarks, supposedly right, acegiak hasn't actually tried that with anyone? Usually it takes several attempts to get SWAT0 to actually work
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tantek !tell acegiak have you tried SWAT0 with two other indieweb sites?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek Jeena is pretty sure he is ready to test doing role A
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tantek voxpelli is close to being ready to do role B
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aaronpk the intro to webmention session is morphing into an intro to microformats
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aaronpk now everyone is trying to get a blank comment with their URL to appear on https://webmention.rocks/test/5, and then to update their comment with author info, post content, etc
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Loqi [Webmention Rocks!] Discovery Test #5
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barnabywalters aaronpk: pretty sure that usually happens :)
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@LukasRosenstock RT @jkphl First round of sessions @indiewebcamp Nuremberg. #Webmention basics & Responsive Design #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721283291589033984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721288694607540224)
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tantek.com edited /SWAT0 (+80) "/* A must support */ clarify must send webmentions, showing comments, properly marked up" (view diff)
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tantek updated https://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0#A_must_support per our session discussion on SWAT0 and Salmentions
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@krautsource Neu in meinem Blog: Meine erste Webmention http://www.krautsource.info/meine-erste-webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/721291823562498049)
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@webgefrickel Awesome Food @indiewebcamp - thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/721300144906510336)
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@Ramdasoul Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions pour WordPress: Ne pensez-vous pas qu’il serait mieux, s’il y avait un ... http://blogpascher.com/plugins-wordpress/trackbacks-vs-pingbacks-vs-webmentions-pour-wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/721303180332544000)
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@egoexpress The food is awesome as well. #indieweb #iwc16 #indiewebcamp #nuremberg https://twitter.com/egoexpress/status/721303598575947776/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721303598575947776)
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tantek reconvening for second session!
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tantek Homepage discussions
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tantek led by Jeena
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tantek shows his homepage https://jeena.net
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tantek left column: photo, about
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tantek right column (2/3) latest photo, note, article post (and event if there was there)
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tantek aaronpk: shows his old homepage http://2015.aaronparecki.com
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tantek two columns, main stream in left column
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tantek now: https://aaronparecki.com/
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tantek stream primary, one column
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tantek photo, about all at the bottom
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mblaney aaronpk: could you let me know why webmention.rocks says: "The post did not provide a URL, using source instead"?
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tantek tantek: my home page has two columns also, but when narrow shows just icon, name, tags, search and then stream
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tantek tantek.com
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tantek voxpelli: my site voxpelli.com just shows an about me link at the top, then single column with list of recent blog posts, and then a brief About summary
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tantek aaronpk: 2012.aaronparecki.com - based on a wiki, curated all by hand
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tantek then 2008.aaronparecki.com
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@fredericmarx When filling out signup forms, proletarians have nothing to lose but their first names. #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/fredericmarx/status/721311530910945280/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721311530910945280)
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@webrocker woop whoop @btconf reprazent @indiewebcamp @tollwerk #nueww ☕️☕️👍🏼 https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721311687484272641/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721311687484272641)
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tantek adactio shows https://adactio.com/version1
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tantek !!!! ^^^^^^
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tantek tantek: I'm thinking of adding a "more" link when my home page is in narrow view, that links to the longer bio/description below
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tantek jeena - the links in my bio link to actual things on my site
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tantek aaronpk: - the links in my bio link to tag pages on my site
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tantek aaronpk: but everyone clicks on the video "why R is a vowel"
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tantek adactio: it's kind of like a tag line
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tantek adactio: even you (tantek) could link the words in your tag line to tag pages
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tantek barnaby: I came up some pseudo-philosophical nonsense and emoji separated things
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tantek waterpigs.co.uk
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tantek adactio shows lots of his profile pages on silos
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tantek including Flickr -
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tantek barnaby: why does your Flickr bio say "I am male and taken"? Is Flickr being a dating site?
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tantek adactio: Tumblr
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tantek why isn't that on your own site
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tantek adactio: the silly stuff goes on Tumblr
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tantek adactio: shows instagram
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tantek tantek: my instagram profile uses emoji like barnaby's
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tantek adactio: shows github profile
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tantek including "Contributions" activity
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tantek could you do that for your own site?
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tantek graph? activity? posts
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tantek calendar? archive? visual archive?
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tantek you could do that with your own site
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tantek Jeena I like the organizations area on github profile
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tantek Barnaby I have orgs in the prose of my bio on my home page
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tantek adactio: I have a list of Affiliations on adactio.com/about
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aaronpk i found a semi-archived version of my first site!
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aaronpk look at these sweet table layouts http://web.archive.org/web/20040109091439/http://www.aaronparecki.com/funindex.htm
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aaronpk http://web.archive.org/web/20030807043617/http://www.aaronparecki.com/germany/germanyindex.htm
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@webrocker RT @egoexpress The food is awesome as well. #indieweb #iwc16 #indiewebcamp #nuremberg https://twitter.com/egoexpress/status/721303598575947776/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721319602836234240)
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@webrocker interesting discussion: (how) does pesos / back feeding respect the control of ownership of silo users? #indiewebcamp #nueww @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/721320457287426048)
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@ingodibella RT @egoexpress The food is awesome as well. #indieweb #iwc16 #indiewebcamp #nuremberg https://twitter.com/egoexpress/status/721303598575947776/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721320577122856960)
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@ingodibella RT @egoexpress IndieWebCamp Nürnberg 2016 is live! https://plus.google.com/events/cfi2461bb39rd4ajmr85huj2dp0 #indieweb #indiewebcamp #iwc16 (twitter.com/_/status/721320627064434688)
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@ingodibella RT @jkphl First round of sessions @indiewebcamp Nuremberg. #Webmention basics & Responsive Design #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721283291589033984/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721321431359950849)
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tantek next sessions!
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tantek IndieAMP led by adactio in room 1
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tantek Community led by Jeena in room 3
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bjoern its weird to see tantek type here and sit right next to him irl :)
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aaronpk you get used to it ;-)
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tantek Jeena: how to get new people to show up to your Homebrew Website Club?
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tantek tantek: in SF we find that the more in advance (like a few weeks) you post the event, the more chance of more people. with less notice, less people
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tantek ... and you have to post the events where people see them
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tantek ... e.g. in Portland, use Calagator
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tantek ... in SF, other places, Facebook event
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tantek Jeena: in Göteborg, many people do not use Facebook. Nor meetup. nothing. I email people.
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@jkphl Feel free to visit the fantastic Regenzeit restaurant & have more of it https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=463843927090051 #nueww #indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/egoexpress/status/721303598575947776 (twitter.com/_/status/721328661589307392)
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@jkphl RT @egoexpress IndieWebCamp Nürnberg 2016 is live! https://plus.google.com/events/cfi2461bb39rd4ajmr85huj2dp0 #indieweb #indiewebcamp #iwc16 (twitter.com/_/status/721328744640704512)
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tantek for getting new people started, get them to buy a domain, get on domain, point their github static site to their domain, and fork and use https://github.com/indieweb/blank-gh-site to start their site
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voxpelli reference at GitHub Pages: https://pages.github.com/, could probably be simplified
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tantek see also http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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@jkphl .@adactio showcasing his http://adactio.com #AMP implementation @indiewebcamp #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721329610626056192/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721329610626056192)
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tantek other tips: magazine, poster
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@jkphl About building local communities @indiewebcamp w/ @jeena @t @BarnabyWalters @aaronpk @voxpelli @LukasRosenstock ... https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721330927406866433/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721330927406866433)
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kodfabrik.se edited /Getting_Started (+263) "/* Get a place for your content */ Adding GitHub Pages info as a suggestion to get started quickly" (view diff)
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@jkphl Awesome that we're still getting new registrations for @indiewebcamp day 2! \o/ Keep 'em coming! :) #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721333094918266880/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721333094918266880)
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@egoexpress RT @jkphl About building local communities @indiewebcamp w/ @jeena @t @BarnabyWalters @aaronpk @voxpelli @LukasRosenstock ... https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721330927406866433/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721334442636242944)
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rMdes tantek, aaronpk I wish I was there physically...
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rMdes i couldt organize better and the trial I'm attending is constantly changing audiences dates..so I had to cancel me going to nuremberg and meet you great people
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GWG Things happen
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aaronpk rMdes: sorry to miss you!
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tantek indeed! sorry to miss you rMdes
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tantek next sessions on!
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rMdes tantek, aaronpk another time or next time in Europe
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tantek room 1. media, room 2. static sties, room 3. events
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rMdes one day I should help you bring you to Brussels
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@srbanister Das IndieWeb. Symbolbild. #iwc16 #nueww https://twitter.com/srbanister/status/721340352314142721/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721340352314142721)
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tantek here in events
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tantek talking about how we post events today, where, and how
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tantek Jeena posts indie events and RSVPs
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tantek and posts FB copy of events, and gets FB RSVPs back via Bridgy Backfeed
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tantek question: what if I don't use indieweb or Facebook?
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tantek what do you use?
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tantek what about just by email?
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tantek ... In Germany and Sweden, Twitter is pretty much dead
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tantek ... Or just focused, they use it in very specific ways
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tantek ... media & tech people use it - everybody else not
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tantek ... even celebrities don't use it (Twitter)
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tantek ... the new young celebrities use Instagram
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tantek ... Twitter is just cross-posting, recycling of links
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tantek for invitations, you could POSSE invitations to email with ICS attachment, which people would get in their Calendar UI and they could click Accept / Decline, which sends a reply
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tantek the challenge is how to handle receiving the email response on your server
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tantek another way would be to email with the from being your gmail, and when the recipient responds, it goes into your Google Calendar
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tantek then if you could get your server to act as a CalDAV client that polls your Google Calendar, it could pull back all the RSVPs
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petermolnar long term goals of mine to make response via email to rss feeds received via email
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tantek Jeena: could also work with Outlook emails and MS Exchange
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tantek ... or CalDAV on OwnCloud
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tantek tantek: so backfeed from CalDAV
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tantek create the indie event on your website, POSSE the event to CalDAV
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tantek also if someone comes to your website and sees an event, they should be able to enter their email and get an invitation to the event emailed to them that they can accept
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tantek How do you de-duplicate across copies of event
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tantek s
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tantek e.g. if one silo doesn't provide the email address - hard to de-duplicate
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tantek Martin: also challenge of restricted events, e.g. 60 seats total available, 20 seats from one place, 30 seats from FB etc.
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tantek : you can control for that a little bit, but still hard
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tantek Jeena: Let's talk about how to present events!
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@jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721345336179101697)
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@egoexpress RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721348180986736640)
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@SuVeLu So ein sinnloser und frustrierender Tag im Büro. Hätte ich wohl doch lieber zum @indiewebcamp gehen sollen. Grml. Nächstes Jahr mehr #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721349425688350721)
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tantek looked at how FB does event presentation and has regressed over the years: https://indiewebcamp.com/event#Facebook
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tantek looked at how Jeena shows events on his site: https://jeena.net/events/2
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Göteborg
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tantek tantek has a box in the lower right corner of his home page of upcoming events (manually edited)
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tantek and would like to at least automatically generate that from his RSVP posts
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@fredericmarx This looks really interesting: Hackable 🔧 (via Python 🐍) text editor for iOS http://omz-software.com/editorial/ (via @voxpelli) #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/721350619324354561)
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp#Tantek
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tantek also there's the event design on attending.io e.g. https://attending.io/events/weshapetech
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sknebel oh, right. if I use relative URLs to link between posts on my page it's no wonder my test-WMs aren't validating...
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sknebel (does anybody use WMs between parts of their site?)
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@SteffiRRZE RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721352063905632257)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016/Nuremberg/Schedule (+516) "/* Saturday April 16, 2016 */ add sessions" (view diff)
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tantek last sessions of the day! room 1. Offline / Service Worker, room 3. Mobile & Apps
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@webrocker Brains brainin'… @indiewebcamp @tollwerk #nueww //@adactio https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721356243277901824/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721356243277901824)
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@indiewebcamp RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721357353464041473)
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@jkphl Get an impression of @indiewebcamp Nuremberg day 1! #nueww http:///photos/tollwerk/sets/72157664909577964/ (twitter.com/_/status/721357614270046209)
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@indiewebcamp RT @jkphl Get an impression of @indiewebcamp Nuremberg day 1! #nueww http:///photos/tollwerk/sets/72157664909577964/ (twitter.com/_/status/721357740170440709)
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@webrocker The man @jkphl @indiewebcamp @tollwerk #nueww <3 https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721360883096625152/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721360883096625152)
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aaronparecki.com created /2016/Nuremberg/music (+2239) "add notes" (view diff)
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@justb3a RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721362984145170432)
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@fredericmarx RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721363028453810176)
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@UnchartedWorlds RT @kevinmarks “Because Facebook feeds on personal sharing the way a vampire feeds on blood…” @roughtype http://www.roughtype.com/?p=6887 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721365674489159681)
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@egoexpress Money quote from @adactio: "Service workers are a man-in-the-middle attack on yourself" #iwc16 #indieweb #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721367886258810880)
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@ingodibella RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721370572744212481)
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@ZeldaEpling RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721370574572773376)
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@nueww RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721370655216807941)
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tantek what is responsive content?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "responsive content" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10J4
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2016-04-16-iwc-nbg.gif]]""
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@webrocker wot? day one of @indiewebcamp nuremberg already over. time flies when you're having fun :) #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721380386102710273)
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[kevinmarks] http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-04-13
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@jeena RT @jkphl About building local communities @indiewebcamp w/ @jeena @t @BarnabyWalters @aaronpk @voxpelli @LukasRosenstock ... https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721330927406866433/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721381754909630464)
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@LukasRosenstock RT @egoexpress Money quote from @adactio: "Service workers are a man-in-the-middle attack on yourself" #iwc16 #indieweb #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721383052413399040)
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@jeena Nice, after an intence day at the IndieWebCamp here in Nuernberg I'm at my hot... more at https://jeena.net/photos/221 https://twitter.com/jeena/status/721383731135705089/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721383731135705089)
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@marcthiele @webrocker @indiewebcamp @tollwerk at least I’m with you in form of a mug. ;) Have fun all of you. (twitter.com/_/status/721383980977758209)
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Jeena So I will join you soon at http://www.barfuesser-nuernberg.de/ just needed to get to the hotel first, they got me my luggage back wo now I have a computer and most importantly a jacket ^^
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@webgefrickel @webrocker @btconf @indiewebcamp @tollwerk https://twitter.com/webgefrickel/status/721386451963932673/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721386451963932673)
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@LukasRosenstock RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721386826934657024)
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@jkphl RT @webrocker wot? day one of @indiewebcamp nuremberg already over. time flies when you're having fun :) #nueww (twitter.com/_/status/721387941671669760)
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@jeena RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721388573430300673)
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@webrocker Im Zeichen der Burg… #nueww #indieweb @indiewebcamp #afterglow https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721393057661349891/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721393057661349891)
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@webrocker Achievment unlocked… #nueww @indiewebcamp °burbs https://twitter.com/webrocker/status/721397905433759744/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721397905433759744)
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GWG Everything has slowed down again
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GWG Looking at DDOS protection again in the wiki.
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GWG Webmention recommends asynchronous processing to prevent this, but is there a step above that anyone is using? Such as analyzing the queued webmentions for duplicate requests?
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sknebel I've been building my webmention endpoint today and thought about rate limiting
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GWG sknebel: Rate limiting by what?
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sknebel source domain
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sknebel + general verification
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sknebel there is 2 aspects: protect yourself from to much work, and protect targets from sending them to much traffic
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GWG The question is, how do you avoid missing legitimate traffic?
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sknebel only limit the rate, building a queue?
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sknebel depends what exact scenario we are talking about
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bear nginx allows you to rate limit from source ip based purely on traffic load
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sknebel in the Pingback-flood attack described on http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS the individual node doesn't do much
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bear and then you can rate limit on the app side by # of requests
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sknebel you can set the X-Forwarded-For header to give the target at least a chance to filter, but esp. with HTTPS you've already created load at that point
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@webgefrickel RT @jkphl Having fun @indiewebcamp Nuremberg! _o/ #nueww https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/721345336179101697/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/721418900219555840)
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GWG I'm trying to figure out how to intelligently handle an attempt at DDOS on WordPress from the receiver side, using the conditions I have.
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GWG Can't guarantee it anything but the WordPress installation.
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sknebel ok, so you are the target?
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GWG I am the participant in this scenario.
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GWG A bad actor is sending mentions to me so I and others will go and overwhelm another site by trying to verify them.
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sknebel I can't think of much that isn't already covered in the wiki
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sknebel random delays for verification can at least distribute the load
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sknebel X-Forwarded-For gives the target a chance at filtering before you it some expensive backend operation
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sknebel but if you only get one or very few mentions there isn't much you can do to tell if it is valid traffic or not
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GWG Then there is the other direction
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GWG A lot of mentions coming in at once from the same or different places
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sknebel there you can rate-limit how many you accept and when you do the expensive verification parts
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sknebel If you have to deny some, I'd hope real mentions are retried after a while if you return HTTP 429 or HTTP 503
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sknebel for mentions where target is on your domain the initial check (that's supposed to be done synchonously) hopefully is quick, ones where you have to fetch external ressources are more expensive
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sknebel (great, now I started to think about this and have giant of list of issues my endpoint doesn't properly deal with if you send it malicious requests... )
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GWG I didn't see 503 in the specification
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sknebel the spec doesn't really talk about what to do if you can't deal with a request right now
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GWG sknebel, I am contemplating this area
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sknebel 429 is "too many requests" as in "you (specifically) have sent to many requests to quickly and really should back off"
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sknebel 503 is "Service Unavailable" and generic HTTP message for "there is something wrong temporarily"
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sknebel both are IMHO relatively clear as "you may try again later", which is what you want for legitimate traffic
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GWG But if they aren't in the specification, then you can't trust a legitimate actor would react to them.
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sknebel true
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sknebel I'd assume a webmention endpoint is mostly interesting for denial of service because it fetches documents from other services and parses them, which is expensive
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sknebel so as long as you do that rate-limited asynchronously you can limit your load relatively well
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sknebel although you might have to start dropping requests if your queue fills up
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GWG The WordPress implementation is synchronous.
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sknebel that's a problem
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miklb guessing until there's a hosted solution, I'm going to need to learn a little Ruby and revisit the script I'm using to send mentions
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bear you will have to make the first check then "has this agent sent N requests in the last M minutes" so you can fail fast
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GWG There is a hosted solution.
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bear miklb - webmention.io
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miklb for sending?
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GWG sknebel, it is an issue of how to queue.
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miklb bear afaik, that's for receiving
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bear oh, for sending - yea, webmention.io is for receiving
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sknebel GWG: yeah, should have remembered. "normal webapps" don't have easy background workers
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bear sending is a curl request at it's simplest
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miklb which is what I'm doing currently. But all this talk has me wondering if I should do more. Guess I need to use webmentions.rock to see what exactly is happening
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bear you can read the code I use to process and send webmentions if you want - it's python but should be convertable to ruby easily enough
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miklb Thanks. I'll look into it.
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sknebel GWG: can you limit how many workers/threads/whatever the term is in PHP land are working on webmentions at the same time?
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miklb I have so much on my want to do list already, guess I should prioritize
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bear oh - there is a ruby sending lib listed in the wiki
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bear what is webmention
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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GWG sknebel, no because it is out of scope.
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sknebel GWG: assumed so, but wasn't sure if WordPress had maybe build/standardized something
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sknebel GWG: then I could send you webmentions that are slow to verify and relatively easy tie up all your workers?
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GWG Well, there are mitigations
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GWG And a timeout
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miklb bear I'll compare that to what I'm using now, thanks
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bear anytime
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sknebel what's a common request timeout/worker count? (is there a fixed amount of workers? I have no clue how PHP works nowadays)
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miklb hmm. I guess technically I don't have to use Ruby to send. Just need to incorporate it in my deploy process.
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bear.im edited /Webmention (-144) "update webmention handling" (view diff)
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bear right, you can scan for new and updated webmentions during any part of your deploy
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GWG Workers are outside scope, but the webmention specification uses 5 seconds as a suggestion, Pingbacks on WordPress use 10, and pfefferle used 100.
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bear I use small files that live next to the post to track webmention state for a post
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sknebel bear miklb: just send them *after* the file has been published, or a fast receiver comes looking for a post and finds a 404
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bear I found 5 seconds to be way small - some of the sites I scan daily take 20 - 30 seconds to generate sometimes
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miklb sknebel yes, I discovered that when I initially set it up. I now run the rakefile after the new build has been pushed to my server.
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bear sknebel - yep, my site is static so as soon as I generate and store the html it's available - then my webmention handler is triggered to process
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miklb Before I over complicate it, I should just run a few of the tests on webmentions.rock I might be over thinking it
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bear yep, that has caused me to remove some edge case code that ended up causing bugs
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miklb also re-reading the API docs for Telegraph, I might be able to modify my code to use that for sending
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miklb doesn't really know Ruby :-)
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (+3) "update feature list" (view diff)
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sknebel GWG: I feel like a relatively low time limit is one of the few options you have/sending mentions that take long to verify are the biggest risk
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sknebel s/mentions/
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Loqi sknebel meant to say: GWG: I feel like a relatively low time limit is one of the few options you have/sending  that take long to verify are the biggest risk
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sknebel ... that was the wrong word
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sknebel I'm tired
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sknebel reasoning: If it takes the target long to process a request the attacker gets the most "benefit" for each request they send
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sknebel limiting by source URL/IP gives you at least the benefit that I as an attacker have to find many slow servers to send you to if I want to make the most of it
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sknebel and in the end you only have to make it complicated enough a motivated attacker would rather buy a high-bandwith DDoS instead, which you can't do much about :/
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sknebel and I'm starting to ramble. good night everybody!
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Loqi buenas noches
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KevinMarks has anyone looked at the new fb bot api? could it connect people to the irc briefly?
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voxpelli miklb: I'm going to wait for https://github.com/aaronpk/Telegraph/issues/13 to make my pinging work on top of that
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miklb voxpelli ah, problem solved :-)
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miklb voxpelli how was day 1?
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voxpelli miklb: good, lots of great talks with lots of people
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miklb I hope to be around IRC for tomorrow
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks #indieweb @BarnabyWalters: if you go to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-16 we have great logs of the irc and you can join in by talking to us (twitter.com/_/status/721440489506021382)
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voxpelli miklb: around the times the demos is probably when there will be most activity, so perhaps wake up early for that then :) rest of the time it will mostly be hacking
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks My notes from the opening demos of IndieWebCamp Nürnberg are up at http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampnuremberg2016.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/721441200138547200)
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KevinMarks hm https://developers.facebook.com/docs/messenger-platform/webhook-reference
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KevinMarks http://m.me/indiewebcamp
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GWG I seem to have gotten myself declared the maintainer of the Pings/Trackbacks component of WordPress
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GWG I think I'd better figure out what that means.
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bear KevinMarks - small typo in your greeting: s/comminity/community/
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GWG tantek, can I prevail upon you for feedback on a proposal?
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GWG I am still working on it
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kylewm GWG, maintainer of a (core?) component of WordPress sounds like a big deal
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GWG I was the only person who expressed interest
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kylewm Makes sense
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kylewm Congratulations!
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GWG https://make.wordpress.org/core/2016/04/15/call-for-component-maintainers/
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Loqi Dominik Schilling (ocean90)
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GWG I broke Loqi
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GWG Next step, find out how I do it
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kylewm Heheh, "I'd tentatively give it a shot" "sold!"
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kylewm Reminds me of that commitstrip about the difference between perception and reality of open source development
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kylewm http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2014/05/07/the-truth-behind-open-source-apps/
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@webrocker cold days, hot nights. #nurembergrocks #nueww @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/721484732886872065)