#indieweb

2016-04-29

#
bear
code removal means bug surface area reduction - so it's always a good ting
# npdoty joined the channel
#
GWG
I'm really trying to iterate on it.
#
@marcthiele
Hey @glennjones – this time no #IndieWebCamp for you in Düsseldorf? ;) https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp (twtr.io/1C25bpM_16C)
#
marcthiele
Good morning from Germany.
#
marcthiele
Question: My rel=me link was working for Google in the past. Now it is not anymore, without me changing anything. Gives me "No rel=me link was found on https://plus.google.com/+marcthiele to http://marcthiele.com/" When logging in to the wiki.
#
marcthiele
What could possibly the problem. I have a link to my site in my google profile.
# loic_m joined the channel
#
bear
is this for indieauth or ???
#
bear
a quick test to see if rel=me is setup ok is to try it in https://indiewebify.me
#
bear
Level 1 step 2 has a test for web sign-in
#
marcthiele
Sorry, bear, it is.
#
marcthiele
I'll give it a try again there. Just wondering as it used to work.
#
marcthiele
Also, this morning over here, I get this error, no matter if I try to authenticate with GitHub or Twitter: "An unhandled lowlevel error occured. The application logs may have details."
#
bear
which site are you trying to log into?
#
marcthiele
The IndieWebCamp Wiki.
#
bear
ah
#
marcthiele
BTW: https://indiewebify.me/ says that google "works perfectly". Hmm strange ;)
#
bear
I would leave a !tell message for aaronpk as he (I think) is the only one who can see the wiki logs
#
marcthiele
I will. Cheers.
# nitot joined the channel
#
bear
he is on US West Coast time right now
#
KartikPrabhu
github seems to work for me at the moment
# friedcell joined the channel
#
walterebert.com
edited /2016/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+312) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
# alexhart_ joined the channel
# Pierre-O joined the channel
# alexhartley joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
#
voxpelli
!tell marcthiele My guess is that the IndieAuth.com issue is caused by a ü-char. I opened an issue for it at the repo
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# shiflett joined the channel
# Garbee joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
# friedcell joined the channel
# dogada joined the channel
# hs0ucy joined the channel
# mlncn joined the channel
# hs0ucy joined the channel
# alexhartley joined the channel
# loic_m joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
#
aaronpk
good morning
#
aaronpk
odd about the login
#
aaronpk
yeah, "URI::InvalidURIError - URI must be ascii only"
#
aaronpk
looks like an indieauth.com issue
#
aaronpk
i wonder why the URL isn't getting encoded properly
# miklb joined the channel
# kerozene joined the channel
#
aaronpk
!tell marcthiele voxpelli is right, the problem with the login is when it's trying to take you back to the Düsseldorf page. if you click on the home page and log in from there it will work fine.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk
googleplus--
#
Loqi
googleplus has -1 karma
#
aaronpk
!tell marcthiele it looks like for whatever reason, Google is not actually showing the link to your website in the HTML response that indieauth.com gets. They have a nasty habit of changing the HTML they send back depending on who's fetching it. I would start using Github instead of Google.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
Loqi
[indienews] New post: "New @W3C Webmention draft! Minor clarifications + linked to the http://webmention.rocks test suite. https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#changes-from-20-april-2016-wd-to-29-april-2016 #RoadToCR" https://aaronparecki.com/2016/04/29/5/webmention
# shiflett joined the channel
#
@aaronpk
New @W3C Webmention draft! Minor clarifications + linked to the https://webmention.rocks/ test suite. https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#changes-from-20-april-2016-wd-to-29-april-2016 #RoadToCR (twtr.io/1C2nLmQdNrn)
# j12t joined the channel
# alexhartley joined the channel
# tantek joined the channel
#
@HongPong
i am trying to get more into indieweb things this summer. gonna try to see if any ways to amplify this kinda thing https://twitter.com/anton612/status/726063138903199745 (twtr.io/1C2nhnZS0fY)
# nitot joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
#
@indiewebcamp
RT @aaronpk New @W3C Webmention draft! Minor clarifications + linked to the https://webmention.rocks/ test suite. https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#changes-from-20-april-2016-wd-to-29-april-2016 #RoadToCR (twtr.io/1C2sZWpRdmR)
# j12t joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# danlyke joined the channel
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# snarfed1 joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
# j12t joined the channel
#
bret
does anyone have experience hosting their personal website on google app engine?
#
bret
https://indiewebcamp.com/App_Engine
#
bret
all i see are services hosted there
# KevinMarks joined the channel
#
snarfed
bret: i know plenty of people who have/do. and i can obviously answer general app engine q's
#
bret
looking for a place to host either a node or go website on a webserver with hands off ops
#
bret
heroku was kinda the place for a while, till they made their free teir sleep
#
snarfed
app engine sounds appropriate
#
snarfed
maybe also aws lambda. its free tier is 1y, which is a while, but gae's is permanent
#
bret
snarfed: can you set a limit on how much you are willing to pay if you go over?
#
snarfed
bret: definitely!
#
snarfed
$0 by default. iirc you don't need a credit card to sign up
#
bret
rad
#
bret
it would be cool to not have to manage another server
# [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
you need a credit card for some things (callbacks etc)
#
snarfed.org
edited /App_Engine (+225) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ granary, *-atom" (view diff)
#
bret
i have a cc, i just dont want to wake up to a $1000 bill one morning
#
bret
if something goes wrong
#
snarfed
definitely
#
snarfed
servers--
#
Loqi
servers has -6 karma
#
[kevinmarks]
go is on classic appengine; node on the new thing that is more of a docker image hosting thing
#
bret
i like servers, but my dedication to keeping them running wavers, and I dont want my site to go down because of that
#
[kevinmarks]
hm, noterlive is on heroku
#
bret
i just read gopl.io really digging go now. reminds me of my ES5 only node pals
#
bret
if you have more than one app on gae, does it all count against the same free teir pool? or does each one get its own set of free resources?
#
snarfed
bret: each app gets its own free tier
#
bret
cool
#
snarfed
go++ . great language. wrote a big system in it as my last project at google
#
Loqi
go has 4 karma
#
[kevinmarks]
I keep feeling I should try go, but python is more comfortable somehow
#
[kevinmarks]
is Go's package management easier?
#
snarfed
[kevinmarks]: it's good
#
snarfed
[kevinmarks]: and there's only one of it :P
#
bret
go feels more like node to me than python, but node people are more enamoured with rust, and python people seem to move to go so ???
#
bret
people compare go to java a lot too, which confuses me
#
bret
i dont see the crossover
#
[kevinmarks]
google writes a lot of stuff in Java, so that may be the target there
# wolftune joined the channel
# shiflett joined the channel
#
bret
its true, I know nothing about java
#
bret
oh but also, a lot of the early node devs were ex-java people. like almost the entire wallmart labs team
#
KevinMarks
hm, spiderpig didn't work on kevinmarks.com
#
KevinMarks
or rather it archived the homepage and didn't follow links
#
KevinMarks
trying it on epeus.blogspot.com it is flattening all the tag pages under /search/label/ which I suppose makes sense
# [emmak] joined the channel
#
[emmak]
what is spiderpig?
#
Loqi
Spiderpig is a web crawler for archiving a website as static HTML files https://indiewebcamp.com/Spiderpig
#
[emmak]
oh cool
#
KevinMarks
another of aaron's really helpful tools
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: try www.kevinmarks.com
#
KevinMarks
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 123 karma
#
KevinMarks
makes sense
#
KevinMarks
I'll wait until epeus completes firts
#
aaronpk
iirc it doesn't archive redirects across domain names
#
aaronpk
hmm http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/04/googles-onhub-router-finally-gets-some-smart-home-features-via-ifttt/
#
aaronpk
how long until IFTTT is bought by google?
#
Loqi
I don't know
#
KevinMarks
does it only archive same-domain images?
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: i think so yeah
#
KevinMarks
I'll see how that works with blogger
#
aaronpk
yeah because it assumes you're going to host the resulting folder at the same domain that was archived, so there's no way to reference other-domain images
#
KevinMarks
I think they have an image hosting domain
# gRegorLove joined the channel
#
aaronpk
it's made specifically for turning a rails/node/php site into HTML and continuing to serve that site from the same domain
#
KevinMarks
also, I hotlinked a lot of stuff on epeus, which is my own fault
#
aaronpk
so externally referenced images will still be externally referenced
#
KevinMarks
gotcha
#
KevinMarks
omg it's pulling all the comments feeds
#
aaronpk
like "i have this old wordpress site that i want to keep online don't want to keep maintaining wordpress"
#
aaronpk
and
#
aaronpk
s/wordpress/rails
#
KevinMarks
in this case blogger
#
KevinMarks
2198 files for my blogger blog
#
KevinMarks
oh wow, and copies of all the posts in the tag and month folders
#
KevinMarks
which makes a kind of sense
#
KevinMarks
the comment feeds are a bit odd
# snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
ah, and it doesn't make URLs relative, which I suppose is fair enough
#
KevinMarks
given the use case
#
KevinMarks
or rtaehr ti does or images, but not for urls in saved pages
#
aaronpk
yeah it does very little munging of the HTML since it's creating a snapshot that will be dropped into place
#
KevinMarks
right, but if I wanted to do a 'how my site looked up until I redesigned' archive I'd have to mung all the urls
#
KevinMarks
hm, looks like it didn't liek fonts embedded via CSS
#
tantek
@font-face?
#
@tomwiththeweath
on the plane home trying out http://miklb.github.io/jekyll-indieweb/ software for running my blog (twtr.io/1C37rYWHb02)
#
KevinMarks
this file http://www.kevinmarks.com/cmserif/cmun-serif.css
#
aaronpk
hm, i thought i was following url() calls in css files
#
aaronpk
that might be a bug then
#
KevinMarks
Processing: http://www.kevinmarks.com/cmserif/%27cmunrm.ttf%27 404 Not Found
#
KevinMarks
looks like the single quotes faield
#
aaronpk
oh
#
aaronpk
easy fix then
#
aaronpk
wow i must not have had any quoted url values in the sites i was archiving
#
notenoughneon.com
edited /Amazon_S3 (+244) "/* Considerations */" (view diff)
#
@voxpelli
@tomwiththeweath @miklb All you need to do is to register on my site + set "webmentions" to "yes" in your config: http://miklb.github.io/jekyll-indieweb/2016/04/10/welcome-to-jekyll-indieweb.html :) (twtr.io/1C39GU8XWR4)
#
@tomwiththeweath
@voxpelli @miklb looking forward to testing webmention. (twtr.io/1C38zcyEBm8)
#
@miklb
@voxpelli @tomwiththeweath Indeed! Don’t hesitate to ping me with any questions. Still some rough edges on styling on webmentions. (twtr.io/1C38btRp6VM)
#
@tomwiththeweath
RT @voxpelli @tomwiththeweath Nice! @miklb is testing both my Webmention and alpha Micropub endpoint with that one, so lots to try out eventually :) (twtr.io/1C38_7m1BYG)
#
@voxpelli
@tomwiththeweath Nice! @miklb is testing both my Webmention and alpha Micropub endpoint with that one, so lots to try out eventually :) (twtr.io/1C38TcsRixs)
#
@releaseteam
RT @tomwiththeweath on the plane home trying out http://miklb.github.io/jekyll-indieweb/ software for running my blog (twtr.io/1C3840ynpu8)
#
miklb
holy notifications Batman
#
tantek
Every tweet you make, Loqi is watching you
#
kylewm
bret: you thinking of switching off Jekyll?
#
bret
oh god yes
#
kylewm
Neat
#
notenoughneon.com
edited /Amazon_S3 (+176) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add myself to examples" (view diff)
#
kylewm
We've missed you around these parts!
#
voxpelli
miklb: the new starter theme for Jekyll really feels to lower the threshold for people to get started, great!
#
bret
i'm sorry :(
#
voxpelli
bret: sorry to hear you're switching away from jekyll :(
#
kylewm
Nothing to apologize for!
#
bret
I'm trying to figure out a better balance now that I'm working full time
#
kylewm
I'm going back to working full time soon. Will be an adjustment
#
kylewm
s/full time//
#
Loqi
kylewm meant to say: I'm going back to working  soon. Will be an adjustment
#
kylewm
:)
# shiflett joined the channel
#
miklb
voxpelli yes, I'm happy to see someone give it a shot.
#
bret
i also got involved with trying to keep PDXnode meet up alive in town which totally drained me
#
bret
but I found some more organizers for that so I'm hoping to step back from that
#
bret
voxpelli: I don't know a whole lot of ruby, so its not really the best choice for me anymore
#
tantek
bret - I'm curious, what's the motivation for the PDXnode meetup and keeping it "alive"?
#
voxpelli
bret: I can understand that, I know no Ruby at all :/ that's somewhat the reason why I'm so stubbornly extending Jekyll through microservices
#
voxpelli
ran a nodejs-meetup in Malmö, but shut it down almost a year ago due to changing focus in local community and organizer group
#
bret
its though organizing, specially because it rapidly turns into something of a chore pretty quickly for a lot of people
#
bret
having people in the community who gravitate to that kind of work is is a blessing heh
#
notenoughneon.com
edited /Neonblog (-4) "update article" (view diff)
# snarfed joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
Loqi
Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html I'll generate it again in an hour and it will be sent out at 2pm.
#
notenoughneon.com
edited /User:Notenoughneon.com (+6) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
#
tantek
hmm no photos
#
gRegorLove
Fixing the u-url
#
gRegorLove
It's pointing to eventbrite
#
tantek
weird
#
tantek
on /Events?
#
gRegorLove
Yeah. Because we only added the wiki event page for it day-of. I didn't change the mf2 at that time
#
tantek
now the question is does the wiki event page itself have h-event or does it even need it?
#
tantek
KevinMarks: are there any better photo(s) from your IIW session(s)?
#
gRegorLove
No, it just needs u-photo
#
tantek
!tell shaners little over an hour to post a photo from HWC LA/SM before the newsletter gets sent out
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek
gRegorLove: well it has u-photo
#
miklb
voxpelli btw, how did you see he was using that theme? You follow him on Twitter already?
#
KevinMarks
there's one of me demoing
#
tantek
but it's on the default h-entry for the page
#
gRegorLove
Yes
#
tantek
KevinMarks: that's on the wiki already I think
#
tantek
KevinMarks: did you take any photos of the participants/attendees
#
tantek
?
#
KevinMarks
https://twitter.com/lewisha/status/725430997211176960
#
@lewisha
Not to meta @benwerd @erinjo. We're missing you but @kevinmarks holding down the @withknown fort #iiw [photo] (twtr.io/1Bz1it2Ld2f)
#
voxpelli
miklb: loqi ;) but was following him as well so I recognized him then he showed up in the logs
#
Loqi
woot!
#
gRegorLove
I can't seem to figure out how to add a u-url to a [[wiki link]]
#
KevinMarks
not at the day before one
#
KevinMarks
I was showing text posts
#
miklb
heh. I hadn't looked at the scroll back.
#
tantek
hey that's a good one too
#
gRegorLove
Got it
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Events (+49) "/* April */ add u-url to wiki event page" (view diff)
#
miklb
needs to figure out how to display OwnYourGram posts in Jekyll
#
snarfed
first 24h of bridgy FB reactions, found >1k and sent webmentions for >200
#
snarfed
woo
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2016-04-26-iiw (+321) "/* Photos */ add second photo" (view diff)
#
voxpelli
miklb: check line 10 to 24 here: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/blob/master/_includes/post-content.html#L10 :)
#
tantek
that's amazing snarfed
#
tantek
KevinMarks: could you add links to your IIW notes to this section? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-26-iiw#Session_Notes
#
miklb
voxpelli++
#
gRegorLove
Wat: http://indiewebcamp.com/User%3AOutput.jsbin.com_qicowafebe
#
snarfed
ben_thatmustbeme may be the only recipient who renders them as reactions so far, ie not as replies
#
Loqi
voxpelli has 73 karma
#
tantek
aaronpk: should probably blacklist jsbin.com from the indieauth logins for indiewebcamp
# alexhartley joined the channel
#
kevinmarks.com
edited /events/2016-04-26-iiw (+79) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
hah yeah
#
aaronpk
snarfed: whoa cool! I want to try!
#
snarfed
aaronpk: go for it! you already have a few on your site
#
aaronpk
what does the html/mf2 look like for a Facebook reaction?
#
snarfed
it's a reacji
#
snarfed
(that name tho :( )
#
snarfed
aaronpk: https://brid.gy/facebook/11500459#responses
#
kylewm
?qicowafebe
#
miklb
voxpelli I forget about the page.variables and being able to use them as conditionals
#
kylewm
gRegorLove: that was dym_cx testing anonymous wiki login
#
gRegorLove
I thought it might be them :)
#
aaronpk
snarfed++
#
Loqi
snarfed has 221 karma
#
aaronpk
docs++
#
Loqi
docs has 1 karma
#
snarfed
wants to rename /reacji => /reactions
#
ben_thatmustbeme
reactions sounds like just a general response though
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme: kylewm left you a message 14 hours, 20 minutes ago: hey there's a stray </div> on line 73 of your homepage (should be a </a>) that means I'm not getting your posts in woodwind :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-28/line/1461907673451
#
gRegorLove
The missing definitions should show up when /this-week is regenerated. I added missing periods.
#
aaronpk
omg hahaha I have a bunch of emoji comments now
#
snarfed
ben_thatmustbeme: https://indiewebcamp.com/interactions#Alternatives
#
snarfed
slowly backs away
#
aaronpk
"reactions" is a general term but I like "emoji responses" instead of reacji
#
snarfed
the industry has pretty clearly settled on "reactions" meaning emoji responses
#
snarfed
and not anything else
#
snarfed
fwiw
#
ben_thatmustbeme
whichever, i've already said reacji, and poopji plenty enough
#
gregorlove.com
edited /events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (+8) "u-photo, so /this-week can pick it up" (view diff)
#
kylewm
Slack calls them emoji reactions from what i can tell
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what does FB call them?
#
kylewm
GitHub "reactions"
#
kylewm
FB also reactions
#
kylewm
http://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-redesigned-like-button/
#
Loqi
Skip Article Header. Skip to: Start of Article.
#
tantek
in both cases, they are not strictly emoji, merely an intersection of a few
#
kylewm
true!
#
aaronpk
I guess slack is the only one that actually used emoji
#
tantek
and since FB decided to generalize their existing "like" into "reactions", our pre-existing definition stands
#
aaronpk
although you can upload your own images and then they aren't technically emoji anymore right?
#
kylewm
what does Buzzfeed call the things like "WTF" "LOL" "Gross"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: fixed that bad closing tag
#
tantek
what is a reaction?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thanks
#
Loqi
https://indiewebcamp.com/reaction
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm++
#
Loqi
kylewm has 326 karma
#
kylewm
Buzzfeed calls those Reactions also, they are definitely not emoji
#
kylewm
thanks ben_thatmustbeme!
#
tantek
or I thought it did. hmm needs a more explicit reaction
#
ben_thatmustbeme
actually, slack uses emoji and images
#
tantek
s/reaction/definition
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: or I thought it did. hmm needs a more explicit definition
#
ben_thatmustbeme
as you can create you own custom ones with icons
#
ben_thatmustbeme
realistically they are all images, not emoji characters
#
tantek
ok - time for y'all bringing up these real world examples / usages of "reactions" to document them on their specific silo pages
#
tantek
at least
#
gRegorLove
Interesting dive into emoji here: https://eev.ee/blog/2016/04/12/apple-did-not-invent-emoji/
#
tantek
what is Buzzfeed?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Buzzfeed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10K5
#
tantek
gRegorLove: I believe that's cited on /emoji already, if not, please add it
#
gRegorLove
Aha, so it is
#
tantek
I'll cogitate on https://indiewebcamp.com/responses#Post_Types a bit to see if I can come up with a suitable definition for "reaction" that incorporates our past usage and recent silo implementations
#
kylewm
tantek: is it maybe more valuable to documetn them on /reactions#Silo_Examples?
#
tantek
kylewm: no because that's not what that page means currently
#
tantek
that page needs a more intensive rethink / rewrite, while figuring out what to do with the existing content on it
#
tantek
there's interesting / useful history there that's worth keeping
#
gRegorLove
Buzzfeed is a meme, news, and entertainment site.
#
loqi.me
created /Buzzfeed (+76) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-29/line/1461959655538 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Buzzfeed (+22) "link" (view diff)
#
loqi.me
created /poopji (+68) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme and dfn added by ben_thatmustbeme" (view diff)
#
voxpelli
interesting regarding the custom emojis at Slack, so reacji is more of an "image"-response than an emoji response I guess? then it goes hand in hand with the sticker/animated-gif replies that Facebook Messenger uses as well
#
kylewm
tantek: /reactions is short but pretty much describes what we're talking about imho? Like, Dislike, LGTM, LOL, etc.
#
snarfed.org
edited /reacji (+70) "granary" (view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i agree that these are really far more than just emoji, people can gather any replies they want really
#
tantek
kylewm: no it is broader that what were talking about right now
#
tantek
that is /reactions has a definition that is broader than what's being discussed here in the channel
#
@jadeinteractive
Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for #WordPress http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/trackbacks-pingbacks-webmentions/ https://twitter.com/jadeinteractive/status/726135304386666496/photo/1 (twtr.io/1C3DKcrodUG)
#
voxpelli
kylewm: /reactions is a subset of /responses
#
tantek
reposts, bookmarks, quotation, invitation are broader
#
tantek
voxpelli: that's true but insufficient
#
tantek
also summarized here: https://indiewebcamp.com/responses#Post_Types
#
tantek
that list of "reactions" goes beyond what the silos appear to be settling on
#
tantek
hence there is a difference of definition currently
#
kylewm
tantek: ahh misunderstanding is because i was looking at /reaction rather than /reactions :P
#
tantek
kylewm - yeah hence some more major wiki page rewriting is needed
#
snarfed
tantek: you're right that reactions has a page and definition (likes + reposts + rsvps + ...), but in practice i rarely hear people use it as that, here or elsewhere
#
voxpelli
have we documented sticker/image responses? would be interesting to look into where the line between sticker/image responses and reacji are. When does it become a reacji instead?
#
tantek
snarfed, agreed, and that's my point, need to think about how to update ours based on recent silo uses
#
snarfed
cool, sgtm
#
tantek
which also means a need to rethink how "responses" as a whole are segmented
#
tantek
I'm thinking of introducing a third subset of responses, follow-ups
#
tantek
follow-ups would include things like repost, bookmark, quotation, invitation
#
tantek
and I'm thinking of moving RSVP to being a form of reply
#
tantek
that would leave reactions as like / favorite, reacji
#
snarfed
do we really need all these umbrella and semi-umbrella terms?
#
KartikPrabhu
same question from me ^
#
aaronpk
why do we need to call it follow-up?
#
tantek
snarfed, we do, because we've had confusion trying to talk about either the general or the specific concepts in the past
#
aaronpk
that sounds confusing
#
tantek
and people used different terms to mean the same thing, and the same term to mean different things
#
snarfed
i'm not convinced. we have responses (or maybe interactions) as the catch-all, and then we have the individual types
#
tantek
and we got nowhere in lots of discussions
#
snarfed
i'm not sure we need any more than that
#
voxpelli
like / favorite is sometimes kind of a bookmark as well, at least on eg. Twitter
#
aaronpk
hierarchy--
#
Loqi
hierarchy has -2 karma
#
tantek
snarfed, you just made the point that there are "reactions"
#
snarfed
yes. i think they're the same thing as reacji, and that they're effectively a single type, like repost, reply, etc
#
tantek
voxpelli: I agree it used to be that way on twitter with the star but now that they've switched to heart - I bet it's no longer used like that
#
snarfed
wonders how he got himself into a terminology debate
#
gRegorLove
Heh. My previous comments here https://indiewebcamp.com/responses#Responses are now invalid due to wiki redirects being put back in place.
#
tantek
reacji are strictly speaking a resonse with a single emoji
#
tantek
not the same as a like as it were
#
voxpelli
tantek: I certainly do to a degree, although more restrictively to not imply endorsement wrongfully
#
kylewm
-1 on conflating like and bookmark
#
kylewm
based on the Like plugin for Known :P
#
tantek
kylewm: agreed - their use is quite different, especially when labeled as such in UIs
#
tantek
not going to let 1% edge case uses dictate definitions
#
voxpelli
kylewm: favorite / "starring" and bookmark certainly isn't the same thing, but they do have some crossover and can on certain occupations certainly mean the same thing
#
kylewm
yes definitely
#
kylewm
if you're only tool is a fav button, then people will use it for bookmarking
#
KevinMarks
see http://www.kevinmarks.com/notinourstars.html for twitter style reacji
#
Loqi
Not in our Stars 2015-11-08
#
kylewm
your*
#
sknebel
Github stars are another example
#
KevinMarks
gillmor gang time
#
tantek
kylewm, voxpelli I'm less and less convinced of the start -> bookmark assertion. they're not searchable like bookmarks (typically) are, they often disappear into an uniterable list, etc.
#
gRegorLove
I like "responses" as the overall term, still.
#
tantek
s/start/star
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: kylewm, voxpelli I'm less and less convinced of the star -> bookmark assertion. they're not searchable like bookmarks (typically) are, they often disappear into an uniterable list, etc.
#
voxpelli
tantek: on GitHub they are very much searchable :)
#
tantek
gRegorLove: yes, responses are what we settled on (instead of interactions) after a lot of debate
#
voxpelli
https://github.com/stars
#
tantek
voxpelli: nowhere else
#
tantek
github does not call them favorites either
#
gRegorLove
"or interactions" according to /responses
#
tantek
what are stars?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "stars" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10K7
#
tantek
what is a star?
#
Loqi
A favorite is a common webaction on many silos (like Flickr, Twitter), typically visually indicated with a star symbol that fills in with a color when activated (pink, orange). A favorite is similar to but somewhat different from a like https://indiewebcamp.com/star
#
tantek
do github stars mean favorites?
#
voxpelli
it's kind of undefined what they mean
#
KevinMarks
they mean 'notify me about this'
#
tantek
what does their alt text say?
#
voxpelli
but yeah, favorite is probably the closest thing
#
tantek
or any other UI aspects related to them?
#
voxpelli
"Star"
#
kylewm
KevinMarks: that's "watch" right? i don't think starring something changes whether i get notifications about it
#
tantek
gRegorLove: yes, that "or interactions" I added to help deliberately transition uses of "interactions" to "responses"
#
gRegorLove
GH star serves as a bookmark of projects you're interested in / ranking popularity of the project
#
gRegorLove
imo
#
tantek
voxpelli: feel free to add Github's use of star (and note about searching) to https://indiewebcamp.com/star#Silo_Examples
#
gRegorLove
GH watch gives you notifications
#
tantek
gRegorLove: same same ^^^
#
KevinMarks
ah, right
#
voxpelli
gRegorLove: but also as a like and almost as a share :P it's the only way to share a project on GitHub
#
gRegorLove
Share how?
#
sknebel
If you follow somebody on github you see when they star something
#
gRegorLove
I guess there's the stream of "[user] starred [repo]"
#
voxpelli
gRegorLove: if you follow me and I star a project then you will see that I starred it and the creator of the project will see that I starred it
#
tantek
snarfed, aaronpk we have to give these things (sets) explicit names so that when we're talking about a specific set of them we know which set we are talking about - because there are different sets in terms of what shows up in UI, how they interact etc.
#
gRegorLove
Gotcha
#
tantek
plus in many cases they already have different names and just need refined definitions
#
miklb
intended use not always indicative of practical use
#
gRegorLove
What is watch?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "watch" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10K8
#
tantek
miklb, unless it's a non-trivial practical use, such odd uses are more academic than worthy of practical discussion
#
voxpelli
gRegorLove: /follow ?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
fixed my reacji UI a little https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2016/4/29/1/
#
Loqi
[Ben Roberts] Thanks to an update of brid.gy, now reactions on FB get backfed to my site as well. YAY!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bit nicer to actually see the name
#
tantek
watch is /follow
#
loqi.me
created /watch (+19) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-29/line/1461960862911 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
snarfed
tantek: eh. i understand the argument, i'm just not convinced those (sub)sets are so widely used, or matter much.
#
tantek
snarfed, which is why we document their usage
#
snarfed
if we use certain techniques (eg collapsing) for some types and not others, maybe we just refer to the techniques themselves for now
#
snarfed
sure
#
tantek
like reacji is a term, and reaction is a term, outside of indiewebcamp
#
snarfed
right, and i'd propose we merge them :P
#
tantek
so it's futile to say you're not convinced, doesn't matter, they're used wide enough outside that they exist
#
voxpelli
snarfed: -1 on merging reacji and reaction
#
tantek
but they're used differently so it makes sense to document as such
#
gregorlove.com
edited /GitHub (+164) "started Features section" (view diff)
#
snarfed
again, i don't think "reactions" is a set of types, i think it's a single type, and basically the same thing as reacji
#
aaronpk
alright who's making a diagram showing the hierarchy of terms
#
snarfed
some silos only offer a subset of emojis as reactions, but otherwise i think they're equivalent
#
voxpelli
snarfed: tantek: to me reacji is more a UI concept similar to facepile than a reactions concept in itself
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kylewm.com * uploaded "[[File:buzzfeed-reactions-2016-04-29.png]]"
#
tantek
snarfed, it's not, since the "fixed subset" vs. "any emoji" is a very different experience
#
kylewm.com
edited /Buzzfeed (+388) (view diff)
#
snarfed
i disagree, but understood
#
gRegorLove
aaronpk: not it
#
tantek
since fixed subset is something you choose from a limited menu, vs. you can *type* any emoji for a reacji
#
tantek
very different UX and sense of what it means
#
kylewm.com
edited /Buzzfeed (+54) "/* Reactions */" (view diff)
#
snarfed
understood
#
snarfed
we can agree to disagree :P'
#
voxpelli
the definition of reacji is basically "a reaction with content conisting purely of an emoji (or maybe image)"
#
tantek
it was lazy to call what Path and now Facebook do "reacji"
#
tantek
and imprecise
#
voxpelli
and then one makes a reacji-pile of it in the UI just like one makes a facepile of other raction types
#
tantek
and proves my point that we needed separate terms anyway, since FB is calling them reactions
#
snarfed
i'm out of terminology energy, i'll follow you all wherever
#
tantek
voxpelli: not true re: definition of reacji, it does strictly imply emoji
#
tantek
where does the "maybe image" come from?
#
aaronpk
on slack you can upload custom images
#
aaronpk
and use them along with the other emoji
#
voxpelli
tantek: Slack's reactjis supports arbitrary images
#
tantek
and they still call them reacji?
# smcgregor joined the channel
#
snarfed
reactions
#
voxpelli
they make no difference between standard and custom emojis and even provide 10-20 custom emojis by default
#
snarfed
i think we're the only community that calls anything "reacji" on an ongoing basis :P
#
gRegorLove
Slack is always showing an image, regardless, not an emoji character.
#
tantek
like you could upload your own facial expressions and use them as reacji?!?
#
aaronpk
absolutely
#
voxpelli
custom emojis are pretty core to the Slack culture
#
tantek
voxpelli: where is this "core" documented?
#
snarfed
we use them heavily at work
#
tantek
so far I've only seen emoji reacji on Slack
#
aaronpk
i'm sure there are plenty of Medium posts about it :P
#
tantek
I'm just disagreeing with assertion of "core" if someone hasn't documented it yet
#
gRegorLove
Slack emoji: <span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(https://a.slack-edge.com/e4cee/img/emoji_2016_02_06/sheet_apple_64_indexed_256colors.png);background-position:7.5% 12.5%;background-size:4100%" title="white_check_mark">:white_check_mark:</span>
#
aaronpk
if my slack channels were public i could provide lots of screenshots
#
tantek
sounds more like "advanced/experimental"
#
aaronpk
no, definitely core to slack culture
#
tantek
and no one has written about it?
#
kylewm
the Slack page does have a screenshot of someone calling them reacji
#
tantek
even with all the hype around Slack?
#
tantek
I find that unlikely
#
aaronpk
i'm sure someone has written about it
#
snarfed
kylewm: maybe so! once. but i doubt ongoing :P
#
tantek
snarfed, you think Slack themselves changed their terminology?
#
tantek
I'm going to ask some friends that work there
#
snarfed
tantek: no, i doubt they ever officially called their feature reacji
#
kylewm
yeah "reacji" is an unfortunate mix of silly sounding and kinda technical/plumbing centric :)
#
snarfed
i expect a few people called it that a few times internally, maybe externally, unofficially
# [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
:tek:: :eyeroll:
#
gRegorLove
Is there a question about custom Slack emoji not being documented? https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/206870177-Creating-custom-emoji
#
aaronpk
https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/206870317-Emoji-reactions
#
tantek
snarfed, no, Slack employees referred to the feature as "reacji" in in-person conversations
#
snarfed
yes, i think that's what i said
#
tantek
I mean in practice they used the term reacji
#
tantek
that's official enough :P
#
snarfed
yes, i think that's what i said
#
tantek
not sure what you mean by "officially" then or why that's useful?
#
snarfed
no, official product terms are different than saying things in personal conversation
#
kylewm
I'd argue the latter is more meaningful :)
#
tantek
well if someone can get ahold of their product pitch they make to why companies should pay for slack, including list of features, perhaps that will answer it :P
#
gRegorLove
The hover prompt in Slack says "Add reaction"
#
kylewm
Adobe calls photoshoping an image "editing an image in Adobe Photoshop(TM)"
#
snarfed
kylewm: true! and i doubt any other community is consistently still using the term "reacji" today
#
gRegorLove
Can screenshot if desired
#
tantek
gRegorLove: definitely!
#
gRegorLove
What is Slack?
#
voxpelli
they have at least documented their latest concept, stolen from Facebook, the "Jumbomoji": https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202931348-Emoji-and-emoticons
#
Loqi
Slack is a closed-source team communication tool similar to IRC but with expanding support for various types of content such as emoji polls, inline images, and attachments https://indiewebcamp.com/Slack
#
tantek
gRegorLove: we have a bigger problem
#
voxpelli
(A Jumbomoji is a post consisting of a single emoji that is then presented slightly larger)
#
tantek
still no photos on https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html
#
tantek
and Loqi claimed they'd be regenerated at 13:00 PDT
#
tantek
jumbomoji?!?
#
tantek
ok fine
#
kylewm
also I noticed a big disadvantage to using emoji for reactions -- 😬 conveys wildly different emotions on different platforms
#
tantek
what is a jumbomoji?
#
gRegorLove
https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/202931348-Emoji-and-emoticons##Jumbomoji
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "jumbomoji" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10K9
#
sknebel
twitch chat also has custom reaction/smileys whatever. Many channels have them as a subscriber-bonus
#
tantek
kylewm: perhaps emoji could be the alt-text of an reacji image
#
tantek
s/an /a
#
voxpelli
kylewm: probably a reason for an indieweb reacji to support custom emojis through images in additions to standard emojis, only way to know the correct reaction will be carried through
#
tantek
but seriously how do we fix the lack of photos on https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html ? aaronpk ?
#
tantek
got 30 min
#
voxpelli
hard thing about custom emojis in indieweb: how to know many people are posting the same emoji unless one starts tagging that emoji through alt-text or similar
#
kylewm
jumbomoji is dumb, jumboji sounds way better
#
loqi.me
created /jumbomoji (+71) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-29/line/1461961632375 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
aaronpk
hahaha
#
tantek
aaronpk: Loqi does not appear to have regenerated https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html
#
Loqi
grins profusely
#
tantek
as he promised :(
#
tantek
gives Loqi a stern look
#
kylewm
whoops
#
Loqi
steps on the stern look
#
tantek
great kylewm now that defn is going into "this week" unless you fix it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
lol
#
kylewm
hahaha
#
gRegorLove
tantek: I didn't see a regenerated notice. The updated dfns aren't on there either. Sure it regenerated?
#
Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html
#
tantek
what the
#
tantek
and it got it wrong for HWC LA/SM
#
tantek
false positive
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2016-04-27-homebrew-website-club (-8) "no the header image is not a u-photo" (view diff)
#
voxpelli
snarfed: got an example of a Bridgy reacji?
#
gRegorLove
Sorry, thought the header photo was what you wanted in the newsletter
#
aaronpk
that wasn't me, that was all Loqi
#
tantek
no - photos of an event should only be photos actually taken at that event!
#
kylewm.com
edited /jumbomoji (+155) "actual definition, as best as I understand it" (view diff)
#
www.svenknebel.de
edited /emoji (+108) "note: image emoji -> set alt-text" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove
I dunno what photos are taken where :)
#
tantek
gRegorLove: but you do recognize a header image?
#
snarfed
voxpelli: sure, https://snarfed.org/2016-04-17_17340#comment-2598469
#
Loqi
[Ryan Barrett] https://snarfed.org/w/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/foot_eating-768x1024.jpg
#
tantek.com
edited /jumbomoji (+3) "-', linky" (view diff)
#
voxpelli
kylewm: I'll improve that definition
#
tantek
what is jumbomoji
#
Loqi
jumbomoji refers to very large emojis that appear on Slack messages; the term appears to be specific to Slack https://indiewebcamp.com/jumbomoji
#
tantek
FB messages with only emoji tend to be supersized as well
#
snarfed
voxpelli: also, collapsed: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2016/4/28/1/
#
Loqi
[Ben Roberts] Been a crazy week, that's for sure. Alyssa has had it quite rough.
#
KevinMarks
is bridgy doing anything special for twitter reacji?
#
snarfed
KevinMarks: you mean single emoji character tweets? no
#
tantek
KevinMarks: Twitter doesn't support reacji yet
#
snarfed
"reacjweets" (shudder)
#
snarfed
hates the reacj* words
#
KevinMarks
emojitracker.com begs to differ
#
tantek
snarfed: what about jumanji?
#
snarfed
it's fine, doesn't match the reacj* glob :P
#
KevinMarks
billions of emoji there
#
tantek
KevinMarks: emojitracker is not restricted to single chars
#
gRegorLove
+1 snarfed
#
tantek
it's for any use of emoji in the text of a tweet
#
snarfed
KevinMarks: notably, bridgy doesn't strip the @username prefix from @-reply reacjweets
#
tantek
so does not apply as evidence for reacjweets
#
snarfed
shudder
#
KevinMarks
yes, and there are lots of single char ones there, and single char + link ones
#
Loqi
Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm. http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html
#
KevinMarks
I'd link some but they scroll past so fast I can't grab the links
#
kodfabrik.se
edited /jumbomoji (+52) "Adjusting definition" (view diff)
#
tantek
kevinmarks with or without @-names?
#
aaronpk
if someone fixes the photo i can regenerate it now
#
aaronpk
looks like i need to give Loqi a way to regen it from an IRC command
#
tantek
done
#
tantek
with the @-name, it's more than one character, thus not a reacji
#
tantek
without the @-name, it's not a response to anybody/anything, thus not a *re*acji
#
tantek
er, *reac*ji
#
voxpelli
snarfed: was thinking the mf2 source :)
#
kylewm
fwiw, reacjweet is better than tweeacji which I think Kevin suggested first
#
kylewm
KevinMarks++
#
Loqi
KevinMarks has 213 karma
#
tantek
why not tweeji while we're at it? it that better snarfed? :P
#
snarfed
voxpelli: ah. https://brid.gy/facebook/11500459#responses has a few
#
snarfed
funny
#
tantek
although perhaps that's for smaller reacji since jumbomoji are for larger ones
#
tantek
that reacji is so small it's twee
#
voxpelli
no one else agreeing that just as much as a Facepile is a design element popularized by eg. Facebook, then Reacji is a _design element_ popularized by Slack?
#
tantek
snarfed: I think you're safe, only one use of reacjweet on twitter: https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=reacjweet&src=typd
#
voxpelli
Slack saw how people reacted with emojis to other peoples posts and decided to improve the _presentation_ of that
#
KevinMarks
watch http://www.emojitracker.com/details/1F633 for a bit
#
snarfed
voxpelli++ i agree
#
Loqi
voxpelli has 74 karma
#
tantek
voxpelli: no because there's no description of the presentation
#
tantek
face*pile* is visually descriptive
#
voxpelli
reacji is just an *emoji*pile though?
#
tantek
on Slack you could call them voteji since they show counts :P
#
KevinMarks
eg https://twitter.com/Emonnechantel_/status/726149517402320897
#
@Emonnechantel_
😳 https://twitter.com/chiiijake/status/725836468262965248 (twtr.io/1C3JQFv72UH)
#
tantek
what is a reacjweet?
#
Loqi
A reacjweet is a reacji posted as a tweet https://indiewebcamp.com/reacjweet
#
tantek
KevinMarks: ^^^ add your examples there
#
voxpelli
the voting part isn't necessary I think, one could decide merge to make reacji's more facepily as well
#
voxpelli
it's kind of odd actually to show an avatar for a repost and a like, but not to show an avatar for a reacji, one probably has to do one or the other – either do voting for everything or facepiles for everything
#
KevinMarks
when gillmor gang finishes
#
tantek
voxpelli: can't tell without more examples
#
tantek
for now, since Slack is the only "voting" like example, if you think their presentation is important, you have to take it as-is
#
KevinMarks
the badging I do would work for reacji too
#
sknebel
Github is also voting-like
#
tantek
were you to sketch/build your own way of summarizing reacji, then we could have a discussion about it :)
#
voxpelli
KevinMarks: yeah, both you and me actually use emojis already to badge our facepiles :)
#
tantek
sknebel: a-ha! two examples, perhaps take tight screenshots and compare to see if you can discern all the common elements
#
voxpelli
tantek: so yeah, both me and KevinMarks kind of already have emojis in our facepiles, I just need to parse out reacji-data so that we can badge the faces with those as well
#
KevinMarks
and mine need a bit more separation
#
voxpelli
the upside of Slacks presentation compared to a face-pile presentation is that Slacks presentation are also buttons, so one can easily add the same reaction (and that typically happens a lot)
#
tantek
looking forward to seeing your designs!
#
KevinMarks
hm, you could wrap them in web actions
#
tantek
aaronpk did you blacklist jsbin.com from iwc indieauth?
#
tantek
noting "New Community Members" in this-week
#
tantek
hmm, possibly herokuapp.com also
#
voxpelli
KevinMarks: yeah, would have to do that then + set up an indieconfig that would work ro reacji
#
KevinMarks
if people repost and like, should you show their face with 2 emoji?
#
voxpelli
tantek: herokuapp.com is where I host my webmention endpoint :P
#
aaronpk
can't right now
#
tantek
but you shouldn't be indieauthing with it!
#
KevinMarks
well, it's a reply with a specific char
#
tantek
it's not your identity
#
voxpelli
KevinMarks: I think that would make sense, either collapse on avatar or on action
#
KevinMarks
voxpelli: your webmention tool needs a better name
#
voxpelli
tantek: nope, as long as the blacklist doesn't go beyond indieauthing I'm cool :)
#
voxpelli
KevinMarks: I'm on it
#
tantek.com
edited /jumbomoji (-4) "no e.g. nor eg. in dfns" (view diff)
#
tantek
voxpelli: that's all I was saying
#
tantek
what is Jumbomoji
#
Loqi
jumbomoji is Slack's term for presenting enlarged emoji's when a post contains nothing but emojis – a design concept popularized by Facebook Messenger https://indiewebcamp.com/jumbomoji
#
notenoughneon.com
edited /jam (+197) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
#
voxpelli
KevinMarks: I was pixels away form accidentally ordering a new premium domain name for $10k before I realized that it didn't cost the $55 I expected it to
#
tantek
whoa! which TLD?
#
KevinMarks
ouch
#
snarfed
i doubt we want to blacklist all of herokuapp.com. it's a good hosting service. people should be allowed to host their personal sites on it
#
tantek
wait, .ouch is a thing?
#
voxpelli
tantek: three letter domain on .tech
#
KevinMarks
hm https://flow.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/welcome-to-microsoft-flow/
#
tantek
snarfed, let's blacklist until we have a legit example show up and ask why it's not working
#
tantek
so far we have a non-example
#
KevinMarks
I was about to suggest using my flowpast.com domain for it, when I saw that
#
tantek
thus we should adapt accordingly
#
tantek
what is .tech?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for ".tech" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KB
#
snarfed
one bad actor means we blacklist an entire service? seems draconian
#
tantek
voxpelli: ^^^ could you document that warning about $10k?!?
#
snarfed
let's blacklist the one bad actor
#
tantek
more like it highlights a silo we had not yet blacklisted
#
voxpelli
tantek: I think it applies across many of the new TLD:s, which is a bit dangerous as https://domainr.com/ gives great suggestions with them :P
#
KevinMarks
I also have meemoji.com which I need to do something with
#
tantek
what are short domains?
#
Loqi
short domains are commonly used on the IndieWeb for personal URL shortening, or clever domain hacks https://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains
#
tantek
voxpelli: ^^^ we've been documenting bad ones so far there
#
tantek
feel free to add to that existing page too
# benborges joined the channel
#
kodfabrik.se
edited /short-domains (+459) "/* Domains */ Adding warning about .tech and similar" (view diff)
# [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
:mojojojo:
#
KevinMarks
mojojojoemoji
#
KevinMarks
or emojojojojoji
# benborges joined the channel
# Pierre-O joined the channel
# Lancey joined the channel
#
@indiewebcamp
This week in the #indieweb https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-04-29.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/726159125579620352/photo/1 (twtr.io/1C3MqC6pMCY)
#
aaronpk
snarfed: it's not about blacklisting a service as a hosting provider, it's about the ID
#
aaronpk
sure use heroku, but point your own domain to it
#
snarfed
aaronpk: right, but some people might use a herokuapp.com subdomain as their id for a while
#
snarfed
like tumblr, blogspot, hosted known etc
#
aaronpk
not to log in to the wiki they won't
#
aaronpk
current blacklist is github.io, wordpress.com, blogspot.com, livejournal.com
#
snarfed
sure we encourage them to get their own domain, but it's nice to have a warm welcome
#
snarfed
why?
#
aaronpk
having your own domain is step 1
#
snarfed
so it's a value/policy we're intentionally choosing?
#
snarfed
ok
#
aaronpk
even if you don't do any other indiewebcamp related things, we encourage people to have their own domain because that's where data and identity ownership starts
#
aaronpk
and just to clarify, this blacklist is on wiki logins, not on indieauth.com
#
snarfed
ok
#
KevinMarks
it is a bit tricky as it does require them to spend $10/year
# alexhartley joined the channel
# miklb joined the channel
# tantek joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /jumbomoji (-1) "no ' for plurals" (view diff)
# alexhartley joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# miklb joined the channel
#
@kylewmahan
@benwerd Google rankings tend to love indieweb stuff. I bet we publish differently than they expect a typical site to (twtr.io/1C3UJAJiXcb)
#
tantek
well no kidding. our pages are smaller, faster, and better marked up than the bloated cesspool spiral that the "corporate" web is diving into
# tbbrown_ joined the channel
#
tantek
wow I just got the most awesome warning message in Twitter on an "older" Safari: You are on Twitter Mobile because you are using an old version of Safari.
#
tantek
IT IS SO FAST
#
gRegorLove
aaronpk: Might add tilde.club to that blacklist. I logged in with that quite a while ago.
#
rrix
tantek: i almost exclusively use twitter mobile web for this reason.
# hs0ucy joined the channel
#
tantek
rrix I'm now considering changing my autolinker to automatically link to mobile.twitter for any @-name or twitter.com status permalink
# [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
Shame that m.foursquare.com stopped working
#
kylewm
tilde.club is pretty indie, categorically different than tumblr et al
#
snarfed
but still not your own domain, which was the key point
#
rrix
thats not a bad idea at all, tantek
#
snarfed
seems like something you might want to let your viewers decide? rather than decide for them?
#
kylewm
I like the tilde.club spirit of like knowing your sysadmin/person who owns the domain
#
kylewm
even if it's not quite the same of you owning the domain
#
tantek
snarfed, I think some amount of policy decision is inevitable in an autolinker - just have to be deliberate about why
#
[kevinmarks]
For @ names you could link to the intent page that has hCard
#
tantek
e.g. I have a few domains whitelisted as auto-HTTPS
#
tantek
KevinMarks: I was just thinking that! Should I pop them up too?
#
tantek
(target=twitter-profile or something
#
tantek
)
#
tantek
I need to fix that anyway, shaners filed an issue about h-x-username making it sound like a microformat in progress / experiment which it isn't really
#
tantek
he made the point that anything "microformatty" (not sure if he said that word in particular) in my markup in particular is something he was paying extra attention to (thus others may) as something to copy
#
tantek
forgot to ask barnabywalters if he cared
#
[kevinmarks]
If you made it an h-card, and link to the intent?
#
tantek
an @-name is insufficient to make an h-card by itself
#
tantek
hence why barnabywalters and I came up with h-x-username
#
tantek
I might use a vendor prefix though instead of x
#
tantek
or library prefix in this case I suppose. h-cassis-
#
gRegorLove
tantek: Related, I noticed the microformats/test suite has an 'h-as-note' test based on your notes
#
kylewm
kill it with fire!
#
tantek
sigh
#
tantek
I feel like there's a lesson to be learned in here somewhere
#
tantek
(agreed with kylewm, if you can figure out a way to remove it, that would be great)
#
gRegorLove
Make a pull request! :) https://github.com/microformats/tests/
#
tantek
kylewm, snarfed, any idea why none of the secondary (etc.) follow-ups to http://werd.io/2016/focus-simplify-kill-1 on Twitter made it into the Bridgy backfeed?
#
Loqi
[Ben Werdmüller] Focus.
# snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek
snarfed, did you join because you were mentioned?
#
snarfed
no
#
snarfed
reads logs
#
snarfed
tantek: usually something in https://brid.gy/about#missing
# alexhartley joined the channel
#
tantek
has anyone that uses IFTTT tried Microsoft Flow? (flow.microsoft.com) - just saw this: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3063577/software-productivity/microsoft-develops-ifttt-rival-called-flow-for-connecting-apps-and-services.html
#
gRegorLove
What is Microsoft Flow?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Microsoft Flow" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KC
#
tantek.com
edited /IFTTT (+364) "/* Alternatives */ hosted free vs paid, Microsoft Flow" (view diff)
#
tantek
Microsoft Flow is a free alternative to [[IFTTT]] at https://flow.microsoft.com/ for connecting apps and services with automation.
#
loqi.me
created /Microsoft_Flow (+157) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-29/line/1461976241473 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
tantek.com
edited /Microsoft_Flow (+278) "articles, see also" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove
Is IFTTT only paid now?
#
tantek
I don't know - haven't tried it recently
#
miklb
no they still have a free tier
#
gregorlove.com
edited /IFTTT (-11) "tweak dfn" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove
"free alternative to IFTTT" made me wonder
#
miklb
as does zapier
#
gregorlove.com
edited /IFTTT (+21) "/* See Also */ MS Flow" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove
What is Zapier?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Zapier" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10KD
#
miklb
isn't good at wiki definitions.
#
gRegorLove
May not need its own page. It's on /IFTTT
#
gRegorLove
Could use that to start though
#
gRegorLove
Delicious.com migration seems complete. Now back at http://del.icio.us
#
gRegorLove
https not working yet, though.
#
gRegorLove
Hey, remembered my delicious password on the first try!
#
sknebel
oh wow, they came back from the dead?
#
gRegorLove
Never officially died, afaik. Just lots of transitions.
#
gRegorLove
I briefly documented them on /Delicious#History
#
sknebel
yeah, but the last few days I thought that was it
#
gRegorLove
Oh, no. They announced on the blog the "going back to their roots" thing, including the domain
#
gRegorLove
Took a couple days
#
gRegorLove
We'll see how long until the next acquisition, though :)
#
Loqi
I don't know
#
miklb
Pinboard has been trying to buy it for a while
#
gRegorLove
Does Loqi respond to every 'how long' with IDK?
#
gRegorLove
How long until next-hwc?
#
tantek
when is next-hwc?
#
Loqi
Homebrew Website Club Meetup is on 2016-05-04 at Steampunk Bar https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
#
tantek
:D
#
gRegorLove
Yeah, knew about that one. Just noticed Loqi saying IDK a lot and 'how long' seemed to be the common words.
#
tantek
Wow there may be something worse than plumbing-first design: concept-first design, or worse, concept-first acronyms, e.g. CHEDDAR: https://twitter.com/lewisha/status/724998185609924608
#
@lewisha
.@fatemehx2 Momentum & plans building at #IIW. Take a look at @dmarti #CHEDDAR framework. adios #bigdata @dsearls [photo] (twtr.io/1BwT7DkTRiU)
#
tantek
KevinMarks: did you see this discussion at all ^^^ can you provide any context that would explain this in terms of a rational approach to technology and/or policy?
# [kevinmarks] joined the channel
#
[kevinmarks]
Yes, I tweeted notes, need to link them. There is a defining post
#
tantek.com
created /The_Loqi (+303) "stub, dfn, see also" (view diff)
#
tantek
apparently I missed this when it was published: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/i-turned-off-javascript-for-a-whole-week-and-it-was-glorious/
#
Loqi
Slide: 1 / of 2 .
#
tantek
sigh
#
tantek
good ol' Klint!
#
tantek.com
edited /js;dr (+200) "/* Related Articles */ I Turned Off JavaScript for a Whole Week and It Was Glorious" (view diff)
#
tantek
(totally missed the 1yr anniversary of js;dr)
#
tantek
Interesting thing about that article are the "key" use-cases he lists offhand of things that didn't work: Netflix, YouTube, Google Docs, FB mobile.
#
tantek
pretty sure my /video posts play without JS (they just use the video tag, browser controls, and an MP4 file)
#
tantek
I wonder if anyone has even tried to build something even remotely similar to Google Docs that worked without JS. Closest I can think of is MediaWiki.
#
tantek
are there any Micropub clients that work without JS?
#
[kevinmarks]
http://blog.aloodo.org/posts/new-acronym/
#
tantek
ok it's about trying to convince the ad industry to behave better purely with rhetoric?
#
[kevinmarks]
It's a list of practices
#
tantek
"practices" implies a framing of "existing" which I don't see links/citations to examples thereof, thus rhetoric
#
[kevinmarks]
This is better advocacy for it http://blog.aloodo.org/posts/service-journalism/
#
tantek
if you haven't done something, it's not a practice yet, it's just a theory
#
kylewm
tries woodwind without js
#
kylewm
got a weird JSON response in the browser but was able to post
#
kylewm
also notes that Bridgy Publish works gracefully without JS
#
tantek
nice
#
tantek
kylewm were you trying FF dev edition when you got the JSON response? ;)
#
kylewm
indieauth.com does not work without js
#
kylewm
Quill works great with no-js
#
tantek
wow
#
@indiewebcamp
RT @marcthiele Hey @glennjones – this time no #IndieWebCamp for you in Düsseldorf? ;) https://beyondtellerrand.com/events/duesseldorf-2016/side-events#indiewebcamp (twtr.io/1C3iPoGrNEQ)
#
@indiewebcamp
RT @kylewmahan @benwerd Google rankings tend to love indieweb stuff. I bet we publish differently than they expect a typical site to (twtr.io/1C3iLuRnUvU)
#
tantek
also interesting from that article: "Twitter worked, but it lacked the handy character counter, making it hard to know if a tweet was too long or not." which makes me wonder if there's an opportunity for a browser extension or possibly HTML spec addition to display character count for input fields, especially those with a maxlength or minlength attribute
#
tantek
Also, "I could browse WIRED, but not view or leave comments." - do any IndieWeb CMSs allow leaving comments without JS? WordPress presumably does (guessing). Does Known? I'm assuming all the "send me a webmention" URL inputs work fine without JS.
#
tantek
"The deal breaker was that turning off JavaScript broke a bunch of my favorite Google Chrome extensions. " - I wonder which Chrome extensions
#
[kevinmarks]
I suspect noterlive won't work
#
gRegorLove
My site's comments will work without JS
#
tantek
gRegorLove: is that due to ProcessWire?
#
gRegorLove
It's a custom setup, but I'm pretty sure the core ProcessWire Comments module will as well
#
tantek
since /js;dr is documenting failures, I'd like to figure out the complementary positive framing so we can capture these good behaviors
# snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk
I'm surprised quill worked without JS actually. I just refactored it to use JS in order to support photo uploading with the preview
#
aaronpk
maybe it fell back to a normal form post somehow
#
aaronpk
but I build the category array in JS so that would come through as a comma separated string probly
#
tantek
fascinating: http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-f8-ten-year-roadmap-2016-4 - was anyone at F8 this year to see this in person?
#
tantek.com
edited /Facebook (+173) "/* Articles */ Facebook just showed us its 10-year road map in one graphic" (view diff)
#
tantek
What's fascinating about this chart http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/570d2caa52bcd01a008bc210-997-419/screen%20shot%202016-04-12%20at%201.10.45%20pm.png is that it looks a lot like some of the future plans of Google 5-10 years ago (IIRC), except FB is already executing much better across the board on its "products" than Google has.
#
tantek.com
edited /Facebook (+250) "/* Articles */ embed roadmap inline" (view diff)
#
tantek
which do people here feel like they keep in mind more when doing web development? Graceful Degradation or Progressive Enhancement? (see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Graceful_degradation_versus_progressive_enhancement and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement for clarification if you're not sure)
#
tantek
Or door number 3: Unobtrusive Javascript: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript
#
aaronpk
For content based sites, progressive enhancement
#
aaronpk
But not for apps
#
tantek
clearly you did *something* for Quill
#
aaronpk
Possibly unintentionally lol
#
aaronpk
but that would be graceful degradation since I definitely prioritized JS for it
#
tantek.com
edited /Events (+7) "move past events to recent, done with April 2016!" (view diff)
# alexhartley joined the channel
#
tantek
I'm pushing the limits of how much manual work I have to do to person-tag my photo posts.
#
tantek
what kind of UI are folks using for person-tagging their photo posts? (besides PESOSing via ownyourgram :P )
# snarfed joined the channel
#
sknebel
what's the way to add attributes (e.g. dt-created, p-location) to a photo in a post? I'm sure I read something in the wiki, but I can't find it again
#
sknebel
there doesn't seem to be a microformat specific to images, so put the image in a nested h-entry?
#
tantek
sknebel: the photo isn't in the post, it's a /photo post
#
tantek
what is a photo?
#
Loqi
A photo is a post whose primary content is a photograph or other image, with an optional caption. With multiple photographs it becomes a multi-photo post https://indiewebcamp.com/photo
#
tantek
where did you get dt-created from?
#
sknebel
good question, probably meant published ;)
#
sknebel
but that doesn't work for a post like "I was there one year ago"
#
tantek
is that what you're posting?
#
sknebel
Or if the image is an illustration, the place where it was taken might still be interesting
#
sknebel
but is not the location of the post
#
sknebel
the "1 year ago" scenario was what I was originally thinking about
#
tantek
do you have some 1 year old photos that you're thinking about posting?
#
sknebel
yes ;)
#
tantek
what is a throwback
#
Loqi
A throwback is a current post of content from some time ago, typically at least days, often years https://indiewebcamp.com/throwback
#
tantek
one particular challenge that I'm finding with manual person-tagging is that some (most?) do not have their own site, and some do not have a Twitter username (which could be used for a simple text-entry of @-names), a few don't have FB either.
# alexhartley joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek++
#
Loqi
tantek has 288 karma
#
snarfed
span class="h-card" ?
#
tantek
yeah that's the fallback, with just an implied name inside
#
tantek
or rather span class="p-category h-card"
#
tantek
instead of "u-category h-card"
#
tantek
when there's nothing to link to
#
tantek
though perhaps I can make a local person-tag page for them?
# snarfed joined the channel
# snarfed1 joined the channel
#
GWG
Evening
#
tantek
Evening
#
tantek
hmm I've decided to always use u-category h-card
#
GWG
I'm looking at Salmentions.
#
tantek
for person-tags
#
tantek
and then inside, even if I don't have an indieweb site for the person, I'm using <a class="p-name"> instead of span figuring it's less work to upgrade that to add u-url and an href
# mlncn joined the channel
#
tantek
GWG, have you done any implementing or designing of UI for person-tags?
#
GWG
No. It is low on my list because I don't post pictures of other people often.
#
tantek
is SWAT0 a priority for you?
#
GWG
I'd be interested in getting WordPress able to participate.
#
tantek
GWG do you know if there is any work in the WordPress community to add the concept of tagging people in photos to WordPress photo posts?
#
GWG
Not that I've seen.
#
GWG
But the work I'm doing right now wouldn't help on the interface side, but tagging support is limited in Semantic Linkback. It recognizes the relationship, but not much more.
#
tantek
there is an aspect of tagging that is related to Semantic Linkback as it were
#
tantek
that is /tag-of posts
#
tantek
I should say, /tag-of responses in particular
#
Loqi
agreed.
#
GWG
I'm trying to figure out how to make it easier to extend that.
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# hecliunyx joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
# KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# alexhartley joined the channel
# snarfed joined the channel
(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)