#indiewebcamp 2016-05-11

2016-05-11 UTC
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GWG
Evening
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veganstraightedge.com
edited /2016/LA/Guest_List (+252) "/* Participants */"
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GWG
Slow night
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[kevinmarks]
True. Maybe people are recovering from the weekend
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Zegnat
!tell aaronpk I was trying to login on the wiki just now and got “An unhandled lowlevel error occured. The application logs may have details.” on both Twitter and GitHub. Could you check the logs around this timestamp
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
plus some of us have CSS WG meetings all week as well
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Zegnat
Looks like IndieAuth.com does support u-tel. Good to have an answer to my question during IWC.
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Zegnat
Although… it then seems to hang on “Sending verification code…”. I’ll just do my demo write-up offlin and get it on the wiki as soon as I can get in again
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@sl007
@jkphl @indiewebcamp @btconf Same back and on top a special thanks for awesome photos !
(twitter.com/_/status/730363016345194496)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /notification (+90) "Added an interesting article about designing notifications"
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aaronpk
[KevinMarks] I have an SVG challenge for you
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Loqi
aaronpk: Zegnat left you a message 6 hours, 10 minutes ago: I was trying to login on the wiki just now and got “An unhandled lowlevel error occured. The application logs may have details.” on both Twitter and GitHub. Could you check the logs around this timestamp http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-10/line/1462946824886
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aaronpk
Zegnat: what URL were you on when you got that error? indiewebcamp.com or indieauth.com?
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aaronpk
oh that looks like a ruby error, so probably indieauth.com
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aaronpk
now the question is which indieauth.com server did that hit
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aaronpk
Zegnat: nothing on the main indieauth.com server, and my other one wasn't logging right, so let me know if you see that error again
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aaronpk
!tell KevinMarks can you figure out how to make this work with arbitrary text? http://svgur.com/s/5i I want the first and last names to be right aligned with each other, but to start where the first name starts in this example. I want the URL to start at its current start position, and for the font size to shrink if it will be too long to fit. The city and year should be right aligned as well.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
is someone posseing stackoverflow answers and questions?
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GWG
Morning
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aaronpk
good morning
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GWG
I'm potentially excited. Pfefferle got Internet.
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GWG
I'm sure he's more thrilled than I am about that, but I've been eager for feedback on all those commits I sent him for webmentions.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2016/Guest_List (+1351) "/* RSVPs */ add indie RSVPs from 2016.indieweb.org"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2016/Guest_List (-53) "updated counts"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2016/Guest_List (-204) "/* Official Guest List */ update instructions"
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GWG
I'm cautiously excited about the Summit.
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Loqi
[Jeremy Keith] Indie Web Camp Düsseldorf took place last weekend and it was—no surprise—really excellent.
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aaronpk
next we gotta get you syndicating those to indienews! :-)
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aaronpk
(hint: it's just sending a webmention)
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adactio
aaronpk: hmmm ...I think that could be arranged.
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Loqi
adactio: tantek left you a message on 3/29 at 2:27pm: any thoughts about an IWC Brighton this year? Perhaps sometime in 2016-09-24…26 date range? a few of us likely to be in Portugal for W3C TPAC week ending 2016-09-23. cc: aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-03-29/line/1459286859030
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Loqi
adactio: tantek left you a message on 4/3 at 4:56pm: is Brighton HWC on this week? assuming not due to AEA Seattle. https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-04-06-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-03/line/1459727759868
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Loqi
adactio: tantek left you a message on 4/6 at 10:58am: did you take a photo at Homebrew Website Club 2016-03-23? Can you add it to: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-03-23-homebrew-website-club#Photos ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-06/line/1459965493893
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Loqi
adactio: tantek left you a message on 4/21 at 6:05pm: Can you confirm HWC Brighton 2016-05-04? Update location? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-04-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-04-21/line/1461287107509
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2016/Planning (+40) "/* To Do */"
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aaronpk
oh awesome, using a media endpoint for quill means i can auto-save this draft of a note without worrying about saving the actual photo data in the browser
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aaronpk
all i have to do is save the URL
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petermolnar
!tell GWG I'm checking your changes to the webmention plugin; so far, nice work; I miss only one thing: debug logs :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
petermolnar, you mean that write to file thing?
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GWG
That was in the old version or something else
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petermolnar
to be honest, I dislike the WP approach of self-maintained logs; instead I use plain PHP error_log, but the right way would probably be to use the WP_Error class for this somehow
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petermolnar
but I'm not certain, how
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GWG
petermolnar, what do you want to log? It does send messages about outgoing webmentions if WP_DEBUG is set to the error log.
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petermolnar
that is a notice level log; I'm missing the optional info, debug, etc. levels, where basically I see messages from the steps, eg. why and where in the code was a mention rejected, for example
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GWG
You want to log incoming?
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petermolnar
optionally, yes
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hongpong
with some effort i tracked down this 404 logger, maybe you could do similar on webmentions https://wordpress.org/plugins/404-error-logger/
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hongpong
i feel like any drupal 8 webmentions should target entities, not nodes as such
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GWG
WordPress doesn't really do logging at that level unless the plugin does it.
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petermolnar
and it's a shame
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[shaners]
This might could be a way to get Firefox to adopt indieweby features faster.
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GWG
But I will see about making it easier to add that.
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GWG
I was looking at that.
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petermolnar
(and I just realized we all have our issues; some with indention, some with string concatenation :) )
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GWG
Likely I would go for passing failures to a function that triggers and action before exiting
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petermolnar
(using 3 different concat methods in the same function is ugly, shame on me)
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petermolnar
GWG in a perfect world, this would be handled with exceptions, where the exception handler is also the optional debug logger
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GWG
It isn't a perfect world
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GWG
The best I can offer is a better way to optionally add what you want
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petermolnar
this is just an idea
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petermolnar
kind of a future-proofing to help debugging
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petermolnar
because debugging webmentions is tricky
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petermolnar
so it's a wish, not a want :)
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GWG
petermolnar, I still am trying to design so it could be extended that way.
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petermolnar
url_to_postid uses schema-less search
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GWG
Can you comment on the pull with that? That line predates me. It was in the original
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GWG
I got rid of a lot of redundant stuff
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GWG
Like the absolute URL function. WordPress has one.
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petermolnar
I wasn't aware of that, just spotted it in your code
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GWG
If there are more chances, I'd like to add them.
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GWG
But URL_to_postid does not use schemaless search per se
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GWG
It uses whatever schema the site is using
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GWG
Someone could conceivably send an HTTP link to an HTTPS site
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petermolnar
you're right
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petermolnar
I remembered something else
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GWG
So, better to check for HTTPS if enabled, and then check for HTTP
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GWG
Oh?
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petermolnar
nah, it's fine, I don't think the order matters
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kylewm
!tell miklb I use this little python script to get micropub access tokens https://gist.github.com/kylewm/5484831548b32d8bce2b2bb20be402f9 ... the only trick is the redirect to http://kylewm.github.io/oob/, which lets you copy/paste the indieauth code
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
!tell tantek and aaronpk After you got me to remove my hidden h1 with the short title from my notes implementations try to come up with a autogenerated from name and it looks more than shitty: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/10/31/video
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
Zegnat: I'm not sure if the SMS sending is still working. I think aaronpk may have turned that off (but maybe forgot to turn off that part of the UI?)
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Loqi
tantek: Jeena left you a message 18 minutes ago: and aaronpk After you got me to remove my hidden h1 with the short title from my notes implementations try to come up with a autogenerated from name and it looks more than shitty: https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/10/31/video http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1462983632370
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aaronpk
hmm, I didn't intentionally turn it off, but it's possible the twilio account is empty and didn't auto-renew
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aaronpk
actually... i have no idea if it can send to non-US numbers
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tantek
aaronpk: likely for a fee ;)
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tantek
!tell Jeena there were two parts to the solution! removing the hidden h1 was only part 1. part 2: put p-name on the same element as e-content!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
[indieweb] "raamdev closed issue raamdev/independent-publisher#201" by raamdev https://github.com/raamdev/independent-publisher/issues/201
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Loqi
miklb: kylewm left you a message 42 minutes ago: I use this little python script to get micropub access tokens https://gist.github.com/kylewm/5484831548b32d8bce2b2bb20be402f9 ... the only trick is the redirect to http://kylewm.github.io/oob/, which lets you copy/paste the indieauth code http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1462983088750
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miklb
kylewm nice! bonus points it is python, can use it directly in iOS with Editorial/Pythonista
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miklb
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 330 karma
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adactio
San Franciscan Indieweb-ers; this looks like the kind of event you should go to: http://www.decentralizedweb.net/
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Loqi
[indieweb] "raamdev commented on issue raamdev/independent-publisher#197" by raamdev https://github.com/raamdev/independent-publisher/issues/197#issuecomment-218520680
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tantek
adactio, how do you suggest positively engaging with that event? I'm having trouble stomaching the $75 fee for an academic conference
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adactio
tantek: I suggest going along and joining in without pre-judging it.
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tantek
(regardless, we did add it to the /Events page a few weeks ago
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tantek
adactio, after 4 days of IW Summit and SWWG f2f in Portland, will likely be too exhausted to sensibly participate in two more days
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tantek
that being said, a bunch of us have reached out and invited their organizers to IW Summit and SWWG f2f - haven't heard anything back
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[shaners]
It’s not looking good for us selling enough shirts in time. Still need to sell 22 in 4 days.
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aaronpk
i sent an email out to everyone who registered on ti.to with the link
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[shaners]
If you know anyone who’d be interested but maybe hasn’t see them, please blast them
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aaronpk
anyone up for working on content for a microformats or webmention cheat sheet? http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Planning#Graphics_.2F_Design
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tantek
aaronpk it's about time we made an updated cheatsheet! you've seen the previous version right?
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aaronpk
found a bunch of them
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Loqi
cheat-sheet
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tantek
the folding one was particularly nice
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aaronpk
i think you gave me the folding one when we met
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tantek
in 2009?
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Zegnat
aaronpk, tantek, I never received an SMS verification code, so I am guessing that does not work anymore.
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Zegnat
I’ll see if I can login any other way after dinner
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aaronpk
the GPG one should still work, that one is always fun
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Zegnat
Hmm, I do not have an active GPG key anymore, I think. Should probably add one.
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veganstraightedge.com
edited /2016/Planning (+109) "/* Cheat Sheets: raise hand */"
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veganstraightedge.com
edited /2016/Planning (+66) "/* Cheat Sheets */"
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tantek
btw - anyone making cheat sheets from the specs, please give me a heads-up before you enshrine anything in print from the microformats specs - it's likely that most of the specs need some review to upgrade many of the properties from ideas to proposed, or proposed to draft, etc.
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tantek
aaronpk, shaners ^^^
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[shaners]
Oh yeah! I remember these old mf cheatsheets. I definitely printed those out and hung them on the wall next to my desk in Seattle.
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@chrisbergr
Has anybody played with the Idea of #indieweb polls (behavior like rsvp) before? Are there examples? // cc @indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/730456738365898753)
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[benatwork]
Funny, we were talking about something similar the other day
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aaronpk
that's kind of where the basis of micropub came from actually
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aaronpk
i was thinking about how to do polls, and realized i could just make an HTML form to describe the poll, instead of coming up with some mf2 markup for it
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aaronpk
but i didn't want to submit the form to my site, cause that wouldn't be very indieweb. i wanted the form to be submitted to the person's site who is submitting it
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tantek
GWG: are you here? Can you help with starting / cloning the IWC NYC2 wiki pages? https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/NYC2
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (+473) "move some done to past, note IWC NYC2 date/venue set! need help wikifying, bump Brighton to near the top, set a proposed date for Brighton"
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tantek
Zegnat: ^^^
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (+11) "drop "," from heading, link 2016 UK page"
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tantek
Zegnat: in particular, add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#Brighton_UK
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Zegnat
Alright, guess I’ll add my name, if I can get myself logged in ;)
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tantek
voxpelli: you too ^^^
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Zegnat
Well, login went through, so whatever it was, IndieAuth works again (aaronpk)
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /Planning (+79) "/* Brighton UK */"
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Zegnat
AFAIK right now, the whole of September would work for me. It is more a money than time issue on my end. Guess I should not even add a date or vote then?
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voxpelli
looks like I'm already added to the Brighton one, yay!
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Loqi
yay!
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[shaners]
aaronpk: That’s a complicated badge design request. At least, complicated to do programmatically.
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aaronpk
the text alignment?
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aaronpk
i feel like kevinmarks would know some clever tricks with matrix transforms and svg text align properties
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[shaners]
yes. and resizing
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[shaners]
Maybe he does.
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aaronpk
i could do it all in PHP as a raster image...
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aaronpk
so, take that as a challenge :P
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aaronpk
if nobody comes up with an SVG solution, i'm writing this in PHP
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[shaners]
I’m exploring it in Illustrator / SVG / ruby
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[shaners]
How many people are expected for Indieweb Summit?
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aaronpk
Max of 5
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[shaners]
Is the idea to make this a reusable badge dingus for all IWCs?
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[shaners]
In that case, I’d suggest making the design simpler.
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[shaners]
Angled text and some right, some left aligned text gets difficult.
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[shaners]
Especially, with variable length things
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sknebel
long first names look like they might be difficult
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sknebel
in that design
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aaronpk
shrink the name to fit too?
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[shaners]
Who’s got the longest first name that we can think on indieweb land?
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aaronpk
the angle only matters a little, since you can just rotate everything after doing the alignment
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aaronpk
i'm like 90% sure i can make this happen as a bitmap and also as a PDF generated from Ruby. I was just hoping someone would know more about SVG internals to make it work with SVG since that's a way simpler and more maintainable process in the end.
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tantek
^^^ js;dr :P
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tantek
holy f*** <section data-markdown>
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tantek
are you kidding me!?
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aaronpk
it's pretty neat! looks like a fully functional version of a webmention system where the source documents are JSON
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tantek
remind me to never start a blog post with "we want to describe a new possibility"
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tantek
a system? more like a library
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aaronpk
literally a library lol
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aaronpk
like, with books
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aaronpk
i'm pretty impressed with this frankly
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aaronpk
it looks like he got everything working, including modifying my ruby webmention client to work with the JSON documents
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tantek
definitely seems like it has potential
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tantek
I'm curious if any of the RT/MTs above are folks that would deploy and try it out
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tantek
or if it's mostly cheering
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tantek
What I find fascinating about this paper is how they've basically taken the academic approach to annotations, and BUILT a solution with Webmention
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tantek
with AFAIK, zero use of W3C Annotations
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aaronpk
also the library world is no laughing matter. there's TONS of work being done there.
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tantek
unless I'm confused and the JSON they use is actually W3C Annotations JSON
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tantek
(which it might be?)
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tantek
I can never keep all the random JSON(LD) formats in mind
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tantek
also I can't tell the difference between a one-off custon JSON format and anything (semi)standard
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tantek
aaronpk: nice validation of Webmention itself as a re-usable building block
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tantek
and validation of the minimal modular building block approach
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aaronpk
indeed!
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tantek
oh! this IIIF stuff is the stuff that one guy that came to IWC NYC was working on! And working to make webmentions work with!
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tantek
what is IIIF
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "IIIF" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10LD
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aaronpk
oh really?
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tantek
IIIF is the International Image Interoperability Framework, http://iiif.io/ and was discussed at IndieWebCamp NYC 2016.
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loqi.me
created /IIIF (+146) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1462992648976 and dfn added by tantek"
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@BArmintor
Getting that WebMention is the path for client communication back to #IIIF servers that seems to be one of the background questions here
(twitter.com/_/status/730470537512816644)
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tantek
aaronpk: here you go https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/NYC/Webmentions (search for IIIF)
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tantek
anarchivist: hey is this the result of all your work at IWC NYC and after?
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anarchivist
tantek: not mine, but jeffrey witt and rafael schwemmer, as mentioned in the blog posts
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tantek
but presumably from your ideas and efforts?
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tantek
pretty amazing stuff
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anarchivist
more the otherway around - i foundout about webmention and IWC from them
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tantek
oh wow!
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anarchivist
(they're giving a presentation right now at the IIIF event in NYC)
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tantek
anarchivist: BTW save the dates if you can make it - IWC NYC2 August 27-28!
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anarchivist
also found out about webmention from rob sanderson through that community as well
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tantek
got it
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tantek
definitely pass along that "save the dates" for IndieWebCamp NYC2 to the rest of the folks there too!
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anarchivist
thx! will try - getting married earlier in the month and not sure about our honeymoon plans
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tantek
congratulations!!
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Zegnat
congrats anarchivist
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tantek.com
edited /2016/NYC2 (+133) "interested from planning, see also"
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tantek
voxpelli, Zegnat if 2016-09-25..26 is good for you for Brighton, can you add your name and +1 to that list (right now I'm the only one there :) https://indiewebcamp.com/Planning#Brighton_UK
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tantek
and if there are other (weekend) dates you can make, please feel free to add them to the "Possible dates:" subsection
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@mx4muse
demo on use of #webmentions for notification of new #IIIF resources, enabling further sharing of scholarship @textandbytes @jeffreycwitt
(twitter.com/_/status/730472570999455744)
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jimpick.com
edited /2016/Guest_List (+317) "/* RSVPs */"
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voxpelli
tantek: 2016-09-25..26 is a sunday and a monday, is that correct?
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tantek
fixing
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (+36) "/* Brighton UK */ fix dates, link to TPAC 2016"
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tantek
thanks voxpelli
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Planning (+19) "/* Brighton UK */ Add myself to the September date"
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aaronpk
i'm gonna need to figure out how i want to handle bilingual streams of posts soon too... https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/11/19/react
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Heute Abend versuch ich React zu lernen, aber der Workshop ist auf Deutsch. Es ist... schwer.
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tantek
!tell tbrb are you planning on doing another IWC Edinburgh this year in July? (like last year's? https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh )
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat
tantek: where do I got if every weekend is fine with me? Wouldn't not-voting for a date be more logical?
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tantek
schwer oder sehr schwer?
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tantek
Zegnat, you can add all the weekends :)
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@jean_bauer
RT @mx4muse demo on use of #webmentions for notification of new #IIIF resources, enabling further sharing of scholarship @textandbytes @jeffreycwitt
(twitter.com/_/status/730473441497886720)
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aaronpk
Zegnat: it's good to see there's more support in general!
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tantek
don't worry, some of us will -1 a bunch because of conflicts
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Zegnat
wants ALL the weekends
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Zegnat
I was just extremely impressed by IWC Düsseldorf, and still riding that high
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voxpelli
Zegnat: An IndieWebMonth it is! ;)
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Zegnat
You could throw one in Malmö, voxpelli. At least I have a place to stay in that case ;)
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voxpelli
All dates in September currently works for me as well, but voting +1 on the suggested one to show that it works, if someone wants to contest it then I'll add another vote there :)
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aaronpk
I want to go back to Malmö!
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voxpelli
We really should do one in Malmö, it would have been perfect to do during The Conference, but it's in august so a bit too soon to get that organized
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aaronpk
let's at least try for next august then!
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Zegnat
Malmö is my favourite city in Sweden by a long shot
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aaronpk
that'll give me 14 months to study swedish...
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tantek
would be great to have an IWC Malmö!
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voxpelli
I'll keep it at the back of my head and try to be on the lookout for a good time to do it if some other time arises :) Should chat with ThatEmil about it
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voxpelli
tantek: sure
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tantek
that way we can at least track interest
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tantek
see if you can get some co-organizers :)
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Zegnat
14 months should work, aaronpk, I think I had a good understanding of the language by that time.
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aaronpk
for real?
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Zegnat
You might also want to ping Jeena
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Zegnat
Yes, but do note, I was in Sweden 24/7
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tantek
yes it is not too soon to start planning for 2017!
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Zegnat
But a basic understanding would probably be able in 14 months if you wanted to. Especially if you are somewhat used to Northern European languages. German helps.
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jimpick.com
edited /2016/Guest_List (+109) "/* RSVPs */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
jimpick++
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Loqi
jimpick has 1 karma
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Planning (+311) "/* Potential Cities */ Adding Malmö"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
Malmö is fairly international, so I you'll get around just fine with English as well: http://www.littlebigmalmo.com/ ;)
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Zegnat
Malmö is very Danish-Dutch in culture, and international, a lot to like!
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Jeena
voxpelli I'm up for a IWC in Malmoe!
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Loqi
Jeena: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 39 minutes ago: there were two parts to the solution! removing the hidden h1 was only part 1. part 2: put p-name on the same element as e-content! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1462984830393
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Jeena
and tantek thanks for the p-name hint, It seems I need to imlplement my own mf2 parster to be able to fully understand the intentions of the design ^^
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /Planning (+105) "/* Potential Cities */"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
Jeena: :D
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aaronpk
implement? no, just read your own posts in an mf2 reader :)
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Jeena
that is not enough, it seems mostly random how it interprets my posts to me
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aaronpk
there are only a couple "weird" rules
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aaronpk
mostly it's just the implied "name" that causes confusion like that
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aaronpk
when in doubt, always mark "p-name" explicitly and then you won't really see any weirdness
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Jeena
I guess so, that is my biggest point of confusion at least
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Jeena
ok that sounds realsonable
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aaronpk
IMO the implied name rule is a little too magic, but here we are
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aaronpk
i think there are some open issues to help with that too, but that'll take a while to settle out
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Jeena
woodwind shows some weird stuff sometimes too like https://jeena.net/s/latest.png
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /Planning (+142) "/* Brighton UK */ wanting ALL the weekends"
(view diff)
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Loqi
[Kyle Mahan] Liked
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[kevinmarks]
I think implied name is not quite magic enough, in that it puts in spurious whitespace
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Loqi
[kevinmarks]: aaronpk left you a message 6 hours, 32 minutes ago: can you figure out how to make this work with arbitrary text? http://svgur.com/s/5i I want the first and last names to be right aligned with each other, but to start where the first name starts in this example. I want the URL to start at its current start position, and for the font size to shrink if it will be too long to fit. The city and year should be right aligned as well. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1462971202539
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Jeena
btw aaronpk what's up with the mega white space between the paragraphs in my comment on https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/10/31/video? the white-space: pre-line; does it, I'm not sure why you added it there.
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] After reading this, I'm seriously considering publishing my conference videos on Amazon's new Video Direct! http://techcrunch.com/2016/05/10/amazon-takes-on-youtube-with-launch-of-amazon-video-direct/...
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aaronpk
it's there because some people publish posts with newlines, and if it's not there then it gets collapsed onto the same line because html
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aaronpk
i'm not actually sure the best solution to that. i could remove padding on <p> tags in comments, but then if someone did <p>a</p><p>b</p> i think it would show up wrong
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aaronpk
this is probably worth documenting in a brainstorming or issues section on /comments-presentation
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Jeena
but how does it look on their own website without <p> it is in one line there too, isn't it?
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aaronpk
it would most likely have one line space between the paragraphs
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Jeena
because they do some magic with CSS?
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aaronpk
no, that's just default
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Zegnat
If you replace \r?\n with <br> Would that not solve things?
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Zegnat
then you can target br with css incase you get P-BR-P
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Zegnat
P + BR { display: none; }
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Jeena
hm? I don't get it how is your html different to theirs?
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aaronpk
i wonder if i could also just strip <p> tags
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aaronpk
i'm already heavily modifying the HTML that's allowed in comments to only allow a few specific elements
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: the HTML is not different. I publish notes in plain text which has next lines an use white-space: pre-wrap to display them. If aaronpk did not use pre-line my para breaks won't show
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aaronpk
yes my notes are published that way as well, tantek's too i think
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Jeena
wow but isn't that just wrong?
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KartikPrabhu
no why is it "wrong"?
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Jeena
why wouldn't you want to mark up a paragraph as a paragraph?
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aaronpk
what's wrong with plain text?
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Jeena
how does it look like in browsers which don't do CSS?
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KartikPrabhu
it looks like a stream of plain text which is fine
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Jeena
what do screen readers do without paragraphs?
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aaronpk
if you look at my notes that use newlines, i don't use a single newline as a paragraph marker
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aaronpk
i use double newline as a paragraph marker
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aaronpk
which looks like you'd expect if you just write text in a text file
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aaronpk
i don't see anything wrong with doing that on a web page
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Jeena
do you have an example?
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] *whew* Made it to the hotel at 6pm local time! In total, 26 hours door to door. From my house: bus to downtown, train to Seattle, cab to airport, plane to Reykjavik, plane to Frankfurt, shuttle to train station, train to Nürnberg, walk to hotel.
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aaronpk
the point is I wrote that text you see verbatim. when authoring it, i didn't have to think about html or anything, it just worked
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kylewm
fwiw, tantek switched to using <br>'s for bridgy publish
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KartikPrabhu
i use single lines
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aaronpk
here's an example of a post with single newlines https://aaronparecki.com/2016/03/01/8/
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Just published new working drafts of Webmention and Micropub!
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aaronpk
i also use single newlines with * for plaintext list formatting https://aaronparecki.com/2016/01/09/23/cocktail
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Cocktail experiment:
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kylewm
my argument was p-content could use newlines, whereas e-content should be formatted with html
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kylewm
because no one consuming your e-content knows that your CSS says whitespace: pre or whatever
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aaronpk
that's fair
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Jeena
exactly
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aaronpk
(still won't help the lynx example tho)
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Jeena
same with https://aaronparecki.com/2016/05/08/14/livestreaming it looked so weird in woodwind
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Loqi
[Aaron Parecki] Notes from #livestreaming IndieWebCamp Germany:
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KartikPrabhu
when parsing p-content for comment display, do you then autolink the links too ?
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aaronpk
seems like that would make sense
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KartikPrabhu
it has been so long since I worked on my site code that I don't remember what I do!
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aaronpk
hm yes i should definitely switch to p-content for my text notes. i don't have a mechanism to author HTML in those anyway, so the intent is to publish a plaintext version of the note
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aaronpk
the only HTML is autolinked URLs, which is easy enough for a consumer of plaintext to do
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Jeena
the list from the second link is obviously even worse ^^ https://jeena.net/s/latest.png but why not just parse it as markdown which would make it a nice HTML list readable by everyone?
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aaronpk
that's a slippery slope
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Jeena
the drawbacks seem much smaller to me than what you have now
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aaronpk
one of the changes I made in the site rebuild was to make the "text/plain" content type output literally what I type
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@mx4muse
.@azaroth on #IIIF functional specifications - #WebStandards: Linked Open Data, JSOn-LD, Linked Data, Open Annotation, Webmentions...
(twitter.com/_/status/730485853613608960)
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KevinMarks
looking at the SVG thing, you could probably do it with generic layout (it's basically a CSS layout but rotated)
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aaronpk
once you go down the path of implementing text transforms, it is not clear where to stop
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Jeena
sure you can still do that?
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KevinMarks
or you could do it in code for each badge, measuring the text.
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KevinMarks
I did the text-stretching thing with hovercards, but shaners will not approve
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aaronpk
I do have a text/markdown content type for my storage, which runs the post through a markdown parser to output HTML
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aaronpk
but plaintext notes should remain plaintext notes
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@jeffreycwitt
@benwbrum are you in New York? we should chat about how FTP could use webmentions to share transcriptions
(twitter.com/_/status/730486533606789120)
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Jeena
I'm just saying that HTML is very nice to all people, independently of their abilities/disabilities, and if you serve it as text/html then it should be HTML not plain/text
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aaronpk
i guess that's what <pre> is for
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aaronpk
wonder if i can style a <pre> tag to make it look like normal html text
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Jeena
you should be
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Zegnat
aaronpk, no reason you can’t. It takes all expected font styles, that I know for sure.
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Loqi
I agree
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aaronpk
so... <pre class="p-content"> might be the recommended solution then?
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Jeena
sounds good to me
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Jeena
even though it will give us horizontal scrollbars in woodwind
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KevinMarks
so http://svgur.com/s/5i didn't specify a font - I'm seeing different things on phone and desktop
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Zegnat
Would be interesting to see if you can change white-space for PRE. But I guess even that would be possible.
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Jeena
and in all comments
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aaronpk
i think i will render comments as html
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aaronpk
because i am sanitizing the HTML if it's there, and then can autolink URLs if the comment was plaintext
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Zegnat
KevinMarks, if you have a second, could you update the faulty Twitter link for my name on http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebcampdusseldorfdemos2016.html ?
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Loqi
IndieWebCamp Düsseldorf Demos 2016-05-08
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: there's a font definition in there, you just may not have the font on your system
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Jeena
for convinience you could still do what Zegnat said about \r\n to <br> and hide them with CSS or what it was
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Zegnat
I am sorry I wasn’t live-scribing my own demo ;) I am Martijn van der Ven, http://vanderven.se/martijn/, or @martijnvdven on Twitter
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Loqi
Martijn van der Ven
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Zegnat
Jeena, that will probably still have some edgecases that I am missing. E.g. what to do with BR BR sequences and so on. That is why displaying plaintext as plaintext (PRE) is probably the only real solution.
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Zegnat
KevinMarks, sure, I will make a pull request! Did not realise that was an option
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snarfed
i know there's been some angst about http://www.decentralizedweb.net/ here, but i might consider going. i can represent indieweb, give a lightning talk, etc if we want
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snarfed
plus the second day is free, which avoids the $75 complaint. http://www.decentralizedweb.net/schedule/
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KevinMarks
hm, probably noterlive generation bug
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snarfed
if anyone else is interested in going to the decentralized web thing, june 8-9 in SF, let me know!
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aaronpk
I know sandro from the w3c social web group wants to go
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[benatwork]
Genuinely wish I could.
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@kevinmarks
@jeffubois @tantek would you be interested in speakers on #indieweb?
(twitter.com/_/status/728245999798378496)
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KevinMarks
I can email brewster/jeff and ask more formally
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aaronpk
looks like they don't have their speaker lineup set yet, would be awesome if someone gave a talk on the first day!
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snarfed1
the speaker lineup on http://www.decentralizedweb.net/people/ looks pretty intimidating
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snarfed1
i'd probably start with just proposing a lightning talk on day 2 :P
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aaronpk
oh i was looking at the schedule page which said "The Summit schedule will be announced soon."
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snarfed1
right
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aaronpk
nah don't be intimidated by big names :)
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snarfed1
fair!
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snarfed1
KevinMarks: definitely feel free to ping them! and/or come up! i'd happily join you
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KevinMarks
Vint, Cory and Brewster are all good speakers, but I've been on stage wiht them before
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KevinMarks
17 organizers, 3 speakers is a bit odd
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snarfed
maybe more of a summit than conference, esp the first day
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snarfed
"two-day event for high level discussions among leaders"
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aaronpk
see that is the kind of sentence that makes me not want to go
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KevinMarks
if it said "thought leaders"
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Jeena
The work on my website is much more structured since I started explicitly adding issues to a list where I can go and look what I can do next https://github.com/jeena/jeena.net/issues
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snarfed
tries to keep an open mind
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aaronpk
tries too, but it's hard with stuff like that
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KevinMarks
that would be offputting, but those 3 are good people who have actually built things
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snarfed
same with internet archive the org
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snarfed
good faith and all
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KevinMarks
hm, should I go to internet archive lunch on friday and talk to them?
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aaronpk
probably
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KevinMarks
ah, view source on http://svgur.com/i/5i and I see Myriad font with no fallback and no webfont link
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snarfed
KevinMarks: do it! and let us know what they say
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: yeah that SVG came out of illustrator, with some minor modifications (I added the css block, it used to be all inline)
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KevinMarks
oh wow, thanks Zegnat - I was still misreading the ij
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Zegnat
It happens. Not everyone at IWC tuned in to it quickly either. It’s not a foreign-friendly name
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GWG
Afternoon
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Zegnat
Mart\u0133n - if that helps, KevinMarks ;)
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KevinMarks
I thought that was a disputed character, as it's really a kern pair
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KevinMarks
though if ffl can vave a ligature, why not ij
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KevinMarks
oh right it was ÿ that was the bogus one
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Zegnat
I never dispute it as a letter. When I was four I had to learn the alphabet with the IJ between X and Z. It used to be a Scrabble tile. It is always capitalised together in names (IJsselmeer). Etc.
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KevinMarks
whereas ij is the real ligature
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KevinMarks
right. it was putting ÿ in as \uff that was the mistake
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Zegnat
But it is a little weird. I think these days Y has replaced IJ in the alphabet at Dutch schools. Standardising towards the English-Latin alphabet.
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KevinMarks
because early fonts had a ij that looked like a y umlaut
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Zegnat
This is basically how I remember learning the alphabet: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Dutch_handwriting_sample.png
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KevinMarks
ah, and in handwriting it does look like ÿ
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Zegnat
Yes. In handwriting it is always written as a connected ligature / single letter. That’s also how I would write my name.
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Zegnat
In fact, I would say my name has 6 letters, rather than the 7 you would type. But those things are constantly disputed even within the Netherlands
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Zegnat
tantek, yes
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Zegnat
Facebook is actually very good at unicode, so there I am Mart\u0133n. Very funny when people write my name in the search bar and when they hit “marti” I disappear from the results ;)
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tantek.com
edited /IIIF (+388) "sessions, articles, see also"
(view diff)
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Zegnat
time for sleep. I should finish my writeup for the demo page combining KevinMarks’ and my notes on the wiki tomorrow.
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Zegnat
Have a good one, all!
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tantek
aaronpk: I think webmention.rocks should send a inverse webmention (source/target swapped) for any success (where it shows a result on a test page), just to see if the source fails to handle it and adds an errant comment. >:D
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tantek
good night Zegnat!
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Loqi
night night
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aaronpk
I could add one test that does that. I thought we had settled on that not being best practice for sending tho
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tantek
"not being best practice" != don't test
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tantek
there had been a straw proposal to use it (once) as a way to of notifying "response accepted"
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tantek
which seems reasonable (doesn't have the geometric explosion problem that other proposals did/do)
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tantek
I figure since gRegorLove went to the trouble of fixing his implementation, we should add that to encourage more of the same
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tantek
in other words, adding it by default to webmention.rocks passing results will cause people to write the tiny bit of defensive code necessary for this, and thus strengthen webmention implementations by default
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aaronpk
last time I had an idea like that, you had advocated against it since people will be looking at webmention.rocks as a guide on what to do when sending webmentions
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tantek
aaronpk: I changed my mind since getting defensive implementations of this has value in terms of this past week's discussions.
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tantek
The more robust we can cause webmention implementations to be by default, the greater the chance of webmention being higher fidelity in practice, and thus scale more across sites / adoption etc.
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tantek
wonders if we could cause pingback loops with existing pingback implementations
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tantek
what is person-tag-of?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "person-tag-of" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10LE
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loqi.me
created /person-tag-of (+36) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1463000140411 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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loqi.me
created /person-tag-reply (+39) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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[shaners]
tantek: do you remember the concentric circles thing that indie mark is based on?
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Loqi
[Kevin Marks] http://www.recode.net/2016/5/9/11636082/walt-mossberg-code-conference-preview-recode-relaunch “Well, I think it's dangerous. I'll tell you why. And you can't ignore it. And Vox, being a forward-looking company, is not ignoring it, but here's the th...
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tantek.com
edited /area-tag (+809) "/* person tag as area tag */ move more brainstorming / code examples from /photo to here"
(view diff)
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Loqi
Spread Microformats
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[shaners]
wrong channel
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tantek
yeah!
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tantek
ok photo posseing is no longer just brainstorming, but rather definitely in practice
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@jgmac1106
Can someone explain this to a norm? Is the W3c really making DRM into a standard? https://boingboing.net/2016/05/11/save-firefox-the-w3cs-plan.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/730510985132396544)
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KevinMarks
hm, that buried the lede "First of all, you have to devote a team of developers to meeting whatever it is, the standards or the platform for Facebook, a separate one for Apple, a separate one for Snapchat, soon Google has one."
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tantek
what is a norm?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "norm" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10LH
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KartikPrabhu
wikipedia says" a norm is a function that assigns a strictly positive length or size to each vector in a vector space—save for the zero vector, which is assigned a length of zero"
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tantek
thank you wikipedia for being so precise and jargony :P
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KevinMarks
norm in context there meant muggle
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KevinMarks
aaronpk: so, you can use text-anchor="end" to right align the text in the names in a font-indpendent way
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KevinMarks
you need to give the co-ordinate of the endpoint
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KevinMarks
if you set textLength to a measured length, you can make it match evenif the font is substituted
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aaronpk
i'm not worried about font substitution. this will only be rendered on a computer that has the font installed
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KevinMarks
lengthAdjust can be made to squish the text to fit
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tantek
KevinMarks: muggle is a bit derogative, hoping we can do better than that
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KevinMarks
hm, layman?
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KevinMarks
awkwardly gendered
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KevinMarks
presumably Myriad would do that well
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Loqi
textlength on the tspan
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Loqi
text in boxes
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KevinMarks
Indieweb pokes out fo the yellow box on the 30 one but not the 3a one, because there is a textLength and lengthAdjust s
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KevinMarks
but depending on browser the Indieweb text will be condensed or expanded
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aaronpk
they look almost the same to me, the text doesn't extend past the box in either
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tantek
so much /photo updating
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tantek
finds his first photo auto-POSSEd to Flickr
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tantek.com
edited /photo (+736) "summary tagging section after How for all the ways people are tagging photos (both IndieWeb in use, and research from silo UX), noted my person-tag POSSEing since, move area-tag brainstorming to separate page"
(view diff)
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tantek
phew that was a bunch of cleanup+updating
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tantek
forgets how he fell down that rabbithole
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tantek
oh I remember now, IIIF
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tantek
and documenting our photo tagging ("annotations") that we've both implemented and brainstormed to date
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tantek
so I could get anarchivist's feedback / input on various methods
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tantek
so we could look at compat
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KevinMarks
hm, posting pix to slack is not mirrored
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tantek
anarchivist: here is the summary of all the ways we're tagging/annotating photos on the IndieWeb, both implemented, and research/brainstormed (could be implemented) https://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Tagging
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tantek
KevinMarks: no idea what you mean by that
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KevinMarks
I posted screenshots tot he slack channel, but the irc bot doesn't link them
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aaronpk
they don't come through as messages for some reason
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aaronpk
it just occurred to me that i can use flickstagram as a test bed for applying for permissions for ownyourgram
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aaronpk
they do the same thing except flickstagram copies your instagram photos to flickr but ownyourgram copies them to your website
KartikPrabhu and mlncn joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /photo_brainstorming () "(-778) /* People Tagging */ moved this brainstorm to its own page"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /photo_brainstorming () "(-729) /* POSSE */ delete POSSE brainstorming that's now part of /photo actual behavior / how to"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /photo (+66) "/* POSSEing */ delete old Twitter API method, cite Bridgy Publish issue for support implemented"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /photo (+73) "/* Tagging */ IIIF for more research"
(view diff)
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tantek
so much updating to do
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tantek.com
edited /Planning (+189) "/* Brighton UK */ vote on a few more dates"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /next-iwc (-12) "IndieWeb Summit is next!"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+4) "IndieWeb Summit is next!"
(view diff)
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tantek
waits for the header to update
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tantek.com
edited /Events (-4) "move Düsseldorf to past"
(view diff)