#indiewebcamp 2016-06-27

2016-06-27 UTC
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bear can someone point me to an example of what a /micropub?q=syndicate-to return looks like?
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bear oh, it moved from the wiki to the micropub spec - found it
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp'ers
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aaronpk good evening
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aaronpk Loqi is learning new tricks
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GWG Roll over?
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GWG Sit?
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tantek I'm capturing a rough edited transcript from State of the IndieWeb and noticing just how many informalisms I apparently use with an unpracticed talk
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GWG Informalisms?
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tantek so, this is pretty sweet
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tantek "pretty awesome". etc.
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aaronpk heh, is that good or bad?
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tantek it can be good for small group comradery, but less good for mass audience broadcast
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tantek Hmm, I'm speaking too fast to type
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tantek Now I have no idea how KevinMarks is able to live tweet like he is
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tantek even just taking notes from the words is hard, even having been the person who said them in the first place!
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Ruxton level up that typing speed ;) when typing tutor programs were annoying me in high school (a long time ago) I used to drill by typing out song lyrics from my headphones
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tantek I'm a decent typist, or at least touch typist from reading. listening then typing is something else, song lyrics are an interesting idea. talking a bit faster than any song lyrics though ;)
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@kevinmarks @dunndunndunn can you write it up at http://indiewebcamp.com please? (bonus points for passing indiewebify.me tests) (twitter.com/_/status/747257146069286917)
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Ruxton typing while people talk is a whole new skill, because people inevitably pause and get faster. The biggest trick is just accepting stupid mistakes and coming back to clean up when they stop talking.
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tantek hmm - I wonder what generation that tweet thread applies to ("activist mates")
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tantek Ruxton, oddly enough, I'm also pretty good at "minute taking" during W3C standards meetings. Perhaps because the vocabulary/concepts are more constrained.
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tantek so it's particularly odd to me that I'm finding it challenging to note-take myself after the fact!
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tantek sigh, used the "you guys" expression I'm really trying to rid myself of
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[kevinmarks] I paraphrase, because spoken transcripts look weird
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tantek your paraphrasing always seems sensible
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[kevinmarks] This is partly to fit tweet length, partly because I am not a good enough typist to do full transcript, and also because paraphrasing is better
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[kevinmarks] There is an old journalism legend of a politician claiming that he wasn't being accurately quoted
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[kevinmarks] So they transcribed him verbatim with the ums and repetition for a bit until he backed down
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tantek lol
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tantek the other trick is to learn to speak in a way which is directly / literally quotable
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[kevinmarks] I try to get the sense accurately rather than transcribe
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tantek helps to practice a talk multiple times in order to do that
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[kevinmarks] Which can mean omitting a lot of waffle
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tantek probably also why lots of politicians read from teleprompters
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tantek mmmmmm waffles
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[kevinmarks] Cory was hard because he does speak in quotable chunks
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tantek indeed, he's figured that out and is a very well practiced speaker
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[kevinmarks] Timbl is hard because he digresses at speed, so needs paraphrasing
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tantek so true, he does tend to tangent and deep end a bit at times
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[kevinmarks] Cory is also a great writer, so is very practiced at cadence and nuance, so not as compressible
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[kevinmarks] Someone transcribed his talk, and that is better than my notes
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[kevinmarks] (also I was exhausted by day 3 - getting to the archive for 9 am is hard from SJ)
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tantek haha I'm so socal and I don't even know it when I'm speaking. hilarious
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tantek kevinmarks next time you have to do that let's find you a guest room spot in SF ;)
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[kevinmarks] Good call. Biking from yours would save me 100 mins cycling and 150 mins of train per day
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tantek goodness
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tantek drat another "you guys". giving myself demerits for that.
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GWG tantek: Double points for youse guys.
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[kevinmarks] If you want to do a full transcript, playback audio only at 0.75 or 0.5 speed
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Ruxton ;)
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Ruxton and get one of those foot rewind/ffwd pedals
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Ruxton ;)
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[kevinmarks] I've seen people do it real-time - suw can; a few others
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tantek right now just using the spacebar pause thing on a bluetooth keyboard
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tantek kinda want a "rewind 30s button"
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[kevinmarks] But they describe it as a trance state - they don't recall it afterwards
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Ruxton I use my midi food board, play/pause, rewind 5s, ffwd 5s, bound to winamp
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Ruxton *foot
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tantek right, I'm trying to be conscious of what I'm saying
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[kevinmarks] You know about hullfishing
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tantek It's also interesting comparing my text notes that I spoke from (they're on the wiki already) to what I said.
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Ruxton is that a new kind of webaction? >:P
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[kevinmarks] This is a transcription technique named after Steve Hullfish
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[kevinmarks] Where you recite what the speaker is saying into a speech recognition system trained on your voice
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Ruxton that's a really good idea
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tantek is up to about 11ish minutes in (of ~27:44)
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@kunimiya 昨日の更新ですが、W3Cで勧告候補になっているWebmentionについてブログ記事を書きました。 / Webmention ：HTML5時代のトラックバック http://www.kunimiya.info/blog/2016/06/26/introduction-to-webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/747273348510449669)
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tantek ^^^ cool Japanese overview of /webmention
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aaronpk strawpoll: is the s/foo/bar/ feature of Loqi useful or annoying?
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[shurcool] doesn't know what its s/foo/bar/ feature is...
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aaronpk slack has it built in
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aaronpk but watch thiss
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aaronpk s/thiss/this
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: but watch this
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Ruxton annoying :+1:
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[shurcool] ah lol. Nice. yeah, I don't mind. but I also use/prefer Slack.
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KartikPrabhu useful + 1
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[shurcool] Has anyone worked on implementing Google Analytics hit tracking on backend rather than frontend?
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Ruxton [shurcool]: a few times
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Ruxton tracked API usage through it
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[shurcool] How was your experience, and do you think it'd be viable to replace frontend tracking? Are there are really major features missing?
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[shurcool] I'm considering learning how to do it and doing it, because I have a few frontend pages where it's kinda tricky/annoying to add the GA script, and if I did it on backend, it'd be done in one place and forever work for all pages.
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[shurcool] I suspect things like browser/user agent detection would take a hit, and probably the real-time info?
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Ruxton yeah I wouldn't recommend it for regular hit tracking
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Ruxton it was prety much the only way to track the api access reliably
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Ruxton ..into Google Analytics where everything else was..
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[shurcool] can you elaborate why you wouldn't recommend it please?
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Ruxton it's more work than it's worth, you can throw JS on a page and be tracking most things in a few minutes
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Ruxton I guess it's no more or less reliable though
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Ruxton I just figure, why put it in the work if the outcome is the same
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KartikPrabhu what is analytics?
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Loqi analytics needs a definition by someone who understands what it is and cares about it https://indiewebcamp.com/analytics
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KartikPrabhu Ruxton [shurcool] please add your thought on analytics to that page ^
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[shurcool] Ruxton: The advantage of doing it on backend is that you can do it once, for your server, and all served pages will be tracked. Otherwise you need to not forget to throw it into _every_ html you serve.
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KevinMarks__ I find loqi replace useful
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KevinMarks__ The w3c thing of correcting each others typos is a bit trickier
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KevinMarks__ If loqi replace updated the html archive that would be interesting
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aaronpk Eh I'm not a big fan of rewriting history like that
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aaronpk the w3c feature is because the final output is minutes, not chat transcripts, so I don't think that applies here
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KartikPrabhu i agree. Loqi replace should not rewrite the archive but should be more like "edits" like it is now
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Loqi grins profusely
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[kevinmarks] Fair. Maybe the previous version and the edit post can get the "small type" styling in the html record
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aaronpk that sounds hard :) i'm going to think about that later
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bear I don't see what i'm doing wrong that is keeping quill from seeing my syndicate-to response
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aaronpk are you trying with the "refresh" button on quill?
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bear yes
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bear https://bear.im/micropub?q=syndicate-to is returning Content-Type application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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bear oops - may be a typo ...
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bear figures I needed to rubber-duck it
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aaronpk it looks like quill is sending an Accept: application/json header now https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/blob/master/lib/helpers.php#L180
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bear hmm, still not listing it
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aaronpk well here's the code it's using to parse the response https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/blob/master/lib/helpers.php#L210
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bear yea, this could very well be that I am not building the array response properly
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bear flask doesn't do x-www-form-urlencoded as a GET response normally
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aaronpk yeah quill is not very helpful in debugging that part of things
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bear this is the value i'm returning: syndicate-to[]=indieweb.chat/distribute
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aaronpk oh that's quite different
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aaronpk it looks for this now http://micropub.net/draft/#syndication-targets
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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bear I don't think quill is sending application/json - or at least i'm not detecting it
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bear ah - duh - I had *that* typo'd
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bear oh - I was following the example that quill had
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bear still not working :/
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tantek so many "like"s 😂
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tantek youguys--
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Loqi youguys has 0 karma
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tantek (!!!)
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tantek so close. got to the point where I played the SWAT0 demo
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tantek watching a video of a video
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bear :)
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bear hmm, when I send Accept: application/json I get a result that looks like the spec, but quill still doesn't see it
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bear odd, the initial GET from quill has no query parameters
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tantek raw transcript done. I'm thinking of just putting it on the wiki in that form (and editing later for a blog post)
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tantek can't help but hear my own encouragement to "just make something and iterate" :P
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bear :)
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+32) "/* 2016 */ speakers" (view diff)
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Ruxton Transcripts actually lead into something I've been meditating on for a while, the best way to mark up lyrics
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Ruxton I've been building WEBVTT's of my albums lyrics to go with audio tracks, but i feel like there's a missing link between user presentable lyrics alongside a h-product all marked up together
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Ruxton and that missing link is a way to represent the timing of the lyrics (or transcript) in a post.
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tantek.com edited /2016/state-of-indieweb (+20014) "add video and add transcript I just wrote up from watching the video" (view diff)
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tantek Ruxton, sounds like a karaoke format ;)
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tantek I could see a few people here be interested in that
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Ruxton oh it totally is a karaoke format too
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cweiske regarding lyrics formats - i'm currently researching my options for embedding lyrics in .ogg, here are my notes: http://p.cweiske.de/351
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Ruxton that was the first thing I noticed doing WebVTT "Oh.. this is just karaoke"
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Ruxton cweiske: bandcamp embedds lyrics in all formats that support it, if they're supplied. you might want to look at what they're doing to
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Ruxton they don't do timings though, just flat lyrics
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cweiske unsynced then
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Ruxton I made some patches in Firefox to try get WebVTT on Audio working
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Ruxton but its still a bit buggered
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cweiske Ruxton, do you have bandcamp? could you download an .ogg file with lyrics there for me to examine?
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Ruxton sure, one moment i'll see if I can find one
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Ruxton cweiske: incoming DM with download link
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[kevinmarks] Quicktime text track format was pretty simple
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cweiske LRC is simple
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@codebear thinking about how to do distributed chat using #indieweb concepts without a *required* central hub -- https://bear.im/bearlog/2016/179/thoughts-on-a-distributed-indieweb-chat (twitter.com/_/status/747335497022734337)
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Ruxton LRC is good, but they're all non-web things.. Essentially I want to microformat LRC
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@rasmusvuori You can spot me wearing an #IndieWebCamp T-shirt. (@ ICANN56) https://www.swarmapp.com/c/cHhxU15KQw5 (twitter.com/_/status/747357276332253184)
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@rasmusvuori Any #IndieWebCamp people currently here at #ICANN56 in Helsinki? (twitter.com/_/status/747361012396003328)
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GWG Morning
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petermolnar morning GWG
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GWG Hello, petermolnar
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pfefferle good morning
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Loqi pfefferle: GWG left you a message on 6/22 at 8:15am: Any news on that PR? It has a bug fix for a non-static method that someone on the stable release in wordpress.org was asking about. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-22/line/1466608556078
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pfefferle !tell GWG oh, you are right, will do that asap!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG pfefferle, if the rest of it is too big to review right now, if you could manually adjust the other issue.
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Loqi GWG: pfefferle left you a message 1 minute ago: oh, you are right, will do that asap! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-27/line/1467028548984
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GWG Also, hello pfefferle.
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pfefferle hey GWG, no it is not about complexity it is still a time problem ;)
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pfefferle but you are right I should at least push the fix
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GWG I worry about new people uninstalling
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GWG pfefferle, with the rest of it, you know that I am willing to wait. And that I will be sending you another PR as soon as this one is merged.
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG I am enthusiastic, what can I say?
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GWG I could switch over to Semantic Linkbacks PRs for a bit.
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pfefferle GWG :)
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pfefferle GWG I think we should start using composer for the mf2 library
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GWG pfefferle, I had a PR for that. Except for the pre 5.4 issue
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GWG It is fine.
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GWG I may file the PR for moving linkback_fix to run on preprocess_comment.
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pfefferle GWG is this also working for trackbacks and pingbacks?
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GWG pfefferle, yes. They all call that filter.
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GWG For new comments at least.
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pfefferle GWG ok, nice
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GWG edit_comment is getting commentdata passed to it in 4
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GWG .6
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GWG I got that committed
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GWG Only patch I got them to.
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petermolnar any ideas how to mark up h-geo in github-flavoured markdown?
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@mcepl @t I am so glad that #indieweb posting of photos to Twitter works for you, but could you please stop? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/747429627858141189)
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@jkphl Thinking about having a little BBQ @ our next Homebrew Website Club http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club Who'd be in, who could bring what, who's veggie? (twitter.com/_/status/747433729145077760)
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@IndieWebCampDE Beim nächsten Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg am 6. Juli wird gegrillt http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club Wer ist dabei, bringt was mit, ist Vegetarier? (twitter.com/_/status/747437275479408640)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (-14) "/* TODO: add remote hcard fetching to todo" (view diff)
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[shaners] gregorlove++ thanks for testing h-card-as-a-service and creating https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/gregorlove.com
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Loqi gregorlove has 72 karma
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[shaners] aaronpk++ thanks for adding your feedback to the wiki page for it.
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Loqi aaronpk has 169 karma
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[shaners] Kylewm kevinmarks: h-card-as-a-service *will* import an h-card from your entered domain. But it's not yet. Hopefully it will today.
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[shaners] It still has a form that you could've typed your info into though.
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ePirat what is this karma stuff?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this karma stuff" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Nx
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KartikPrabhu third party script dangers: https://css-tricks.com/potential-dangers-of-third-party-javascript/
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Loqi The following is a guest post by Yaphi Berhanu, who helps people learn JavaScript. Yaphi comes heading a warning: you should know what you'r...
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KartikPrabhu ePirat: it is imaginary internet points with no real consequences
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tantek oh you think that now
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KartikPrabhu :P
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aaronpk When Loqi becomes sentient the karma points may become significant
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Loqi yo
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KartikPrabhu too bad they cap off at 999 then :P
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: and tantek would be so karma rich by now
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ben_thatmustbeme did tantek roll over too?
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tantek not AFAIK
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought only aaronpk did
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KartikPrabhu !karma tantek
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tantek we have no idea how many times aaronpk has rolled over
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Loqi tantek has 296 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme to be fair, loqi is on several other chats that all seem to share karma
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Loqi yeah!
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tantek LOL: https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/747429627858141189
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@mcepl @t I am so glad that #indieweb posting of photos to Twitter works for you, but could you please stop? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/747429627858141189)
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tantek I am trying to come up with a snarky funny but polite response
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ben_thatmustbeme i still want to see a list of all the karma loqi has for things
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ben_thatmustbeme !karma blue
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Loqi blue has 1 karma
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tantek !karma red
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Loqi red has 1 karma
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tantek !karma green
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Loqi green has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme purple++
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Loqi purple has 1 karma
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tantek Loqi, green or red?
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Loqi let me think about that for a minute
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Loqi red
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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tantek !fail
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Loqi fails
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tantek >:D
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ben_thatmustbeme Loqi, an immovable object or an unstoppable force?
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Loqi an immovable object
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KartikPrabhu the photo posting thing has nothing to do with indieweb. People post photos to twitter directly in large volumes too
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KartikPrabhu it seems tantek has a good indieweb photo posting UI set up
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aaronpk this sounds like a good argument for better readers
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no comment ;)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes! definitely
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aaronpk why should tantek stop posting photos to twitter just cause one person doesn't want to see that many photos
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: readers could filter by post types
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KartikPrabhu that is also one reason I have separate Articles and Notes feeds
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KartikPrabhu since Notes have higher posting frequency
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Loqi [indieweb] "@mcepl mass #indieweb Paris photo posting will continue until morale improves or #Brexit is undone or both. Or I run out. ;)" http://tantek.com/2016/179/t4/
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@t @mcepl mass #indieweb Paris photo posting will continue until morale improves or #Brexit is undone or both. Or I run out. ;) (ttk.me t4hz4) (twitter.com/_/status/747463480911925248)
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KartikPrabhu lol
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tantek \m/
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aaronpk 👍
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: yeah i publish many different feeds for similar reasons, so you can subscribe to only my sleep data if you wanted to. but readers should be smarter as well
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KartikPrabhu agreed!
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[shaners] Tantek: my go to response to those kinds of messages from people who think I'm quoteunquote spamming their feed: the unfollow button is right there.
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tantek interesting, I just discovered that Twitter's permalink sequential nav arrows *skip* @-replies, even when viewing your own permalinks
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tantek what is sequential navigation
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sequential navigation" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ny
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is navigation
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Loqi Navigation refers to the UI, UX and markup allowing people to move around a website https://indiewebcamp.com/navigation
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Loqi [indieweb] "A slew of startups is trying to decentralise the online world" by Brian https://btc.icymi.email/if-decentralisation-is-now-making-a-comeback-it-is-largely-because-of-the-rise-of-bitcoin-via-mareikeonline/
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kylewm tantek: is that a real life friend complaining about you posting photos?
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kylewm Policing other people's Twitter volume feels so 2008
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aaronpk lol
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tantek.com edited /navigation (+985) "options for sequential nav, note Silo Sequential Examples, Twitter, skips @-replies" (view diff)
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aaronpk that navigation makes sense
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aaronpk i would implement it more like flickr though
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aaronpk since my posts can be in multiple collections, the navigation would be within the collection that you came to it from
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[dshanske] Weechat is annoying me on mobile. Going to try Slack as my mobile gateway for a bit.
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[dshanske] shaners, enjoying the idea of h-card as a service
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[shaners] gwg: glad to hear. I’ve got a particular vision for what it’ll be, but I’d like to hear what other’s are thinking about it too. Care to brain dump your thoughts about it to the wiki?
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snarfed1 fwiw tantek i'm really enjoying your paris photo series
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snarfed great subjects, great framing, great editing (i'm guessing :P)
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[dshanske] Won't be home till late, but will try tonight.
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tantek kylewm: no I don't think I know that person.
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snarfed if the volume was always this high, i probably wouldn't have you in the short list i actually read, to shaners's point...but occasional bursts can work well
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[kevinmarks] Also, a chance to mention Kyle's twitter miter
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[shaners] Does anyone have their location on their wiki profile page?
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aaronpk I don't, but I have it on my website
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aaronpk oops i actually don't anymore. it was on my last site design though and i must have forgotten to carry that over.
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adactio.com edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (-14) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club (+16) "/* Brighton */" (view diff)
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tantek who did the temporary automatic twitter mute tool? was that kylewm re: kevinmarks?
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aaronpk heh https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/747473273185779712
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@mcepl @t OK, then I have to unfollow. Bye bye! (twitter.com/_/status/747473273185779712)
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sknebel tantek: yes, https://quiettime.xyz/ by kylewm
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tantek sknebel++ thank you!
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Loqi sknebel has 9 karma
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aaronpk how does that wok?
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aaronpk work?
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aaronpk ohh it uses twitter's mute function. didn't even know about that lol.
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tantek what is mute
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Loqi mute is the ability to hide posts in your reader from specific publishers https://indiewebcamp.com/mute
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aaronpk wow i totally missed that whole thing
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tantek aaronpk: since 2014! https://indiewebcamp.com/mute#Silo_Examples
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aaronparecki.com edited /mute (+58) "add link to twitter docs" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /mute (+193) "subheads, Quiet Time" (view diff)
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tantek https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/747473273185779712 and https://twitter.com/t/status/747479565832855552
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@mcepl @t OK, then I have to unfollow. Bye bye! (twitter.com/_/status/747473273185779712)
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tantek Loqi, only one URL?
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Loqi yo
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tantek https://twitter.com/t/status/747479565832855552
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@t @mcepl no problem! You could also "Mute", or temporarily mute with https://quiettime.xyz/ by @kylewmahan. Cheers! (ttk.me t4hz9) (twitter.com/_/status/747479565832855552)
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kylewm Stop. Don't. Come back.
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tantek hey do we have confirmations on all the HWC venues this week?
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (-15) "/* TODO: added location */" (view diff)
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tantek !tell Jeena Is HWC Göteborg a go for this week? Could you confirm location? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek thanks snarfed! yes, definitely editing down quite a bit ;) maybe 1 of every 10 photos at most. and that's *after* I deleted dupes and kept the "best" of each subject/view/framing
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aaronpk wonders if this is making tantek interested in supporting photo album/collection posts
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tantek re: occasional bursts, I'm trying a "post three in quick succession" approach
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tantek aaronpk: more like I'm leaning towards giving 0 f***s
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aaronpk haha
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tantek while everyone else is spamming Twitter with Brexit doom & gloom, I'm responding by posting more photos of happy things. so there Twitter. take that!
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snarfed1 tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 297 karma
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tantek considers looking for kittens in the wild to go photograph and mass post to Twitter
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tantek hey Superfeedr, what no wikimo update notification that HWC is on the docket for this week?
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aaronpk hmm @indiewebcat is slacking off on her tweets
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tantek aaronpk: indeed, what is @indiewebcat's opinion of Brexit?
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aaronpk probably "prrmrow"
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tantek maybe you can a/b test with British vs. European cat food?
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aaronpk lol!
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aaronpk hmm i want all of indiewebcat's instagram photos automatically syndicated to twitter. wonder how i should hook that up.
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tantek Bridgy Publish!
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aaronpk yeah it's using bridgy publish or silo.pub already, but i need to tell it to do that at some point in the ownyourgram -> micropub flow
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aaronpk could be a setting in p3k, e.g. "all micropub requests from client_id=x add syndicate-to=y"
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tantek POSSE all public posts.
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tantek or something like that
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aaronpk or it could be a setting in ownyourgram
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aaronpk so that ownyourgram adds the "syndicate-to" property when it makes the micropub request
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gRegorLove Looks like more one-letter prefix utility classes coming to Bootstrap: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/utilities/#spacing
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[shaners] :disappointed:
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aaronpk oh goes
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aaronpk gosh*
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aaronpk .p-a-3
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ben_thatmustbeme ugh
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tantek nice that they went through a proposal and public all for comments phase before making such decisions
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tantek great example of how *not* to do open source
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tantek public *call for comments
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tantek bootstrap--
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Loqi bootstrap has -5 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme bootstrap--
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Loqi bootstrap has -6 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme is tempted to file an issue
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues
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[shaners] do it
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gRegorLove Good luck with that. :)
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aaronpk heh
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tantek and perhaps it is time to create a simpler CSS "framework" (shudders) to replace bootstrap
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aaronpk there are dozens already
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aaronpk people will still use bootstrap
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gRegorLove I was about to post that link if someone wanted to, to beat someone to suggesting *I* file an issue. Haha
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gRegorLove There's an xkcd for this.
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aaronpk !xkcd css framework
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: while you're at it: http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/449/ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/things_fall_apart.png
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Loqi When u- means style= 2016-05-24
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tantek what does that have to do with CSS?
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gRegorLove On the plus site, I have a PR open for php-mf2 that skips the camelCase and numbers in class names, so that will help.
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tantek "relationship" framework sounds more OO
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gRegorLove s/site/side/
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: On the plus side, I have a PR open for php-mf2 that skips the camelCase and numbers in class names, so that will help.
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/20185
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: the e.g. 'e looks broken
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tantek might want to also point out that microformats with these class names are already well established on 10s of thousands of sites
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks tantek, updated
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tantek (and have been doing it since 2009)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: also s/simple/plain
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tantek (hence p-)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: that was copy-pasta from http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#detailed_person_example
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Loqi microformats2
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tantek hehe I better check myself ;)_
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tantek thanks ben_thatmustbeme . fixed
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gRegorLove Before u-wreck u-rself.
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegorLove++ haha
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Loqi gRegorLove has 73 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme wakka wakka
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gRegorLove [shaners]: I have my location on my wiki profile, though not marked up with mf2 apparently.
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tantek adactio might have his on his h-card
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gRegorLove I can never remember the right mf2 properties for city/state.
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gRegorLove locality / region
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gRegorLove Now I have the mf2.
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[shaners] aaronpk++ for pin13.net
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Loqi aaronpk has 170 karma
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[shaners] does anyone have their timezone offset in their h-card on their site?
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[shaners] p-tz - timezone offset, e.g. <data class="p-tz" value="-0800">PST</data>
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[shaners] From: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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Loqi h-card
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tantek I thought a previous version of aaronpk's site did
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[dshanske] I need to redo my h-card widget
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[dshanske] I am not happy with the style.
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tantek style is hard
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[dshanske] Well, I know what you would respond to the abstract question "what does a h-card look like"
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aaronpk yes my old site did
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aaronpk my new site shows the local time, i should make it include the timezone offset too
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[shaners] anyone using nicknames on their h-card?
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[shaners] p-nickname - nickname/alias/handle
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aaronpk i would if anything consumed it ;-)
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tantek aaronpk - there's also the display use-case. like you clearly found a use-case for displaying your battery level
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aaronpk yea but i don't need to mark it up just to show it
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[dshanske] shaners, check out ben_thatmustbeme's h-card, I seem to recall he had some interesting stuff
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ben_thatmustbeme did I?
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[shaners] aaronpk: please add your nickname/s. it’ll help me test h-card-as-a-service.
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aaronpk this page has more info https://aaronparecki.com/contact/
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, my contact page
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ben_thatmustbeme that has more info
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aaronpk not marked up yet, but has all that info
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tantek aaronpk you also show *your* current time in your header right next to the battery
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tantek awww: <span class="time item">12:09pm</span>
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tantek what no <time> element?
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tantek then you could put the tz offset in the datetime attr
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tantek then we would have a markup challenge, since there's currently no way of extracting *only* the tz
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aaronpk ah yeah
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tantek from a dt
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[shaners] ben_thatmustbeme: Do you know that you don’t have h-card properties on some of links? tel, email, urls
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[dshanske] ben_thatmustbeme, weren't you his lordship?
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bear [shaners] - I just added p-tz and p-nickname to my h-card
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tantek is flipping through aaronpk's recent slides
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[shaners] thanks bear
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[dshanske] tantek, I do want to discuss NYC2.
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ben_thatmustbeme [shaners]: the URLs are not supposed to have mf2 on them, its not u-url as those are not the canonical me, the tel, email, etc, i could put
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[dshanske] I want to do some sort of building blocks session before the open sessions.
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tantek dshanske I think that's a good idea
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tantek want to edit the schedule accordingly?
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[dshanske] I started to.
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[dshanske] I am trying to figure out how to structure that
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[shaners] ben_thatmustbeme: makes sense
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tantek nice slides aaronpk!
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tantek will the video be posted, or was there an etherpad, IRC chat (logs) ?
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aaronpk draft video is alredy online
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aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-22-standardizing-the-social-web
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[shaners] ben_thatmustbeme: actually, I meant the “Elsewhere” links
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tantek was just going to ask :)
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bear [shaners] - of all the mf2 I have gathered from folks, no one has p-tz and a lot of folks use p-nickname
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aaronpk they weren't recording videos of the osbridge talks this year, only audio, so i set my phone in front of the projector and recorded it myself
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[shaners] kthx
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tantek aaronpk: worth adding to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-28#Discussion_Items just as an FYI for folks. well done.
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ben_thatmustbeme [shaners]: so did I, they have rel=me thats what they are supposed to have, they should not have u-url
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tantek they could
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tantek u-url just means this is *a* URL for me
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tantek if you want to specify canonical, you can use u-uid
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ben_thatmustbeme for me it means a url equivalent to this
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ben_thatmustbeme which they are not
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tantek I don't think any client assumes that
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[shaners] o_O
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tantek that smiley always cracks me up
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tantek maybe just the way Colloquy renders it
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: i think the opposite is true, very vew publish u-uid from what i have seen
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ben_thatmustbeme and the u-url is the u-uid
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ben_thatmustbeme but they never list u-uid
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tantek like I said, no consuming code I know of makes that assumption "is th"
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tantek s/is th/is the
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Loqi tantek meant to say: like I said, no consuming code I know of makes that assumption "is the"
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tantek not sure where you got that nuance?
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[shaners] ben_thatmustbeme: twitter.com/veganstraightedge is emphatically not a url equivalent of my personal website, but in my h-card, i include all of my elsewhere links as u-urls.
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ben_thatmustbeme http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat draft standards suitable for embedding data in ...
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ben_thatmustbeme for h-card u-url = home page
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Loqi h-card
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ben_thatmustbeme for h-entry u-url = permalink
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[shaners] It’s just another one of my MEs
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tantek yep
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[dshanske] Everything I am is me.
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ben_thatmustbeme it gets confusing since u-url is inconsistant between h-cards and h-entries then
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tantek GWG++ for that identity zen moment
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Loqi GWG has 169 karma
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: not inconsistent
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tantek in both cases you can optionally use u-uid as canonical if you really care to specify that much detail
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tantek otherwise you can't really make assumptions about uniqueness, canonicalness etc.
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tantek permalink just means it will work, it may redirect in the future
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KevinMarks_ why would bootstrap not use margin- and pad- for those prefixes
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aaronpk or ma- and pa-
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tantek aaronpk++ lol you should add that to the issue
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Loqi aaronpk has 171 karma
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[dshanske] Actually, I was quoting Sesame Street.
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tantek KevinMarks: I'm just waiting for bootstrap folks to suggest that everyone else should use a use-specific prefix like mf-
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tantek so we can counter with, well if you think that's a good idea, you go first with bs-*
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tantek but definitely *don't* suggest that first
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aaronpk lolol
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tantek keep that card in pocket ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: with regard to that, a permalink and another object on a different site, that is very inconsistant to me, not canonical, but still not consistant
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ben_thatmustbeme if i look up the u-url on an h-entry i expect to get the same object back
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tantek sure, and you could have it replicated on multiple sites, with multiple u-urls
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ben_thatmustbeme or a more specified one
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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tantek no uniqueness nor canonicality is implied
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KevinMarks_ having lots of u-url is no stranger than lots of rel="me"
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[dshanske] It just means you are distributed
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bear all of my h-card u-url are rel="me" (is that wrong?)
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ben_thatmustbeme thats different. if i put a u-url i expect to be able to find an mf2 object
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ben_thatmustbeme rel=me i don't
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KevinMarks_ that's odd
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ben_thatmustbeme s/mf2 object/mf2 object at that url/
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ben_thatmustbeme espeicially if there is no u-uid
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KevinMarks_ an h-card listing multiple URLs seems naturla to me
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aaronpk i was not aware of that semantic distinction
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ben_thatmustbeme realistically, there are 3 semantic things, 'url of this object' (u-uid), urls of other copies of this object, url of the canonical copy
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Zegnat But u-url just means “a URL associated with the current h-* that can be parsed using u-prefix rules” right? It does not state anything about the resource it is pointing to.
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Zegnat At least, that is how I always read it.
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KevinMarks_ how did you derive that assumption, ben? from time with salmentiosn etc?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_: not sure, that was always my assumption
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KevinMarks_ hm
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KevinMarks_ maybe I'm coming at this differnetly, btu that si what I have seen rels for
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KevinMarks_ rel="canonical" rel="alternate" rel="me"
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, so what are the u-* equivalents of that?
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KevinMarks_ implying those from class="u-url" is tricky
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ben_thatmustbeme i think i had them interpretted differently
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ben_thatmustbeme well it seems rel=canonical == u-uid?
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KevinMarks_ that seems reasonable
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, those don't really fit KevinMarks_ as rel=me only makes sense on cards, and in that case i would assume rel=alternate to be kinda the same
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KevinMarks_ no, rel=alternate is explictly 'another version of this'
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KevinMarks_ with possible other qualifiers (type, lang)
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ben_thatmustbeme i suppose the part that trips me up is, how do i distinguish between permalink of this copy vs permalink of the "original" copy?
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ben_thatmustbeme if u-url is just "any other version of this object" which is sort of both rel=alternate and rel=me
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if we should move this to #microformats
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if he should just get back to work
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KevinMarks_ in h-card it isn't 'other version of this object'
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ben_thatmustbeme but it is in h-entry?
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ben_thatmustbeme s/version/format / ?
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KevinMarks_ hm, now we have u-syndication maybe
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ben_thatmustbeme you can see how i got confused, this isn't all that clear once you start looking at the semantics of everything
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ben_thatmustbeme and given that most code i've written and seen doesn't even look for u-uid, but only u-url, and given h-entry lists u-url as the "permalink" it let to some false assuptions
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ben_thatmustbeme i mean, if i have multiple permalinks (some being shortlinks presumably) i should always get back the same thing from all of them right?
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ben_thatmustbeme talking about on an h-entry
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ben_thatmustbeme but if all rel=me's are supposed to have u-url, thats very different behaviour between h-entry and h-card
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KevinMarks_ I would think so, though if you link to a version in another format (amp? as2?)
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KevinMarks_ not sure how you would indicate that
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[shaners] Anyone know of anyone putting their bday in their h-card on their site?
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Zegnat I used to list my bday, but not since I redesigned. It is probably coming back soon-ish though.
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KevinMarks_ I do
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KevinMarks_ though it's in the h-card inside my h-feed
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_: would that be a permalink then? or just rel= alternate.
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ben_thatmustbeme permalink i would assume means "link to this exact copy that will persist"
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[shaners] kevinmarks: your parsed mfs have tantek and chris messina as top level h-cards on your site.
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[shaners] http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks_ known does it all with rels, not u-url http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fknown.kevinmarks.com%2F2016%2Fdwebsummit-i-hadnt-thought-of-ipv4-addresses-as-a-centralized&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks_ yeah, that's a very old xfn thing that I haven't touched in ages
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ben_thatmustbeme it uses u-url as well
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ben_thatmustbeme <a class="u-url url" href="http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/dwebsummit-i-hadnt-thought-of-ipv4-addresses-as-a-centralized" rel="permalink">
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Loqi Ruh roh
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KevinMarks_ right, I mean it only has a u-url for the permalink, not the alternatives
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ben_thatmustbeme ywa
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ben_thatmustbeme yes*
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ben_thatmustbeme which is correct for h-entry's
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ben_thatmustbeme as its supposed to be the permalink
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KevinMarks_ this is a case where jf2 is losing some thing compared to mf2 by dropping all the rels
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, but honestly, the rels don't make sense for h-entries as they are page scoped, not object scoped
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ben_thatmustbeme so as soon as you have more than on thing on a page, the rels are messed up
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ben_thatmustbeme and i'm going to stop on any of that before we start to go in any sort of a range-14 direction
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aaronpk y'all have totally lost me on this discussion as i suspect most others. maybe write up the specific problem on the wiki?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, sorry, we should have moved to #microformats at least
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[shaners] anyone know of any h-cards with p-note in them?
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gRegorLove [shaners]: I do. http://gregorlove.com/about/
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gRegorLove Has x-pronoun too, if you want more edge case stuff. :) A few of us have that.
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gRegorLove I need to get back to tweaking my /about
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aaronpk why is everyone spelling "possessive" with only 3 s'?
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gRegorLove And the whole "minimal h-card pointing to a more complete h-card"
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Hah. Copypasta, probably?
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aaronpk most of the examples i found spelled it "posessive"
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gRegorLove what is pronoun?
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Loqi A pronoun is a word that people often use to refer to other people or objects instead of their names; on the indieweb you can express which pronouns should be used to refer to you https://indiewebcamp.com/Pronoun
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[shaners] what is pronoun?
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Loqi A pronoun is a word that people often use to refer to other people or objects instead of their names https://indiewebcamp.com/Pronoun
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[shaners] Oh I see how Loqi does dfns
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gRegorLove Perhaps from here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns
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Loqi h-card Brainstorming
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gRegorLove [shaners]: Cuts off at the first period, unless you explicitly wrap in p-summary
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[shaners] gotcha
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aaronpk the microformats wiki has the correct spelling
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aaronpk i'm guessing someone typed it wrong, then someone else copied that example, and then it kept spreading from copypasta
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aaronpk ooh there is one spot on the mf2 wiki with the wrong spelling
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aaronpk citing a real world example :/
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gRegorLove Let's ask acegiak :)
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[shaners] gregorlove: thanks for the p-note example :slightly_smiling_face:
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aaronpk considers a slack-emoji-name-to-real-emoji library for Loqi
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gRegorLove fixed my spelling of "possessive"
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ben_thatmustbeme also fixes his spelling
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ben_thatmustbeme http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424234629842
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Loqi [acegiak] oh so p-pronoun-subject p-pronoun-object p-pronoun-posessive ?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-27/line/1445965201497
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Loqi [gRegorLove] Using p-x-pronoun-nominative, p-x-pronoun-oblique, p-x-pronoun-posessive
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ben_thatmustbeme those are the only instances on chat history
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ben_thatmustbeme well, now there will be a few more
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gRegorLove possessive possessive possessive
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gRegorLove Balance restored.
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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bear impressive
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe we should note the error on the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme and give other examlpes
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ben_thatmustbeme stop it now before we have another "referer" situation
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ben_thatmustbeme referrer vs referer
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bear its wrong on http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming#Pronouns
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Loqi h-card Brainstorming
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, thats where i'm saying we should add that
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gRegorLove I'm sure we can get acegiak to fix it on her site and then that in-the-wild example accordingly.
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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aaronparecki.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+126) (view diff)
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bear what is the pronoun set for male? him/his/his ?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pronoun set for male" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Nz
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gRegorLove he/him/his
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gRegorLove But really, whatever you prefer! :)
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bear :)
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bear adds to his h-card
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gRegorLove Added my markup to the mf-wiki and noted the corrected spelling in it.
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gRegorLove (and typoed "note". sigh.)
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ben_thatmustbeme prefers his lordship/his lordship/his lordship's
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gRegorLove Whatever you say, his thatmust. ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme heh
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gRegorLove Hey, cool. https://unrelenting.technology/likes/2015-11-15-20-11-16 shows the pronouns for the person being replied to.
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Loqi [Greg] unrelenting.technology
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tantek reads past couple of hours of logs
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tantek what is birthday
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Loqi A birthday is the date when someone is born, however in the context of the indieweb, it is a feature displayed on some silos' user profiles that you can (or must) enter, and some prominently present to your friends on the month and day of your birthday, like Facebook's "BIRTHDAYS THIS WEEK" feature at the top of their events page https://indiewebcamp.com/birthday
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tantek shaners https://indiewebcamp.com/birthday#IndieWeb_Examples
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[shaners] good call, t. thnx.
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tantek np. I'll keep randomly documenting things in the hopes that one day someone asks the right question.
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tantek what is a bio?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bio" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10P0
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is a homepage?
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Loqi Your homepage represents you on the web, typically at the top of your domain, and shows your name and an iconic representation, often marked up with h-card https://indiewebcamp.com/homepage
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bear +1 to redirecting bio to homepage
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tantek bear - go for it!
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gRegorLove What is about?
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Loqi "About" is a commonly occurring page or section on a site that provides an introduction, overview, or summary of the site http://indiewebcamp.com/about
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gRegorLove bio seems more like /about to me, but perhaps because that's how I set my own site up.
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[shaners] Anyone in channel with any Ruby experience that might could help me figure out this one thing that’s not working.
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bear I always liked bio/homepage/about to be the same page
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tantek I'm trying to figure out how to document what shaners asked for regarding p-note
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bear but I could see how bio could be /about
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[shaners] (That was meant to be a question)
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aaronpk sure, as long as it's not a rails question.
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tantek shaners, I can't help with that, but I do have p-note on my h-card on my homepage if that helps with anything
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bear what's the wiki redirect shortcut?
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tantek now I just need a place to document it as an IndieWeb Example
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tantek x is /y
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[shaners] Thanks t. I’ll test your site against my h-card app
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bear ta
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bear bio is /about
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loqi.me created /bio (+18) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-27/line/1467063620769 and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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[shaners] aaronpk: I’m using a syntax highlight lib called Rouge to show the debug info (JSON from pin13) on /new.
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tantek FWIW I've seen separate bio vs about pages, e.g. a bio is sometimes something you specifically curate for conferences that want "your bio" for their conference page
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tantek e.g. tantek.com/w/TantekBIO
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tantek er
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tantek tantek.com/w/TantekBio
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bear that seems to be a thin/vague difference between bio and about
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aaronpk i have a separate bio page as well
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aaronpk tho i don't really have an "about" page
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aaronpk home page, contact page, bio
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[shaners] It’s usage documentation is pretty limited. But it only seems to work with a `File.read` as input.
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[shaners] When I give it a string, it barfs. Any idea how to treat a string as a FileIO object or stream or something?
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[shaners] https://github.com/jneen/rouge#usage
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bear i'll add some disabiguation text to /about
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aaronpk [shaners]: any reason you're using pin13 for that and not the ruby mf2 parser?
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tantek bear, or make /bio separate and link mutual See Also sections
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bear.im edited /about (+10) "add see-also for bio" (view diff)
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[shaners] aaronpk: bc as we discussed in PDX the ruby mf2 parser is behind / not complete. So, until it’s in a better way (not enough hours in the day), I can ship now but leaning on pin13 (or some other mf2 parsing web service, if you prefer).
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aaronpk ah k. no problem.
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[shaners] either way, i’d still have this File vs string issue for Rouge. :confused:
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veganstraightedge.com edited /pronoun (+84) "/* Silo Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek huh just found an indie jam from adactio (who I don't think posted one before) https://adactio.com/notes/10874
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] These Are My Bitter-tasting Jams.
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tantek a multijam even
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bear.im edited /bio (+558) "add bio page" (view diff)
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[shaners] aaronpk: nevermind. i got it figured out. ish.
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aaronpk [shaners]: i thought `File.read` returns a string
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tantek Hey did we already discuss what to call Jeremy's CMS since he refuses to give it a name?
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[shaners] i was misreading the error and projecting the problem onto the wrong place
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tantek I've been threatening to call it ACME and I think I'm going to pull the trigger
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tantek what is ACME?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ACME" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10P1
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aaronpk [shaners]: ah cool
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[shaners] Why not “Jeremy Keith’s CMS”, tantek ?
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tantek shaners, because I know how much you like clever names
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bear JKCMS and if he balks say it's Just Kidding CMS
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aaronpk or "JKLOL"
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tantek ACME is the Adacio Content Management Engine, a privately developed [[CMS]] by {{adactio}} written in [[PHP]] with [[MySQL]] for storage.
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loqi.me created /ACME (+165) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-27/line/1467064404081 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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bear ah - ACME would have been clearer if I knew that is who adactio is :)
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@calum_ryan Interested in/already building your own website? maybe even a progressive web app! Come to Homebrew Website London http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/747548785023262720)
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tantek now that's what I call planning ahead
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[shaners] tantek: you misspelled “Adactio” in that dfn
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tantek.com edited /jam (+184) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Jeremy Keith" (view diff)
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tantek shaners, yep, fixed it with a minor edit
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bear acme is /ACME
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tantek bear, only works if Loqi didn't know what it was
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Loqi who, me?
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gregorlove.com edited /bio (+4) "/* Guidelines */ link /resume" (view diff)
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bear oh - I tried to visit /acme and it said the page didn't exist
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tantek yeah for cap diffs you have to create manually
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bear k
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bear.im created /acme (+17) "case redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /bio (+116) "/* add yourself */" (view diff)
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bear.im created /BIO (+16) "case redirect" (view diff)
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aaronpk no Loqi only creates pages from IRC lines if previously asked
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aaronpk otherwise we'd have a *lot* of junk wiki pages, believe me ;-)
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bear haha - yea, I would imagine
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bear what is this
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Loqi This. (AKA THIS. or This: or THIS:) is type of quotation post similar in meaning to a combined like & repost where the text "This." is stated on a line by itself after the quotation, or the text "This:" is stated before a quotation or URL to express a strong affirmation or agreement with the referenced quotation or article http://indiewebcamp.com/this
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (-47) "/* TODO: did h-card fetching */" (view diff)
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bear what is that
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Loqi That! (or "that ^" or "that ^^^") is a rarely seen reply often emphasizing agreement with a This post, but sometimes[1] merely emphasizing agreement with a previous reply http://indiewebcamp.com/that
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aaronpk [shaners]: oooo
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bear drat - here I was going to be "funny" and next say "that is this"
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tantek and this is that
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bear laughs as we chaos-test loqi
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Loqi :)
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tantek bear you could try /me giving Loqi a chaos-test and see what he does with it
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bear gives loqi a chaos-test
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[shaners] aaronpk: https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/new?website=aaronparecki.com
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Loqi thanks, bear!
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aaronpk huh, where did we end up with the discussion on newline handling in p-* parsing?
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gRegorLove shaners++
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Loqi shaners has 46 karma
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aaronpk there's an awful lot of newlines in my p-note
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[shaners] bear: https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/new?website=bear.im
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[shaners] aaronpk: Not sure. I’m punting on that one. What’s there now is filed under G for “good enough for now”.
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[shaners] tantek: https://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/new?website=tantek.com
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[shaners] etc
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gRegorLove That's a parser issue anyway
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aaronpk yeah i don't think it's something you need to worry about. it's either something i need to fix with my markup, or the parser should be doing it.
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aaronpk this is sweet
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bear [shaners]++ for h-card-as-a-service!
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bear shaners++ for h-card-as-a-service!
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Loqi shaners has 47 karma
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bear hmm loqi needs to translate slack nicks
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aaronpk oops yeah. fixed that in newloqi already
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[shaners] aaronpk gregorlove: kind of. I also have the opportunity to convert \n to paragraphs or not. (Rails has `simple_format()` which is a slightly smarter `nl2br()` ).
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aaronpk hm i nee to add u-url to all my rel=me links
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aaronpk or this should include rel=me links
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[shaners] I could add rel-mes. Or we could use this as a carrot/stick to encourage u-urls in h-cards.
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bear how do I get p-nickname to be associated with different silos?
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gRegorLove Nested h-cards? Heh
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KevinMarks_ does the nickname map to a url on the silo?
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[shaners] bear: i don’t think we have any markup concept of that.
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bear I was wondering - the descriptive text in h-card-as-a-service kinda implies that
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aaronpk IRC usernames technically have a URL although i think it ended up not working right when tantek was trying it
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bear oh - yea, I could add p-nickname to my rel="me" urls for silos
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[shaners] It’s meant to be a way to collect handles for chat room lookups. (URLs by @nicknames are coming soon.)
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[shaners] bear: that’s not quite precise though. “bear” is your nickname, not “https://twitter.com/bear”.
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[shaners] or whatever URL :stuck_out_tongue:
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aaronpk there appear to be URLs for slack profiles too https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/team/aaronpk
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bear yea, I was going to add <span class="p-nickname">codebear</span> inside the <a> for twitter
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[shaners] oic
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[shaners] :thumbsup:
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aaronpk but like [shaners] was saying, the actual use of it is to match chat usernames to profiles
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[shaners] for a /chat-people page, like our /irc-people page.
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aaronpk for example if you ask Loqi "who is aaronpk?" he needs to be able to find the username "aaronpk" somewhere
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Loqi Aaron Parecki is the co-founder of IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Aaronparecki.com
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[shaners] exactly
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bear cool - it found all of them
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tantek.com edited /bio (+193) "more general (non-plumbing/format) definition, add self to home page examples" (view diff)
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[shaners] bear: found what all? Your nicknames?
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bear yes
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bear I was using your site to test my h-card edits
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@lightcoin @taoeffect POSSE: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/747556161868562437)
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[shaners] what is representative h-card?
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Loqi The representative h-card for a page is an h-card on that page that represents that page, if any, as not all pages are about a person or organization, a page might not have a representative h-card https://indiewebcamp.com/representative_h-card
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tantek nice ^^^ the decentralization crowd is starting to use our terminology
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[shaners] aaronpk: what’s your service to get a representative h-card from a given URL?
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tantek huh, this is both funny and illustrative of confusion even among dev-like folks: https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/747547502153347072
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[shaners] what is p3k naming convention?
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@taoeffect The number of pro-#decentralization folks writing on @Medium is embarrassing. (twitter.com/_/status/747547502153347072)
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Loqi The p3k naming convention is to find steampunk-era names that somewhat reflect the functionality of each microservice https://indiewebcamp.com/p3k_naming_convention
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aaronpk [shaners]: doesn't exist as a service yet, but there is a library: https://github.com/indieweb/representative-h-card-php
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[shaners] aaronpk: is it Census...
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[shaners] Damn. PHP lib does me no good in Rails land. Though, I guess I can port it to Ruby.
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aaronpk tantek: wow that thread 😂 https://twitter.com/lightcoin/status/747556770420133889
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@lightcoin @taoeffect do keep in mind that you started this thread on a platform from you which you yourself are not using POSSE. (twitter.com/_/status/747556770420133889)
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tantek yep
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tantek hey KevinMarks you have a polite and effective way of replying to these threads, could you reply to https://twitter.com/Steven_McKie/status/747549487678164993 with some nice constructive suggestions?
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@Steven_McKie @taoeffect @WordPress My def. of a decen. long form site differs I think, or better, my vision differs (twitter.com/_/status/747549487678164993)
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aaronpk [shaners]: the comments here explain pretty well what's going on https://github.com/indieweb/representative-h-card-php/blob/master/src/mf2/representative-h-card.php#L5
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tantek doesn't feel like doing one of those, hey, some of us have been decentralized tweeting since 2010 reply :P
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+120) "/* TODO: port representative-h-card-php to Ruby */" (view diff)
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tantek oh hey: https://twitter.com/taoeffect/status/747557686179299328
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@taoeffect .@lightcoin Great point. I've been eyeing "Quitter" aka @GNUsocial: https://quitter.no/main/public (they've still a long way to go tho) (twitter.com/_/status/747557686179299328)
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tantek does Quitter / GNUsocial support mf2 / webmention?
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aaronpk but that library is mostly concerned with finding the representative h-card for a non-profile page, like finding the author h-card for an h-entry permalink
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tantek was that one of the ones that ben_thatmustbeme patched?
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gRegorLove Would any PHP + mf2 people be willing to review PRs for php-mf2? ben_thatmustbeme? I'm wanting to get some things merged to the master branch, even if they're not released right away (Barnaby has to sign + release)
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tantek bows out of attempted triple thread discussions
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[shaners] (Unnecessary abbreviating in tweets really grinds my gears: "def. of a decen. long")
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aaronpk tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/GNU_social#IndieWeb_Compatibility
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gRegorLove Also tantek^. Anyone comfortable with the microformats parsing spec and PHP, really.
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tantek hmm - has Quitter enabled webmention?
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tantek I figure KevinMarks tracks these things
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[shaners] aaronpk: `bday` on http://acegiak.net isn’t in a top level `h-card`. so I’m not catching it. but looking for authorship of feed/entries is a bigger task than I want to take on right now now.
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+45) "/* Feedback: Added location */" (view diff)
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tantek shaners, I'm guessing that acegiak might want to hear that feedback, perhaps try a !tell?
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aaronpk ah, well that example would be caught by my library. the trick is to find any h-card on the page that has a u-url of the URL of the page it came from
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aaronpk there seems to be not a lot of consensus on what the top-level object of a home page should be. tantek's is an h-card, acegiak's is an h-feed, i don't have a single top-level object.
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[shaners] I don’t have a single top-level object either. I have h-feed and h-card.
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tantek aaronpk sounds like something worth documenting on /homepage
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tantek maybe in the /homepage#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek you could add an entry for those you've analyzed
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tantek * top level object: h-card
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tantek or
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tantek * top level object: multiple: h-feed and h-card
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tantek etc.
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[shaners] The way the parsed JSON is specced, (to me) implies that there can be multiple top level objects. That’s why there’s a “items” array, right?
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tantek right
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tantek and that's deliberate, to allow for publisher page design / markup flexibility
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aaronpk in any case the representative h-card algorithm basically says go find an h-card (regardless of how deep it is) that has a u-url of the page
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tantek (i.e. being able to sprinkle the microformats markup into the page's existing structure, instead of having microformats coerce the page structure somehow)
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[shaners] right. that’s just a little bit more of a rabbit hole than i want to dive into today.
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aaronpk it's not that bad i promise :)
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aaronpk all the code is in one file
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[shaners] I’ll port it later. Promise. :smile:
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[shaners] bear: still in channel?
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[shaners] anyone wanna add `dt-bday` to their h-card for my testing?
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aaronpk mine has it now
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aaronpk tho i'm not sure what the ISO8601 format for a date without a year is
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bear [shaners] - yes
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KevinMarks_ mine already does
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bear ah - yea, dt-bday and a specific location you won't find in my websites
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KevinMarks_ Quitter/gnusocial has mf2 but not webmention afaik, though we can check
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bear (getting dox'd once made me very very careful about public info)
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tantek aaronpk, date w/o year: --MM-DD
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aaronpk orly
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aaronpk link?
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aaronpk it's not on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Dates at all
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tantek sigh, you don't trust me to have memorized it? ;)
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tantek challenge accepted.
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[shaners] bear: sorry to hear that happened to you :confused:
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aaronpk it's not that *i* don't trust you, but can't say the same for everyone else reading these logs in the future ;-)
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tantek bear, did you ever get back @bear, or was that left as scorched earth?
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bear I left it as scorched-earth
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tantek sorry to hear that
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aaronpk the w3c version of iso8601 doesn't allow missing years either https://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime-970915
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bear bah - ISO has a paywall for downloading specs now
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KevinMarks_ add yearless date to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Property_Details for bday?
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Loqi h-card
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tantek yeah the W3C version has all sorts of problems, like artificial precision (which then infected Atom) etc.
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tantek do I have to point out that the W3C "version" is a NOTE?
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bear iso8601 and rfc3339 IIRC don't allow for partial date but do allow for partial time
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tantek Behold, the power of a NOTE
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tantek since we ARE talking about bday in particular, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-6.2.5
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tantek bear I believe you are mistaken about iso8601
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tantek iso8601 allows for all kinds of partials
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tantek YYYY, YYYY-MM, --MM-DD
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aaronpk still haven't found a reference to --MM-DD but finding the actual text of ISO8601 or ISO8601:2004 is proving challenging
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tantek YYYY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Years
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tantek YYYY-MM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Calendar_dates
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bear yea, I was trying to find a conanical reference but ISO now has the non-informative sections behind a paywall
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tantek bear - I'm pretty sure your intuition about that is incorrect given the two examples I cited
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bear yea, agree
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bear was just looking for my own verification - I try to not use wikipedia as a spec authoritative source
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tantek here you go, by implied reference: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-4.3.1
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aaronpk this answer seems to think "-" is not allowed as a year http://stackoverflow.com/a/20861457
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tantek not - but --
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tantek the double - is important
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aaronpk well the second "-" is the separator like between MM-DD
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aaronpk how can ISO publish a spec that you can only pay to read
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bear ah didn't think to look at 6350
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tantek aaronpk, welcome to world of even older standards orgs
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tantek where "open" means anyone can pay for it ;)
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aaronpk what a racket
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bear oh my this is bringing back all of the memories of why I stopped supporting iso8601 in parsedatetime
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tantek there you go aaronpk. reload: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Calendar_dates
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aaronpk haha well that's one way to do it
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KevinMarks_ heh
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aaronpk nothing added to the prose section?
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tantek hey I even cited RFC 6350's use of it!
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KevinMarks_ should also edit http://microformats.org/wiki/date#Profile_of_ISO8601 to point to 6350
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Loqi Datetime Design Pattern
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tantek KevinMarks: sure
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tantek go for it
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tantek aaronpk I couldn't think of anything in particular to add
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tantek figured my citation in my edit message was sufficient
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aaronpk i added a bit :)
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aaronpk i almost didn't even notice your edit cause it wasn't in the paragraph
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (-70) "/* TODO: did ensure leading `http://` or `https://` on `Personal Website` field */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /bio (+203) "/* gRegor Morrill */ notes" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /about (+86) "/* separate page */ +me" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /content_addressing (+265) "existing web standards" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /content_addressing (+461) "/* Use in existing web standards */" (view diff)
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (-28) "/* TODO: did add @nickname search urls */" (view diff)
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[shaners] http://h-card-as-a-service.herokuapp.com/@shaners
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veganstraightedge.com edited /h-card_as_a_service (+98) "/* Brainstorming */" (view diff)
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[shaners] aaronpk: Will that work for the {{username}} lookup?
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