#indieweb 2016-10-24

2016-10-24 UTC
Gold, userXYZ, corenomi1al, koray, valan, wagle_, korayal, terminalpixel, moredhel, bttf, renoirb, daf, funwhilelost, awolf and tantek joined the channel
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Loqi [indieweb] "Idea of the Week: Web Directions Alumni" by Ricky Onsman on 2016-10-24 https://www.webdirections.org/blog/idea-week-web-directions-alumni/
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@kevinmarks Why you should blog instead of writing hacker news comments http://danluu.com/hn-comments/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/790388285944139776)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why you should blog instead of writing hacker news comments http://danluu.com/hn-comments/ #indieweb" by Kevin Marks on 2016-10-24 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/why-you-should-blog-instead-of-writing-hacker-news-comments
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snarfed hey aaronpk, looking at https://micropub.rocks/server-tests/804 , i'm surprised it expects 401 instead of 403
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snarfed if it's testing a valid token that just doesn't have enough oauth scope, seems like that'd be 403...?
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snarfed oh nm the spec is explicit that 401 is for insufficient scope, 403 is user-specific (ie implementation detail)
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snarfed ok
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snarfed https://micropub.net/draft/index.html#h-error-response
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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aaronpk Yeah that's tricky. I tried to describe the situation in the description
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aaronpk youre not the first to be confused tho so I would love any suggestions on improved wording
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KevinMarks I need a js;dr equivalent for "low contrast; didn't read"
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KartikPrabhu lc;dr
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KartikPrabhu or cr;dr = couldn't read;didn't read
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snarfed design;dr
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KevinMarks Right, but people already understood js as an abbreviation
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KevinMarks I don't like the demonizing of design in general that has been one reaction to my post
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snarfed woo, submitting implementation report for wordpress micropub!
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snarfed supports everything except media endpoint
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snarfed aaronpk++ for micropub.rocks!
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Loqi aaronpk has 1126 karma (432 in this channel)
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GWG snarfed: I have some ideas on that.
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GWG For another day
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snarfed GWG: yes, i know, the REST API framework :P
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snarfed re media endpoint, it's not really necessary, so i'm fine omitting it it
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snarfed woo, done: https://micropub.rocks/implementation-report/server/27/Ouvg5VCJrclDWHUtQHXA
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GWG snarfed: Actually, not. I have some ideas about how to improve how the authentication happens
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snarfed GWG: ok...what do you think is missing right now?
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GWG I may try the REST thing at some point. But I I want to move authenticating to Indieauth into an implementation not specific to Micropub.
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snarfed oh. i guess
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snarfed decoupling things can be nice, agreed. but it usually works better when you have a concrete use case that you do it for, instead of just doing it in a vacuum
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snarfed do you have one?
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KevinMarks_ ??;dr
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 255 karma (201 in this channel)
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GWG snarfed: I was looking at the old Indieauth plugin for logging into WordPress and wondering if an implementation could cover that as well. I have a few other thoughts in that area.
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aaronpk snarfed: ooh yay thanks!!
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aaronpk agreed that the media endpoint isn't a required thing. It's more like progressive enhancement
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tantek agreed aaronpk, great set of slides Jeena!
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tantek Jeena++ for https://jeena.net/media/2016/IndieWeb-Jeena.pdf
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Loqi jeena has 42 karma (35 in this channel)
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Jeena I need to upgrade this PDF to the newest version
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sl007 Jeena : New logo is here : https://indieweb.org/img/indiewebcamp.svg ;) https://indieweb.org/2016/Berlin
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sl007 Jeena++
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Loqi jeena has 43 karma (36 in this channel)
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Jeena hehe I know, I have the whole thing with new links and new logo as a LibreOffice document an my computer, just have to export and upload it
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sl007 cool
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Jeena sadly I will not be able to attend the Berlin IWC :/
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sl007 Jeena: Well at least not physically - try to follow us on video/irc. BTW: still got bungloo installed on Sierra - did not wanted to delete the Monster Mascot ;) Will finish indieauth-node until WE and push to git …
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Jeena oh hehe and it still works? hm what was your name on tent, I don't remember anyone called sl007
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sl007 https://sebilasse.cupcake.is/profile
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sl007 Jeena
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Jeena ah hehe ok, cool :D
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misuba anyone awake to help me figure out why an h-entry won’t validate?
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@webrocker @m_ott @helloanselm immer dieses IoT (indieweb off topics) (twitter.com/_/status/790511039322460160)
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sl007 misuba: apart from http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/ - yes
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misuba sl007: all the validators and bridgy agree: http://gibberish.com/archives/2016/10/23/798/ , which has an h-entry in it, has no h-entry in it
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snarfed misuba: looking at https://mf2.kylewm.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgibberish.com%2Farchives%2F2016%2F10%2F23%2F798%2F&parser=html5lib ...
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snarfed i do see the entry, it's just a child of an h-feed that's a child of a top-level h-as-note
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snarfed that top level h-as-note is probably the problem
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misuba …at the top level? wow
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snarfed (and since that's a single post, you probably don't want the h-feed either)
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misuba holy crap yeah. how is that getting in there.
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misuba okay cool. thanks all
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snarfed gl!
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes, Highlights, and Marginalia: From E-books to Online" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-10-24 http://boffosocko.com/2016/10/24/notes-highlights-and-marginalia/
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes, Highlights, and Marginalia: From E-books to Online" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-10-24 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/notes-highlights-and-marginalia-from-e-books-to-online-ded35dc069bb?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes, Highlights, and Marginalia: From E-books to Online" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-10-24 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/notes-highlights-and-marginalia-from-e-books-to-online-ded35dc069bb?source=rss------css-5
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Loqi [indieweb] "Notes, Highlights, and Marginalia: From E-books to Online" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-10-24 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/notes-highlights-and-marginalia-from-e-books-to-online-ded35dc069bb?source=rss-f9e3747f5480------2
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tantek !tell ChrisAldrich re: http://boffosocko.com/2016/10/24/notes-highlights-and-marginalia/ have you seen https://indieweb.org/marginalia and especially the clever design of what KartikPrabhu does with them? E.g. https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/marginalia
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek what is a venue?
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Loqi A venue is a named location or address/geo that is typically used for checkins https://indieweb.org/venue
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gRegorLove what is geo?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/geo
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tantek I think I just figured out the, how do you publish *where* a post was *published*, vs. *where* a post is *about*!
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tantek p-location vs u-category!
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tantek that is, p-location is the location a post was published, whereas u-category is used for tagging what a post is about, and thus we have u-category h-card for person-tags, but if the h-card is a venue, then the post is about a venue as well, or u-category h-adr (h-geo or geo: URL) would convey that the post is about a specific address (or geo accordingly!)
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tantek aaronpk please review analysis / brainstorm ^^^
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tantek often these may be the same in practice, but they're also often not (e.g. posting photos of a place long after the fact, from some other location. this confusion can easily happen if you have location enabled tweets for example, and post a photo to twitter that you took yesterday somewhere else - Twitter will still post you *current* location, not the location of the photo)
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tantek this distinction, often overlooked, between where you're posting from vs. where you're posting about, and respective imprecision/ambiguity/misleading in posting/viewing UIs has bothered me for years.
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jonnybarnes so is a “checkin” to a venue, posting about or from?
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tantek jonnybarnes, a check-in *should* be both - from and about a venue. however even that is not sufficient to distinguish a checkin from a photo of a location that is posted from that location.
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tantek checkin is going to almost certainly need some other piece of information, a property, or a new value to an existing property, to express the *intent* of a checking in
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aaronpk interesting, like "place tagging"
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aaronpk seems reasonable
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tantek if we allow for "postsquare" style checkins, then a checkin's key components are being about a location, at a particular point in time, separate from the location and time (sometime later) of publication
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tantek searches google for "postquare" definition and finds http://indieweb.org/irc/2014-11-14/line/1415993756740 ?
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Loqi [tantek] "postsq" or "postsquare" we call them
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tantek aaronpk, yes, place tags!
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tantek but that begs the question, how to do datetime tags
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bear woudln't a checkin be the application of a geo location and a person?
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tantek I've definitely checked in before with "Post" and explicitly indicated my actual (earlier) time of arrival in the prose
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aaronpk like a post *about* a date?
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tantek or a time
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aaronpk well there's already the created vs published difference, which is very visible in the flickr UI
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tantek bear - necessary but insufficient, hence the photo with location (and even people) counterexample
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[schmarty] "the night in question"
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tantek yes
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tantek created vs published is very different - those are both "of" the post
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tantek Flickr has "time taken" which is about the photo (image)
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tantek s/time/date
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tantek but that's photo specific
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tantek I seem to recall one of GWG's recent articles was about a particular date, or was it year?
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tantek if you're a history blogger, presumably you're publishing lots of posts about specific dates (perhaps even times)
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tantek a timehop post is *about* a particular date (a year ago or multiple thereof)
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tantek that is different from the publication date
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bear i'm trying to break it down to the simplest of items so that the minimum info can be gathered - anything else would be added to it as use cases appear
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tantek bear - that's falling into a bit of a reductionist trap - that's the problem
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bear this is one area where most of you have a lot of experience with what I would consider to be the more complicated of views of what a checkin is
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tantek having done this analysis before (not just me, many others, including aaronpk, here in IRC, and in in-person conversations), purely trying to reduce a checkin to its components does not work when you attempt reconstruction
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bear not reductionist at all - just making sure that the core items are well identified
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bear goes away
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tantek using "core" here doesn't help but merely pushing the question down to "what is core"
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tantek bear - if you can figure out a way to construct checkin posts from existing properties in a way that disambiguates from mere notes with locations, or photos with locations (with or without people), then you have A LOT of people here interested in your solution :)
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tantek attempts a positive rephrasing ;)
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bear :)
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tantek clicks on a ~2 year old Loqi "looks like we don't have a" link to see what happens
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KartikPrabhu are "notes with location" interpreted as "this note was posted from [location]" ?
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bear I was trying to be a rubber duck to all of the solutions that you all have in your thoughts already - just trying to make sure that the simple solution wasn't overlooked because of some built in (but not on purpose) architectial astronaut'ing)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: on Twitter yes
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KartikPrabhu ok
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tantek and thus I think that makes sense to reflect in the p-location property of h-entry
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KartikPrabhu but a checkin is "this note is about this [location]" ?
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tantek it should also be published *at*
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tantek the implication of a checkin is that the person checking in is there at the moment
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tantek yet, there are some exceptions
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tantek goes back to defining one
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gRegorLove Yep, I checkin sometimes as I'm leaving, or shortly after.
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KartikPrabhu making plain language statements helps me
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#p-location "p-location - location the entry was posted from" phew
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML/H...
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tantek at least I got that right
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gRegorLove e.g. checkin to a movie theater, the one here usually has no coverage inside so it's after I leave, unless I remember to checkin before I enter.
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tantek Hey Loqi, would you consider supporting fragmentions for your summary retrievals?
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gRegorLove gives Loqi the fragmention
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Loqi hearts the fragmention
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KartikPrabhu would a checkin translate as "this post is about [location] where I was recently" ?
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tantek not ideally no
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tantek ideally a checkin means I just got here
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tantek more liberally, I am here
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KartikPrabhu ok so checkin = "i am at [location]"? but that simply sounds like location tracking, unless there is a way to distinguish it as a venue of some sort
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tantek sounds like location tracking but is not in a very important way, that is the key distinguishing feature of a "checkin"
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tantek which is that the person is explicitly declaring it
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tantek has nothing to do with "tracking"
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tantek nothing at all
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KartikPrabhu sorry wrong words. I meant "location declaring"
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[schmarty] i'm looking through older checkin discussion on the wiki and i see some mentions of "h-as-checkin"
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tantek oh dear more h-as-* to scrub :/
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KartikPrabhu [schmarty]: yeah explicit post-types like that are discouraged for reasons tantek will explain/link to next
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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KartikPrabhu what is explicit post type?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "explicit post type" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek ugh no
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[schmarty] i remember reading that h-as-* is an anti-pattern because explicit post types are an anti-pattern. :}
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fiatjaf is anyone interested in webvatar.com?
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fiatjaf code is here: https://github.com/fiatjaf/webvatar.com
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fiatjaf the domain I'm giving
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fiatjaf been up for 2 years
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@caseorganic @grapealope @mybasis Oh man. There needs to be an device deaths page. It's not just websites anymore. https://indieweb.org/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/790670709290852352)
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tantek yes totally
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tantek wow
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tantek like that router thing that Google bought
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tantek someone please start that page
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tantek caseorganic++
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Loqi caseorganic has 153 karma (10 in this channel)
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[schmarty] this is probably wading into well-tread territory that is new to me, but it does strike me that a post describing a checkin might need something to indicate that it's a different verb than a post with location.
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KartikPrabhu fiatjaf: so it as a "avatar as a service"? also the links above the images don't seem to do anything
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[schmarty] wow, bricking a fitness watch
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tantek schmarty - close - something about it. "verb" may not be the exact thing but yes, some other aspect
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tantek and I think the above discussion just illuminated that for me
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tantek a checkin is an explicit indication from a person that they are (or were) at a location at a specific time
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tantek *explicit* *location* *plus* *time*
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tantek that sounds like a new location+time property to me
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[schmarty] or some way to explicitly group them? location-with-embedded-time?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: how about the following: if a post has a p-location and a u-category with the same p-location it is a checkin?
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KartikPrabhu the time can be inferred from dt-published or "dt-created" (if that exists)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: does not work for postsquares
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tantek (false negative)
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tantek also does not work for a photo taken and immediately posted from and at a location
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tantek (false positive)
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fiatjaf KartikPrabhu, yes, I changed one line now, without testing, and the whole site broke. it is back working again (it may have cached wrong routes for you for a while, however).
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tantek schmarty - the challenge is, we already have something that is "location-with-time" (and named) - namely, an "event"
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tantek and I think we may have run across this path of reasoning before
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tantek how is a checkin different from an event as it were
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tantek simply present/past vs future?
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tantek but seriously device-deaths
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[schmarty] hmm. h-event has its own mf2 definition. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-event - "h-checkin" seems like overkill but my mind went there first.
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Loqi h-event
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tantek schmarty - that's a natural inclination for any new data format problem, to start by assuming a new h-* object
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tantek it's not the right (minimal) approach, just natural
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tantek people like making up new objects / classes of things
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tantek probably some variant of bikeshedding or ontological distraction. seems to be human or at least philosophically inclined
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[schmarty] it is comforting to put labels on things :}
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tantek I would like to know if there is a name for that phenomena
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tantek besides say, labelism
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[schmarty] it reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
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tantek dodges the WP:Rabbithole
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tantek what is Revolv
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Loqi Revolv is a home automation hub that receives automatic software updates, acquired by Google, and shutting down 2016-05-15, including a software update that bricks all existing Revolv devices https://indieweb.org/Revolv
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tantek a-ha
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tantek what are device-deaths?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "device-deaths" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek device-deaths are like [[site-deaths]], except of physical devices made useless by their manufacturer or otherwise dependent service either explicitly shutting them down (bricking) or become inoperable to the site-death of said service. For example: 2016-05-15 [[Revolv]], 2016-12-31 [[Basis B1]] watch (https://twitter.com/grapealope/status/790668650814513152).
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Loqi ok
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@grapealope Nooo! @mybasis shutting down service for their B1 watch, one of my favorite wearables. Another orphaned hardware de… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/790668650814513152 (twitter.com/_/status/790668650814513152)
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[schmarty] tl;dr version of E-prime is something like: all the forms of "to be" have distinct functions that tend to run together and lead to misunderstanding and conflict. my takeaway is that saying something "is" something leads to confusion.
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fiatjaf so no one wants it? https://webvatar.com/
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fiatjaf if anyone is interested, I'm at fiatjaf.alhur.es, the site will be offline in one month.
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@t @caseorganic good suggestion. Started http://indieweb.org/device-deaths with @revolv and @mybasis Basis B1 as examples. (ttk.me t4jy2) (twitter.com/_/status/790677056342241280)
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tantek schmarty smells like nihilism spirit
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tantek fiatjaf - hmm - seems like something similar to hcard-as-a-service but done by directly aggregating from people's sites, rather than requiring a separate UI
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tantek (not requiring a separate authoring / form UI seems to be a good thing)
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tantek who here was still working on anything h-card-as-a-service in addition to shaners? perhaps take a look at webvatar to see if you could use that and if so get on it with fiatjaf!
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[schmarty] tantek: haha, it feels pretty bleak. my takeaway from it is that trying to distinctly label things becomes a messy business.
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Loqi nice
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tantek schmarty - sounds like a glass is half empty assesment ;)
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tantek the flaw in that takeaway is that the same reasoning can be used to criticise/discount natural language as a whole
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[schmarty] tantek - fair point! language evolves as practices evolve. in this case i think of it as one of many ways to view the question "does checkin need an h-checkin?" before making a choice. :}
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tantek that's a specific instance of the "do we need a new microformat" question for which there's some analysis here: http://microformats.org/wiki/process
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Loqi The microformats process
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[schmarty] haha, excellent!
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[kevinmarks] Is there a difference between a prospective checkin and an event? Dodgeball or old foursquare style "I'm going to 21st amendment soon"
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gRegorLove What is h-as-*?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "h-as-*" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove What is h-as?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "h-as" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove What is webvatar?
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Loqi Webvatar is a service that provides direct URLs for <img> tags when you have the domain, or website address, of the user https://indieweb.org/webvatar
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gRegorLove Last I recall, shaners was looking for anyone interested in taking up the h-card-as-a-service tool he started. Haven't seen anyone take him up on it yet.
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tantek hmm so both shaners is looking for someone to take over h-card-as-a-service and fiatjaf is looking for someone to take over webvatar.
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gRegorLove misses search on the chat logs
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snarfed hey GWG would you mind trying wp-micropub 1.0 before i push it to the plugin directory?
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gRegorLove cweiske had a search but I can't seem to find it
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GWG h-as was an attempt to match ActivityStream vocabulary to microformats.
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Loqi ok
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snarfed you don't have to fully fit it into your posting flow, just try anything
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GWG snarfed, will do tonight. Been busy with non Indieweb stuff.
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snarfed ok
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GWG I have it on my test site with a test Twitter account which will do the trick.
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snarfed GWG: maybe prioritize just normal post CRUD stuff. syndication is a nice extra, but i imagine will take work to set up, and i'm primarily interesed in the CRUD usage
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tantek location stuff is all over the place (so to speak) on the wiki
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tantek e.g. https://indieweb.org/note#Location
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GWG snarfed: I will try the normal stuff, but I may have to update the Post Kind Integration as you changed the hooks.
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GWG But that should be minor
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tantek jonnybarnes: could you add your CB and Bs posts as examples in a new section here for yourself? https://indieweb.org/location#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek I want to at least capture your examples because they are good examples that illustrate the problem well
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tantek alright, as brainstormed in #microformats, one possibility of representing the posts that currently look like / mean checkins, short of a new object, is a p-checkin property that expects an h-event object
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tantek e.g. h-entry (p-checkin h-event) - where the h-event's p-location is the the location of the checkin (likely itself an h-card) and the dt-start of the event is the time of checkin
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tantek question is whether that's too "nesty"
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tantek a "simple" checkin could just have a name of venue as the string value of a p-checkin property, and then leave it up to the consuming code to deal with it
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tantek or a u-checkin that had a venue URL (e.g. on your site)
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tantek or even a u-checkin with a geo: URL
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tantek in those cases (checkin property with simple string name of venue, or URL of venue, or geo: URL) the time of checkin could be assumed to be the dt-published of the h-entry (since there's no explicit h-event to get a dt-start from)
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tantek since consuming code already needs a way to deal with "string" locations (e.g. p-location in h-event or h-entry), it seems reasonable to leverage that and make p-checkin work the same way
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tantek which could then also allow for various venue objects there instead as well (p-checkin h-card) (p-checkin h-geo) (p-checkin h-adr) - not that all of those are needed or necessary per se but rather *could* be added should use-case needs arise.
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tantek in all cases, if the p-checkin does not itself contain time information, the time information comes from the post (dt-published)
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tantek but I don't want to design with all those possibilities to start with, but rather keep those as future expansion possibilities should the need arise
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tantek I think we can start with trying to make h-entry p-checkin h-event work, and go from there.
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tantek (i.e. see what problems (if any) people run into with that p-checkin h-event approach)
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tantek I'll wait to see if that makes sense to anyone publishing / consuming checkins (or wants to) before writing it up
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tantek (on the wiki)
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jonnybarnes tantek: that okay on /location ?
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tantek jonnybarnes - great start. when did you start posting notes with location information? can you add that?
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tantek what is OpenStreetMap?
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Loqi OpenStreetMap is "a free, editable map of the whole world that is being built by volunteers largely from scratch and released with an open-content license" https://indieweb.org/OpenStreetMap
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tantek what is Nominatim
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Nominatim
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jonnybarnes can we add now? there may be the odd note here or there
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jonnybarnes but its only recently ive got the code working decently
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tantek jonnybarnes - sure. e.g. if https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/Bs is your earliest you know of, then note that 2016-10-06 as when you started posting the
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Loqi [Jonny Barnes] It was, but it would help if my syndication code wasn’t commented out!
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KartikPrabhu what happened there ^
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KartikPrabhu oh! I thought Loqi messed up on jonnybarnes' reply
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jonnybarnes Loqi just unfurled the URL
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KartikPrabhu yeah i realised that later
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jonnybarnes lol, right, the very first note that ever had location data is https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/F
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Loqi [Jonny Barnes] I can now add location data to my notes! Though this isn’t being sent to Twitter yet.
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jonnybarnes and my current code can still use that notes data
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jonnybarnes I’m quite pleased with that
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tantek jonnybarnes - yes as an outcome of all this location vs check-in discussion, we have confirmed that p-location is the way to do it, means the same thing at Twitter's tweet location, so the request to Bridgy makes sense
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jonnybarnes tantek add first use dates to /location
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jonnybarnes s/add/added
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tantek awesome!
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jonnybarnes isn’t Loqi meant to edit the last line?
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tantek jonnybarnes - if there are any other post types that you support (besides "note") as listed here: https://indieweb.org/posts#Kinds_of_Posts - click on their page and add yourself to their "IndieWeb Examples" sections!
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jonnybarnes tantek added notes and articles
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tantek nice!
renoirb, brianloveswords, wolftune, rrix, bear, mattl, Jammy_Stuff, Garbee, acegiak, M-nd, tridnguyen, bret, CaptainCalliope_, aaronpk, arlen, halorgium, Kongaloosh, snarfed and [bear] joined the channel
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[bear] be aware - netsplit in progress on IRC side
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bear and it's back already - wow
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gRegorLove jonnybarnes: (way late reply) Loqi doesn't have his s/ powers back yet
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