#indieweb 2016-12-05

2016-12-05 UTC
KevinMarks, mlncn, eli_oat, KevinMarks_, KartikPrabhu, ChrisAldrich, begriffs, snarfed, plindner, TheGillies, M-rongladney, M-nd, jcgregorio[m], rdesfo[m], M-hotzeplotz, crasch[m], sknebel_matrix_t, Guest60189[m], 32NAAQ8B1, Guest86807[m], Jeffrey[m], M-mxuribe, 7F1AA766C, aegibsonme, wolftune, DanC_, tantek and arlen joined the channel
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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Loqi tantek: Jeena left you a message 1 day, 19 hours ago: The guy with the wiki told me to relay this to you https://gist.github.com/jeena/cbfa2cd67d23de977362753449c02d38
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Loqi tantek: Sebsel left you a message 13 hours, 3 minutes ago: I found where I saw 'went' first. Meetup.com changes 'going' to 'went' for past meetups. But: no RSVP-ing after the event! I documented: https://indieweb.org/went
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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tantek !tell Jeena sorry couldn't really follow that gist. Also since it is a long block of text, without breaking into chunks of arguments or points (paragraphs? lists?), especially with citations/quotations of what it is referring to (either agreeing or disagreeing with), it tripped my pattern recognizer for internet pseudo-science essays (been floating around since Usenet) and thus I can't really take it seriously. Apologies.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hey GWG - up late?
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GWG I'm in Florida visiting my grandparents. Trying to work on my location code
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GWG It has been stalled for a year now
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GWG I decided to try a philosophy mentioned by jonnybarnes
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tantek location code is hard
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GWG tantek: How so in your opinion? You've usually given something more thought than I
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tantek GWG, the biggest challenge is that few (even existing systems) have given sufficient/serious thought to the location at vs location about problem, and errantly conflate or ambiguate the two
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tantek nevermind existing "formats" like GeoRSS Geo(m)JSON etc.
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GWG Right now, I'm removing a whole bunch of code
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tantek e.g. tweet locations are not the same as instagram locations.
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tantek that's the easiest real world example to convey to people
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tantek tweet locations are locations at (posted from), instagram locations are locations about (photo is of the location). sometimes the two can be the same, but quite often they're not. e.g. in any Instagram "# latergram" or "# TBT" type posts, where the photo being posted happened sometime ago, and the location is of where the photo was taken, not where the IG post was made/published.
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GWG I define location as the location of a photo only if I define the post as a photo post...namely that the photo is the sole thing in the post.
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GWG But for now, my task is removing the individual data storage fields from individual posts. If it goes above the threshold of having a simple textual description and optionally coordinates, it is going to have to be a venue.
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GWG Of course, I haven't finished the venue code yet, but I decided to fix the non-venue code first.
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Not sure if this is an intricacy of http status codes or a bug, but in micropub.rocks when I return 202 on post creation, it's following the Location header and returning 404, because the post isn't public yet. When I return 201 it doesn't follow the location header though.
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Loqi [indieweb] "The IndieWeb people are working on this." by Mike Sugarbaker on 2016-12-05 https://medium.com/@misuba/the-indieweb-people-are-working-on-this-1bb85f7f8ab3?source=rss-------1
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tantek And that post seems both useless and unnecessarily cynical. At this point I would have expected more from @misuba given how much the folks in this community have tried to help him with past indieweb questions etc.
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[sciencemonkey] Is there any site or domain a wiki that currently cannot be googled but only accessed through URL links can be moved to that makes it easier to find?
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cweiske what?
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[sciencemonkey] The wiki http://scientific-method.wikia.com/wiki/Scientific_Method_Wiki currently does not show up on google. Is there any domain or something that I can transfer it or its contents to to make it easier for others to find?
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cweiske you should first find out why it's not findable by google
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Loqi totally
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[sciencemonkey] I do not know why it is not findable by google. That is why I am asking questions.
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cweiske [sciencemonkey], if you google for "site:scientific-method.wikia.com" you will find that the pages are indexed by google
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[sciencemonkey] That is a link. Googling the title, "Scientific Method Wiki", or exact phrases from the wiki gives no Google hits. That is a problem for the findability by people who currently does not know about the wiki.
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cweiske if I google for "scientific method wiki" (with quotes) it is on place 3
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[sciencemonkey] So now it has started working. It did not when I googled a few days ago. Thanks. Another question: are there any "own the site" drawbacks with a wiki?
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cweiske are you paying for the wiki?
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[sciencemonkey] Currently I am not paying for the wiki.
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cweiske can your donor (which is wikia in your case) take down the wiki any time?
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cweiske (i.e. stop donating the wiki to you)
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[sciencemonkey] Maybe they can, I do not know for sure.
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cweiske yes, they can
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cweiske they have no obligation to you
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[sciencemonkey] Shit.
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cweiske if you were paying, you'd have a contract with them which defines what they may do and what not
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cweiske and in which timeframe
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[sciencemonkey] Any recommendations on where I can move the content?
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cweiske maybe wikia offers a paid option which grants you enough rights for you to feel comfortable
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cweiske I don't know where you could host a wiki, sorry
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[sciencemonkey] I am now leaving the chat, off to safety copy articles to my USB stick.
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cweiske it's always a good idea to have backup
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Loqi [indieweb] "Wish I remembered to use @withknown to POSSE my tweets , and goodness knows how to PESOS them when I don't! #indieweb #indiewebshame" by Rob Fairhead on 2016-12-04 http://www.raretrack.uk/2016/wish-i-remembered-to-use-withknown-to-posse-my-tweets
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@martinlindner man hätte natürlich auch die #indieweb-bewegung drei ebenen höher hieven können: https://indieweb.org/Why (wenn man… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805692168149069824 (twitter.com/_/status/805692168149069824)
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Jeena tantek, yeah it's sciencemonkey (in slack) who is the person who send that, I hope he will get the hang of slack/irc discussions so it will be easier to understand what he means.
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Loqi Jeena: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 11 minutes ago: sorry couldn't really follow that gist. Also since it is a long block of text, without breaking into chunks of arguments or points (paragraphs? lists?), especially with citations/quotations of what it is referring to (either agreeing or disagreeing with), it tripped my pattern recognizer for internet pseudo-science essays (been floating around since Usenet) and thus I can't really take it seriously. Apologies.
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tantek Jeena - thanks for the clarification, appreciated.
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tantek Looks like cweiske helped him out a bit already
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cweiske at least I scared him a bit :)
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tantek you motivated him into backing up! that's quite productive :)
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Jeena true :)
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[sciencemonkey] What long block of text did tantek leave to Jeena?
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Jeena [sciencemonkey], I send him your email https://gist.github.com/jeena/cbfa2cd67d23de977362753449c02d38 which was without new lines and paragraphs, etc. when I got it
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Jeena and tantek meant that it's difficult to impossible to follow
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[sciencemonkey] Tell Loqi that I wrote it that way due to time shortage in writing an email. I wanted to be polite to Jeena and not take too long a time to reply. Lack of sectioning and lack of time to search for quotes does not equal "pseudoscience". I am also busy both studying astronomy before the imminent exam at the University of Gothenburg, and publicizing Scientific Method Wiki as well as adding some more content to it. Part of the idea of the wiki i
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[sciencemonkey] people to write hypotheses and theories, getting help with finding links to empirical data from people who know empirical data. This has the potential to allow people who know data relevant for each other's hypotheses to reference-help each other, instead of obstructively demanding the same person to always do both!
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Jeena [sciencemonkey], Loqi is the bot which does some things like retelling something when someone comes back online when they were offline
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[sciencemonkey] If Loqi is a both, how could it comment on the length and structure of the gist and assume it to be nonsense?
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Jeena you don't need to tell him the stuff, if then you want use: tell tantek ... then Loqi will tell him when he comes back online, I guess he is asleep right now
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[sciencemonkey] Do you mean it was tantek that judged the gist by its form?
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Jeena it didn't, tantek left me a message with "tell jeena ..." and when I came back online Loqi the bot just repeated what tantek said
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Jeena yes
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[sciencemonkey] Yes to what question?
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Jeena that it was tantek
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bignose [sciencemonkey]: advice for next time: if you're short on time to make a full reply readable, instead compose a short reply.
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bignose bashing through a long reply, badly formatted, doesn't make the person feel respected, it makes them feel overwhelmed and disrespected (because the message isn't formatted for readability).
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[jeremycherfas] bignose+
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bignose much better to say “thanks, I have read your message and will compose a full reply at [future time]”.
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bignose this will also have the advantage of distinguishing you from ranty wall-of-text writers who in fact don't respect the reader because their ideas are Urgent and Important.
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petermolnar ! tell [sciencemonkey] this channel is not just slack, but IRC. Loqi as an irc bot ( type "who is Loqi?" ) which handles commands, like leaving messages for other users. So when you type "!tell xyz", Loqi picks it up and when user "xyz" returns - types something -, Loqi plays the message back.
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Loqi.me
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petermolnar hm
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petermolnar I see you like Loqi so I put a Loqi in your Loqi problem...
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petermolnar !tell [sciencemonkey] this channel is not just slack, but IRC. Loqi as an irc bot ( type "who is [Loqi]?" without the [] ) which handles commands, like leaving messages for other users. So when you type "!tell xyz", Loqi picks it up and when user "xyz" returns - types something -, Loqi plays the message back.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Loqi.me
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petermolnar nested Loqi
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j4y_funabashi morning
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Loqi good morning
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indieweb
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@bennettscience Here's a post on how to configure android apps to post to your @withknown instance. http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/sharing-from-the-indieweb-on-mobile-android-with-apps-and (twitter.com/_/status/805797246776344577)
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GWG If you are attempting to check-in using a Micropub client, how do you handle displaying possible venues?
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snarfed GWG: see http://indieweb.org/venue and existing silo UIs
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GWG snarfed, I don't see anything about Micropub though
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GWG I was wondering if anyone had brainstormed about that.
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GWG I am making progress on my location plugin. I have to think about hooking it into Micropub
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GWG I'd like it to at the least, generate the display.
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snarfed maybe make a micropub query extension for it? https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#query-extensions
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Micropub
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snarfed and re UI, lots of examples on that wiki page
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GWG I've been looking at the page. I just wanted to know if anyone actually did it with Micropub now.
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GWG For now, I am still working on fixing the existing functionality.
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[schmarty] @GWG i have been thinking about this as well. i have used Quill's event post a couple of times but was disappointed that the location field is just a text field.
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[schmarty] for the first couple of event posts i made i manually created geo URLs of the form geo:LAT,LON;VENUENAME and set up my templates to render an openstreetmap image of the location
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[schmarty] not long after, i started a small venues lookup table that turns the name into actual address info, so where that is available my site will display it.
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@ade_oshineye IOT means filling your life/house with servers that you have to maintain and patch. That sounds like work. Why would I want this? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/805804365382492160)
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[schmarty] a micropub extension sounds like a promising approach. thanks, snarfed!
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GWG schmarty, I am interested to see what you propose
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aaronpk I've always thought the venue search would make a good query extension
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GWG aaronpk, that is why I asked. I wasn't sure if anyone had thought about Micropub and venues.
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GWG I also want to contemplate venues with no defined location. I believe rhiaro does that.
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GWG Like 'Home' and 'Work'
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG i use "location_name" for those
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ben_thatmustbeme but that was just me experimenting some time ago
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GWG I sometimes want to have a 'private' venue.
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Sebsel So a venue endpoint? Give it a geo:coordinate and it gives you a list of nearby venues?
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Sebsel I do like the private venues
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GWG sebsel, what are your private venues?
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Sebsel I don't have any now, but I would say 'home', and probably homes of friends and families.
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Sebsel they would need an url on my own domain, I think, that makes them more private, and that makes sure I use the right ones
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Sebsel others could be refered to by urls on other domains
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Sebsel (thinking of venues like a 'h-venue'...)
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GWG h-venue is not necessary
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GWG Venues are h-card
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KevinMarks So you're using p-name in your venue for your short mnemonic name like "home" or "work"?
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KevinMarks HCard previously had type/value for eg phone numbers, but that was dropped.
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KevinMarks Maybe sub h-cards for a person would make sense for those kind of things.
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tantek what's the use case?
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gRegorLove Morning, indieweb
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[schmarty] tantek: not sure about GWG's use case that kicked off this discussion, but i'd like to have venue location information available when creating new events or check-ins
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tantek sure, that's the primary use case so far for posting /venue posts on your own site
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GWG I want to have some venues where I don't strictly define the location.
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tantek instead of stating what you don't want to do, restate that in positive terms of what you want to do
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GWG I want to sometimes be vague
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tantek do you have an example?
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GWG And not post the exact location. but still have a unique venue
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GWG Home. I don't want to show my exact home address.
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Not sure if this is an intricacy of http status codes or a bug, but in micropub.rocks when I return 202 on post creation, it's following the Location header and returning 404, because the post isn't public yet. When I return 201 it doesn't follow the location header though.
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tantek GWG, is there a section /venue#Brainstorming about vague venues yet? If not, definitely start one with that use-case!
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aaronpk gRegorLove: oh yeah i saw that... that sounds weird
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GWG I will.
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gRegorLove Are the chat log permalinks based on UTC?
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aaronpk yes
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[schmarty] rhiaro has an entry in the indieweb examples section of /venue about vague places (home, office, etc)
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gRegorLove I was going to link that but it didn't work since it gave it today's date instead of last night :)
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GWG I saw rhiaro's stuff, but she has more than I might.
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GWG I suppose the bigger question is the specificity of the venue.
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GWG Do I want to show the neighborhood, city, etc.
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gRegorLove What is venue?
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Loqi A venue is a named location or address/geo that is typically used for checkins https://indieweb.org/venue
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gRegorLove GWG: "Show" meaning, as the text? Or a map?
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GWG Gregorlove, both.
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GWG Convey in my page.
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GWG Displaying location includes microformats and visually hidden data.
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gRegorLove Another example: on instagram I added the location of a bay since I was on the waterfront. Big, kinda vague "venue" (or region)
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gRegorLove Sounds like you'd want to track the venue name, lat/lng (even if spoofed to be nearby, not precise, and a precision or range, which determines how big a map you might show.
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gRegorLove throws a ) in that sentence
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GWG I'm not sure how to determine my parameters there
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GWG I figured I would build some of the tools and tweak the display as I used it.
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gRegorLove How do you mean parameters? In code?
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GWG Well, partly UI.
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GWG I'd like to be able to easily decide how specific I want my display to be.
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GWG For some locations, I want precision, for some I deliberately don't.
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GWG Let's say I am visiting the SPARK Museum of Electrical Invention...I want that to be a precise location.
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GWG But if I'm in my house, I don't want precision, because I don't want people to come find me.
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gRegorLove I'd start as simple as possible. Start with just text. The precision thing really only applies if you're displaying a map.
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GWG I'm working on the text now.
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gRegorLove Since the lat/lng and address are optional
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GWG The non-venue version.
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gRegorLove Nice localization with SPARK museum ;)
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GWG gRegorLove: I try.
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gRegorLove I still need to go visit there
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GWG I look forward to your post.
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GWG But my current design has Lat/Lng using the HTML5 geolocation API, and does a reverse lookup to get the neighborhood.
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GWG The old version had the option of Don't Display, Show Region, Show Locality, or Full Address.
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gRegorLove Ah. Sounds more complicated than necessary
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KevinMarks This is sounding familiar. I remember arguing for late, long, radius and tantek arguing for human readable names
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KevinMarks G+ has selective visibility by viewer for location
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KevinMarks http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-brainstorming#radius.2Fzoom
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Loqi geo brainstorming
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/max_read/status/805577516362698752
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@max_read a clippy for twitter that pops up every time someone starts a tweet with "1/" and offers to set up a wordpress for them (twitter.com/_/status/805577516362698752)
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GWG Hmm..
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Loqi [indieweb] "How to Own & Display Your Twitter Archive on Your Website in Under 10 Minutes" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-12-05 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/how-to-own-display-your-twitter-archive-on-your-website-in-under-10-minutes-e04e2cf181f2?source=rss----12b80d28f892---4
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Loqi [indieweb] "How to Own & Display Your Twitter Archive on Your Website in Under 10 Minutes" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-12-05 http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/05/how-to-own-display-your-twitter-archive-on-your-website-in-under-10-minutes/
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@ChrisAldrich How to Own & Display Your Twitter Archive on Your Website in Under 10 Minutes http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/05/how-to-own-display-your-twitter-archive-on-your-website-in-under-10-minutes/ #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/805883953014013952)
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Loqi [indieweb] "How to Own & Display Your Twitter Archive on Your Website in Under 10 Minutes" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-12-05 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/how-to-own-display-your-twitter-archive-on-your-website-in-under-10-minutes-e04e2cf181f2?source=rss-f9e3747f5480------2
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Loqi [indieweb] "How to Own & Display Your Twitter Archive on Your Website in Under 10 Minutes" by ChrisAldrich on 2016-12-05 https://medium.com/boffo-socko/how-to-own-display-your-twitter-archive-on-your-website-in-under-10-minutes-e04e2cf181f2?source=rss------twitter-5
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