#indieweb 2017-03-28

2017-03-28 UTC
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tantek good evening #indieweb
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tantek checks logs
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GWG Does anyone have fragments on their webmention source URLs?
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snarfed GWG: bridgy source page
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snarfed GWG: bridgy source page
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snarfed dammit :P
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tantek lol
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snarfed bridgy source pages' u-urls for likes and reposts (and maybe rsvps) often have fragments
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snarfed u-urls, not source urls...but hopefully we're all using u-url for most things anyway, right? right? :P
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tantek apparently IRC too ;)
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GWG snarfed: I got target fragments in Webmention the plugin, but there is no issue with source fragments I can see.
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GWG They were always supported, but I was wondering if anyone had any.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: anyone who sends webmentions for marginalia ;)
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GWG KartikPrabhu, wouldn't that be a Target Fragment?
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aaronpk media fragments saying my song was used in a podcast where the source URL links to the time offset of when the song appears
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KartikPrabhu ok then anyone receiving marginalia
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KartikPrabhu hmmm no that doesn't work either!
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KartikPrabhu source fragments seems weird
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GWG That was my point
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KartikPrabhu now I am wondering why one would send a webmention from a fragment from a normal h-entry (discounting aaronpk's example)
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aaronpk why would you discount my example?
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aaronpk it would be basically saying "I mentioned you *here*" with a link not just to the URL, but also to the spot on the page the link appears
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: simply to restrict to text posts. your example is a legitimarte example. also has anyone sent such webmentions?
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aaronpk i think martymcguire[m] maybe sent one, but i'm not sure which of his podcasts did
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aaronpk but i think it makes sense for text posts too. especially if your blog post is super long, or has a bunch of headers or something.
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GWG aaronpk, I am not. Still looking for more clarity
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: also is it useful for the receiver to distinguish between the fragment and the whole post in such cases?
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KartikPrabhu for target fragments, marginalia seems to be a use-case
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aaronpk only in that if you show the comment, the link back could take you right to the right spot
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: fair enough
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: that is actually a good point. source with fragments will link to the actual place but will retain the context in the whole post!
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martymcguire[m] aaronpk: I haven't sent those mentions-with-fragments yet, just regular mentions. I could figure out a workflow for doing that with telegraph I think.
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aaronpk i suppose the next question is whether i should treat a URL with a fragment ID as a distinct mention or not
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GWG Do we have any examples of this, save media fragments in the wild?
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martymcguire[m] Basically: go to time offset, pause to let the JS update the URL, load the URL in telegraph, send just for the audio post in question, repeat for all fragments
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I think I do already by default. my webmention receiver matches the complete source URL
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aaronpk i think mine does too. is that the desired behavior?
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aaronpk problem is I would render them the same, so they would look like duplicates
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I would think yes
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KartikPrabhu if they are not replies then I would render them the same too
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KartikPrabhu my replies link to the actual full URL
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GWG I think the WordPress receiver would treat them as separate items also
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GWG But not display them
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GWG as different things
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@gRegorLove Webmention for @ProcessWire plugin updated to v1.1.3: https://github.com/gRegorLove/ProcessWire-Webmention #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/846578227061645312)
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Loqi [indieweb] " Growing list of educators & researchers who are using #indieweb. Who am I missing? #HigherEd #edtech #phdchat #DoOO https://twitter.com/ChrisAldrich/lists/educators-in-indieweb/members " by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-27 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/growing-list-of-educators-researchers-who-are-using-indieweb-who
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@sl007 Wenn "Sagen, was ist" nur noch hinter hohen Facebook Mauern geht ... http://redecentralize.org #spon https://indieweb.org/2017/Düsseldorf @DerSPIEGEL (twitter.com/_/status/846650827557212160)
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dgold omfsm...
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dgold Pythonista has the python Requests Library...
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dgold oops, sorry, wrong channel
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[jeremycherfas] Morning dgold
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dgold hey jeremy
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@kevinmarks Day 8: A specification for rel=canonical, by request #100DaysOfIndieWeb: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/day-8-a-specification-for-relcanonical-by-request-100daysofindieweb (twitter.com/_/status/846682110379278336)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Day 8: A specification for rel=canonical, by request #100DaysOfIndieWeb" by Kevin Marks on 2017-03-28 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/day-8-a-specification-for-relcanonical-by-request-100daysofindieweb
mindB, martymcguire[m], JulianFoad[m], plindner, M-hotzeplotz, SpEcHiDe, jcgregorio[m], afrogeek[m], pniedzielski[m], TheGillies, Guest86807[m], dgold[m], crasch[m], M-mxuribe, garlox[m], jaduncan[m], R2ZER0, friedcell and [kevinmarks] joined the channel
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[kevinmarks] This ampit bookmarklet is really handy, especially on mobile.
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@hex_pm webmentions (0.2.2): A Webmentions (https://indieweb.org/Webmention) module for Elixir https://hex.pm/packages/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/846702277750484992)
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@hex_pm webmentions (0.2.3): A Webmentions (https://indieweb.org/Webmention) module for Elixir https://hex.pm/packages/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/846707638788284416)
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[keithjgrant] Does anybody use any interesting strategies for displaying reposts? 9 times out of 10, it’s usually a twitter retweet (via brid.gy) or someone sharing it with a comment that is simply the title of the post -- so in these cases it makes sense to just show the author name & the url. But that 1/10 times they add a comment which I'd like to display
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[keithjgrant] But I haven't been able to come up with a good strategy for distinguishing meaningful comments from the others
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[keithjgrant] (i'm getting my data from wm.io, fwiw)
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dgold [keithjgrant]: I've never heard of wm.io -- is that a twitter service?
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@hex_pm webmentions (0.2.4): A Webmentions (https://indieweb.org/Webmention) module for Elixir https://hex.pm/packages/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/846709680978063360)
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sknebel [keithjgrant]: I'd suggest collecting examples, and then trying to come up with a comparison algorithm... something like "if it contains words that are not the original title and are not "repost", then display" or something like that
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sknebel also, I'm not sure if the repost-with-comment is considered purely a repost or not, e.g. the twitter example on /repost and /reposts all show the "plain" form
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sknebel dgold: wm.io probably means webmention.io, a webmention receiver service by aaron
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[keithjgrant] yeah, webmention.io
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[keithjgrant] quoted tweets sure raise some interesting questions. is it a comment? is it a repost? It seems context-sensitive
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snarfed [keithjgrant]: well worn question. :P e.g. https://indieweb.org/quotation#Instead_use , https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2017-03-03#t1488565394477000
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sknebel I knew I had seen discussion about that ;)
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sknebel in the case of backfeed from twitter there is of course the issue that retweet is the only tool twitter provides for various use cases
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sknebel and you see retweets used to provide reply context, as public bookmarks/recommendations ("go read this!"), ...
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miklb_ right, with the WP bridgy publish plugin, a quote tweet can't really be a quote tweet & a reply, so it currently is a quote
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GWG miklb: How may the Bridgy Public plugin serve you?
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miklb great except I can't use the retrieve button due to the JS error
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GWG The whole point of the plugin is to turn artisinally crafted microformats into mass produced tweets.
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GWG miklb: I have to figure that one out. I have a working theory, but I need to learn more JS.
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GWG The extent of my JS is a fill in the blanks sort of thing.
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miklb same
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miklb the reason I suggested the https issue is that I don't get that on my dev install locally
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GWG Basically, all the JS code does is request an object from the PHP code and set form fields based on it.
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GWG My likely solution is to delve into that a bit. Also, I do have redesign on that area I want to do, to allow an autofill when triggered by Micropub and such
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miklb if i get time, I'll try to see if I can do some deeper debugging on my live site. Juggling a few things at the moment.
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tantek listens in on the quote vs reply conversation
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gRegorLove Good morning, indieweb
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: HWC Bellingham next week? (first Wednesday of the month)
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tantek catches up on last night's logs
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tantek not sure about the use-cases for sending a webmention with a source URL with a fragment
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tantek also not sure how it would make the most sense to display them etc.
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tantek smells like a solution looking for a problem, or plumbing looking for a use-case
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aaronpk really? I thought the example of time offset for a podcast was pretty useful
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tantek oops I meant source URL with a fragment into *text*
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tantek mediafragments make sense yes for that use-case
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tantek I think aaronpk's concern about "would look like duplicates" is a good example
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tantek er, good real problem that could drive design
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tantek another UI challenge
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tantek right now when a post shows "Mentions" (beyond specific comments, likes etc.)
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tantek if a user clicks on one of those mentions links to go to the original, if it's a small note it works fine (the mention in context is likely obvious), but if the original response is long text, perhaps an article with sections and subheadings, and LOTS of mentions, then the context of the mention is lost / difficult to find
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@egoexpress Switched my @withknown site https://known.stierand.org to use the current dev version from Github. Now for some plugin debugging. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/846789187487465472)
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tantek now what if that long article mentions a post multiple times? e.g. in multiple sections?
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tantek if the "mentions" section of that post were to only link to the whole article, or to just one of the specific fragments, then the fact that the article mentioned a post multiple times would be lost
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tantek so to back that up a step into a how question:
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tantek if an article mentions another post multiple times, what would the author of that original post want to display?
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tantek (or a what question rather)
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tantek one thought: if an article linked to one of my posts in multiple contexts, it would be nice to be able to indicate that on *my* post, e.g. in such a Mentions section:
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tantek * Article Name (^1, ^2, ^3)
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tantek where Article Name would link to the whole article, and the ^n links would link to fragments of the paragraph or section of the specific mentions of my post
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tantek Ideally that's what I'd like to show on my original post from a presentation perspective
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tantek and I think such a design could also address aaronpk's concern of "would look like duplicates" - as I too would only want "Article Name" to be listed *once* in my mentions
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tantek (no matter how many times it links to my post)
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tantek (hence the ^1... ^n parenthetical links to potentially list the specific mentions in context for easier navigation / discoverability)
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tantek like you might see in a traditional print book Index at the end, Some Topic, p. 17, 23, 58
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tantek the Index is both saying "Some Topic" is mentioned in the book, and the specific page numbers where it was mentioned (so you can go look at just those specific pages instead of having to search the whole book for the mention)
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tantek mentions*
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Loqi [indieweb] "Indieweb Quote of the Day: Vladimir Bukovsky On Samizdat" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-28 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/28/indieweb-quote-of-the-day-vladimir-bukovsky-on-samizdat/
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@ChrisAldrich #Indieweb Quote of the Day: V. Bukovsky narrowly defines Samizdat, Russian word that translates as self-published http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/28/indieweb-quote-of-the-day-vladimir-bukovsky-on-samizdat/ (twitter.com/_/status/846793372786319361)
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu one possible use-case for SOURCE URLs with fragments, curious what you think: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-03-28#t1490725161795000
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [tantek] right now when a post shows "Mentions" (beyond specific comments, likes etc.)
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[dgold] If posting a reply-to to a website via webmention, and additionally POSSEing that response to silos, how should one contextualise the POSSEd elements?
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[dgold] Or, indeed, should one POSSE the reply at all?
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tantek dgold, glad you asked. lots of prior work on this. short answer yes, one should, and thread in that silo accordingly. longer answer, e.g. for @-replies: https://indieweb.org/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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[dgold] Thanks tantek, I was thinking also about a reply to (from personal experience today) a persons Known instance. I POSSEd that response to silos (twitter and pnut)
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[dgold] My reply post is here, it links to the two silos:
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[dgold] https://hylozoist.ascraeus.org/2017/best-of-luck-with-that-bjorn-if-you-get-some
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Loqi [Daniel Goldsmith] Best of luck with that Bjorn; if you get some headway with the reactions plugin, I can think of a number of people who'd be interested
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[dgold] The twitter post gives context (because the Idno people are awesome) extracted from the known post I was replying to.
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[dgold] The pnut post, on the contrary (does not)
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aaronpk by "context" you mean the full contents of your post?
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aaronpk on twitter, the twitter card?
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tantek on twitter I'd presume the tweet thread as context
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tantek as the original reply context we modeled :)
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aaronpk ah, the reply context
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aaronpk I wouldn't have POSSE'd that to pnut
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[dgold] Yeah, I can see that now
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[dgold] To be honest, I just wanted to see that my plugin was posseing replies to pnut at all
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[dgold] Which got me started on thinking about this.
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tantek what is pnut?
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Loqi pnut is a short-messaging social network silo in which messages have a limited length, and you can follow folks, and be followed by folks https://indieweb.org/pnut
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gRegorLove Hah, I thought at first pnut was someone's handle
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gRegorLove Interesting they're using Patreon to fund development.
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gRegorLove What is Patreon?
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Loqi Patreon is a crowd-based, recurring funding site to support and pay content creators https://indieweb.org/Patreon
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gRegorLove [dgold]: Have you (or anyone) suggested they add mf2 to pnut?
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tantek that is interesting, since it's an ongoing payment model instead of just one-time like kickstarter
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gRegorLove Also "When you invite someone, they are associated with you in the user tree and you may be responsible for them if they abuse the network."
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tantek yes that's clever
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aaronpk heh, it's like the opposite of the viral growth pattern of web 2.0
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tantek gmail was invite only beta for a while
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tantek I think they used that in security recovery!
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bear but am I also now beholden to anyone below the people i've invited? how many layers down the tree am I responsible for?
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@ChrisAldrich @physcocode Given @drupal codebase/structure, perhaps you could backport to @withknown? It would be great to see more #indieweb in @drupal! (twitter.com/_/status/846838125401903104)
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Loqi [indieweb] "@physcocode Given @drupal codebase/structure, perhaps you could backport to @withknown? It would be great to see more #indieweb in @drupal!" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-28 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/physcocode-given-drupal-codebasestructure-perhaps-you-could-backport-to-withknown
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tantek bear I'd assume 1
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[dgold] Per the founder of the network, your accountable for your invites.
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[dgold] s/your/you're
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[dgold] Fscking autocorrect
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[dgold] has been using gmail since day1; friend is (now) an emea veep @ google
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tantek chrisaldrich wow I've never seen the "9+ to confirm" UI in Swarm - maybe that's Android only?
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aaronpk i've seen it on iOS too
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aaronpk check your settings for "show check-in suggestions in history"
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[kevinmarks] You always check in everywhere tantek, no wonder you haven't seen it
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aaronpk lol
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[kevinmarks] The reason gmail was invite only ta first was that they sharded by user and had a limited number of servers so needed to throttle growth
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tantek aaronpk, where in settings? it's not in iOS Settings / Swarm
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tantek oh just found the subtle gear icon right in the middle of the profile screen duh
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tantek Show Check-in Suggestions in History is ON
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aaronpk well you do check in a lot, so it may not have any further suggestions
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tantek hmm, I'm going to turn off the coin sounds, I think that's too distracting to everyone else
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aaronpk yes! thank goodness
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tantek it should do check-ins by distance, not time
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tantek er, not frequency
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tantek *suggested checkins
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aaronpk it's also possible the iPod GPS doesn't get enough location data in the background to make any suggestions
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aaronpk er, iPod location services. there is no GPS.
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tantek too bad it can't bluetooth it from my watch which is more accurate than iPhone GPS :P
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aaronpk that's actually not that far fetched. there are external GPS devices you can buy that connect via bluetooth to iOS and then all the iOS location services use that data instead
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tantek wait what - how do you configure iOS to use an external GPS device?
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aaronpk if the device advertises that it supplies GPS data, then when you pair it it just goes
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aaronpk and it's at the system level, so all apps will start using that
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aaronpk a common use for this is for pilots to use a better GPS receiver and then pull up maps on an ipad in the plane
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tantek that makes total sense
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aaronpk https://bad-elf.com/pages/aviation
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aaronpk "The majority of iPad devices sold by Apple are the Wi-Fi only models, which do not have an internal GPS receiver. Our products provide rock-solid GPS to these iPads and allow you to see your own-ship position in any EFB app."
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[kevinmarks] Wouldn't it be great if passenger planes just broadcast that to the devices on board
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tantek interesting, I just paired my iPod to my watch from iPod Bluetooth settings
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tantek now how do I tell it to use the GPS from my watch?
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aaronpk if the watch supports it, it will be doing it already
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tantek goes for a walk
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tantek I can't tell if it made any difference. I may need a realtime location info graphing app to see
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tantek also I think my watch turns off bluetooth and GPS automatically to save battery, so I have to figure out how to put it in a "report location continuously" mode
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tantek it's a Suunto in case anyone has any ideas
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@100daysindieweb Day 98: Importing Past Checkins with OwnYourSwarm #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/03/28/6/day98-ownyourswarm-import (twitter.com/_/status/846874392801923072)
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