2020/Pop-ups/Garden-And-Stream

 The Garden and the Stream  was a session at IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2020.




 * Notes archived from: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/GardenAndStream
 * Demos

IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2020 Session: The Garden and the Stream When: 2020-04-25 10:00

We’ll be discussing and brainstorming ideas related to wikis and the IndieWeb, user interfaces, functionalities, examples of wikis and how they differ from blogs and other social media interfaces, and everyones’ ideas surrounding these. Bring your ideas and let’s discuss.

Participants
(All participants were remote; according to the logs there were a total of 35 participants throughout the event.)


 * (session facilitator)
 * website: boffosocko.com
 * wikis: tw.boffosocko.com (using TiddlyWiki and wiki.chrisaldrich.net using MediaWiki


 * twMat
 * https://github.com/twMat
 * longtime user of TiddlyWiki
 * interested how other things compare to tw


 * (unsure if present in call or just stopped by temporarily?)
 * (unsure if present in call or just stopped by temporarily?)


 * h0p3
 * https://philosopher.life/#2020.04.25%20-%20Indieweb%3A%20Wiki%20Event%20Notes
 * uses TiddlyWiki


 * website in WordPress - https://doubleloop.net
 * wiki staticly published plain text using org-mode - https://commonplace.doubleloop.net
 * wiki staticly published plain text using org-mode - https://commonplace.doubleloop.net


 * Ton Zylstra - zylstra.org
 * wiki next to blog for a long time (wakkawiki)
 * had wiki as desktop entrypoint for notes for a long time
 * used to crosspost from blog to wiki
 * now using wordpress pages as wiki pages
 * interested in the flow between the blog and the wiki
 * interested in the flow between the blog and the wiki


 * - The IndieWeb WordPress guy and the subject of a fan club run by, Lurking


 * David Somers aka User:Omz13.com
 * developer in Luxembourg - building my own indieweb-friendly at https://meldingstuff.com - used wikis a lot during my undergrad and grad courses - thinking of how a wiki can be incorporated into my site


 * Desmond Rivet
 * Developer in Montreal


 * https://www.svenknebel.de


 * Bill Seitz
 * blog has been wiki since 2002
 * built flask/python wiki http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/WikiFlux
 * wrote ebook on PrivateWiki http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/HackYourLifeWithAPrivateWikiNotebookGettingThingsDoneAndOtherSystems


 * Bruno Winck
 * started with c2
 * likes building something complex with simplicity
 * what is the link between blogs and wikis?


 * Kevin Faaborg
 * interested in getting static site generator to work with file:///




 * Sarah Hibner aka Hibs
 * I view my wiki as a silva rerum (forest of things) mainly for digital bookmark organization
 * Markdown-based, informal wiki
 * got into wikis via c2
 * git-based wiki system
 * using wikis for digital bookmarking


 * Angelo Gladding
 * found indieweb throughmicroformats
 * interested in smenatics of wiki pages
 * note -> article -> image -> wiki post coalescing everything
 * create wiki pages out of chat convo's as often key stuff is mentioned as side remark


 * got into wiki via Meatballwiki and Helmut Leitner (Pattern Language and WikiFractality explorations http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/WikiFractality)
 * https://ducamp.me using MediaWiki
 * R&D personal diary (offline use during transoceanic navigations) + Social networks during anchorage
 * Role : designer, educator.
 * Role : designer, educator.


 * Ian Jones - using Roam


 * was in IWC Portland last year;
 * was in IWC Portland last year;


 * (https://vanderven.se/martijn/)
 * old time nvAlt user, big MediaWiki user.


 * just lurning and listening, no wiki

Joining late:


 * Anne-Laure Le Cunff


 * had a wiki of book reviews of wikispaces maintained for 10 years that was lsot
 * uses a personal wiki at https://longthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com
 * rebuilding children's book review wiki at childrensliterature.jgregorymcverry.com
 * includes a wiki using wikimedia like https://wiki.goifnetowrk.com when setting up a community
 * prefers dokuwiki over mediawiki to reduce admin tax
 * added micformats to dokuwiki install
 * added webmentions to dokuwiki install
 * added webmentions to dokuwiki install

General discussion

 * Distinction between wikis and commonplace books?
 * daily diary along with receipts, quotes, etc.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book
 * long history through the Renaissance and further back
 * commonplace books used to document entire family histories, too (e.g.long view documentation)


 * Blogs and Wikis in combination


 * using WordPress for blogging but has become using post from KicksCondor about Wikis and referencing
 * Roam Research has been a new "hotness" for the wiki space / notetaking space (in the past 6 months or so)
 * the idea of a stream versus a garden (cross reference Mike Caulfield's article below)
 * when and where to post to stream vs garden


 * - going back to revisit something and adding to it is a wiki concept
 * zettelkasten - translates as note card in German
 * https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zettelkasten see also https://zettelkasten.de/
 * smallest atom of an idea
 * you can then reshuffle them into other configurations or aggregate them into bigger things
 * Chris uses wiki for facts and blog for thoughts/analysis


 * Desmond
 * uses wiki for crystalline pieces of information: example: recipe
 * WP distinction between pages and posts
 * stories about a recipe will be a blog post
 * if you end up editing the content of the article often
 * might suggest it should be a wiki post
 * what if the wiki post could update and send notifications to subscribers about changes to ingredients or methods?


 * Sarah Hibner
 * temporal distinction stands out
 * how long something lasts before it needs updating
 * long now and short now - length oftime we expect information to last
 * short now - more recent - last week, last month
 * long now - part of 'the long web' efforts - see also longevity


 * Bruno Winck
 * experiment: everything goes on the wiki, with a flag to say whether something goes on to the stream
 * just a question of - is this page public or not?
 * half-baked posts, maybe it is incubated further
 * should we keep two posts? half-baked has the historical interest - the origin of the thinking
 * redirect the notes into the new full post?
 * embed short blog posts into one longer one


 * chris
 * embedding / transclusion / unfurling
 * stub pages that have no content of their own, but are transcluded into one bigger piece


 * Bruno
 * one problem is no narrative between the transcluded / embedded pieces


 * twMat
 * TiddlyWiki says everything should be as small as possible https://tiddlywiki.com/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers


 * Bruno
 * substitute of this text easier to embed elsewhere
 * public-facing vs private-facing contexts (is the thing for oneself or meant for others to read?)


 * h0p3
 * unified and chaotic garden of detachable and reusable nodes
 * building molecules from atoms, stacks from heaps
 * first order editing and reuse, of just the tiddler
 * second order editing of the structure


 * martijn
 * likes the term cultivating, gardening
 * once finished a blog post, not going to go back and edit it (other than minor edits)
 * wiki: lets go back and change these posts


 * anne-laure
 * 'how blogs broke the web' by amy hoy (sp?) https://stackingthebricks.com/how-blogs-broke-the-web/
 * blogs stay set in stone
 * wiki is evergreen notes, therefore has a 'last edited' date, not a published date.


 * chris - there's a problem with the 'publish' button
 * adds friction into posting - wikis fix this to some degree
 * pushing the two back together
 * the concept of the Webmention
 * 'things that link to this page' exists as functionality in MediaWiki
 * Roam Research has resurfaced some interest in backlinks / bi-directional links
 * example of bi-directional links built with Gatsby.js https://www.ianjones.us/notes/digital-garden
 * thinking of webmentions as a way to introduce bidirectional links between sites, not just internally within a site or wiki


 * h0p3
 * TiddlyWiki gives you bi-directional links


 * Tox network - h0p3 (so one doesn't need to own a domain)
 * h0p3
 * part of the job of the wiki is about finding out what is salient
 * moderation is key


 * chris
 * webmentions can make use of context of the particular post, so as not to overload the linked to site with info
 * backlinks (or bi-directional links) has made people really get behind Roam


 * Bill says: might want to look at "Wikity" merge of Ward's SFW and WordPress: http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/WikiTy
 * FedWiki allows for a way of placing a page in a galaxy of in and out directions
 * Wikity is/was the WordPress version of that


 * chris
 * TiddlyWiki allows you to drag and drop tiddlers between tws
 * links to OERs
 * people write / build articles, chapters, books that can be reused in other contexts


 * Roam Research
 * silo - you don't own your data
 * ease of use in exchange for the data


 * TiddlyWiki
 * an open source version of Roam in a sense, particularly with TiddlyBlink installed with it.
 * h0p3 uses TW5Bob for open editing on TiddlyWiki
 * TW5Bob is a plugin that makes tiddlywiki a multi-user wiki on node


 * Hibs
 * Gitbook - provides ux/ui for layperson who wants to update information and click. The service does the sync with the back end to Git
 * Social bookmarking - wikis - interconnecting
 * DIKUW pyramid - ?? Knowledge ? Wisdom


 * Angelo Gladding has gotten his site to be able to log into the IndieWeb wiki and then post edits on his own website and then syndicate those edits to the IndieWeb wiki.
 * He spoke about how it's set up as an edit post and an overview of what it does


 * LewisCowles
 * RE: webmentions hiding / showing
 * showing is optional, but filtering != censoring
 * Nothing to be lost as having link to as "inbox" / spam with value picked out
 * Benefit of WebMention being that it gives or can provide at some point authorship information which may work around signing in and account creation


 * Resilio sync to syncronize small sections of wikis from one wiki to another


 * Experiment between h0p3, KicksCondor, and others: Hypertext 2020
 * The master record is kept by hand
 * h0p3's not sure how to automate it


 * Indieweb.xyz


 * Every Noise at Once - visualization of sound space on Spotify


 * Corpus linguistics as an academic area of research studying large bodies of text


 * h0p3 looking at a wiki corpus large enough to do AI on it to recreate a person
 * 64megabytes of plain text to do that.
 * Black Mirror episode - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Right_Back


 * Wikis as memory palaces
 * is doing this.... also to some extent

Memory uses, flashcards, memory palaces

 * Neuracache - Notion Evernote Roam Research TiddlyWiki into flash cards for spaced repetition
 * using sm2 algorithm
 * Anne-Laure mentioned it, but doesn't recommend it at the moment


 * Anki - flashcard system used for spaced repetition


 * Mnemosyne - another flashcard system


 * Marshal Mcluhan - externalizing technology
 * notes the idea of McLuhan rebels or rebels? (with differing pronunciations/meanings)


 * Wikitrails - give it two pages and it would create a path between them


 * meme-place - AR app to put physical places into one's house


 * 'Building a Second Brain' by Tiago Forte - a process for knowledge management, essentially a personal wiki


 * h0p3
 * xo brain dump
 * the wiki is a story telling device to retell
 * automated versions of oneself
 * spending time building search tools has been helpful
 * tags are a gunky tool for relating things and building heirarchies


 * Lewis Cowles:
 * tags/taxonomies
 * synonyms for understanding
 * example: the idea of transclusion on wikis and embedding on blogs
 * queue based learning with landmarks
 * making discoverability
 * h0p3 aliases for implied vocabulary and be able to change the names over time


 * folksonomies


 * Early Yahoo was a directory
 * Google looked at things as a big pile
 * links in and out and which get clicked...
 * own your own search... how can one use the data of outbound links one uses


 * twMat - great community around [{TiddlyWiki]]


 * webmention
 * anne-laure has avoided using them so far, to avoid having unwanted content appearing
 * but now knowing that it can be filtered is more keen to use


 * Who has webmentions the TidlyWiki IndieWeb page?
 * curl -s "https://webmention.io/api/mentions.jf2?target=https://indieweb.org/TiddlyWiki" | jq .children[].url
 * https://boffosocko.com/2020/04/04/self-hosting-tiddlywiki-with-github-pages/
 * https://martymcgui.re/2020/03/19/indieweb-nyc-aka-virtual-hwc-us-east-meetup-2020-03-18-wrap-up/
 * https://boffosocko.com/2020/03/19/55769388/

> The receiver SHOULD check that target is a valid resource for which it can accept Webmentions.
 * Point on WebMentions
 * Anyone could set up a non webmentions.io service to accept source and target and register webmentions for you.
 * Not sure what this means? A webmention sender will look at the receiving page to see where to send to. Martijn’s website accepts webmentions for any target, but means basically nothing, as no sneder knows about the endpoint unless it is found on the receiving site.
 * this seems like more of an argument about discoverability than anything else.
 * All the barriers are facades using IndieAuth.
 * What Webmention endpoint uses IndieAuth?
 * Webmention.io uses indieauth the spec, with indielogin.com the service. The service indieauth is confusingly named.
 * a webmention sender SHOULD look at a receiving page. The core parts of registering, display and receiving are ALL decoupled.


 * TiddlyWiki as an alternative to Roam Research
 * roam has some security flaws that means you may not be comfortable with some data there
 * tiddlywiki might be too complicated at present for some people to get started with it
 * tiddlyblink on glitch as a way to quickly set up tw with bidirectional links https://tomcritchlow.com/2020/04/20/tiddlyblink-glitch/


 * martijn
 * do you want people to contribute to your wiki?
 * if the answer is yes, then you will need something that is always on, or rely on some 3rd party system


 * wikis for digital bookmarks
 * excerpting, media preservation, and wikis, they all interlink
 * Wikity was primarily a social bookmarking


 * book: why does information grow?
 * the personbyte - average amount of information a single person could know or understand
 * multiple personbytes are needed to create new knowledge


 * angelo
 * the recent changes part of the indieweb wiki is kind of the 'stream' of the indieweb wiki
 * is currently POSSEing to indieweb wiki
 * https://indieweb.org/User:Lahacker.net/POSSE_test
 * Posted through https://lahacker.net/code/canopy/files/canopy/__web__/__init__.py#canopy/__web__/__init__.py-248
 * everything in angelo's site is editable and versionable
 * that meant he needed an edit post type
 * which then makes a lot of sense for wiki posts, and posseing those edits elsewhere


 * history of edits is important for a wiki
 * recent changes is an an easy way of getting a 'stream' from a wiki
 * chris uses fraidycat to follow streams from TiddlyWikis


 * h0p3
 * interested in the idea of applying machine learning to his wiki corpus as a means of having the ML speak like himself
 * tom critchlow has a twitter bot that does something similar to tweak like him


 * access control - public vs private?


 * link between blogs and wikis - when do you post in the blog vs the wiki?


 * Wikis for digital bookmarking
 * Wikity as an example
 * "The shortest explanation of Wikity I can provide is this: Wikity is social bookmarks, wikified."---via Wikity, One Year Later by Mike Caulfield


 * How to make wikis out of chat conversations?
 * I would like to opt out of Angelo linking people across IndieWeb wiki and chat-logs on their own site as I've never consented to be part of it - LewisCowles


 * remembering paths through wikis
 * martijn remembers where to find something on the indieweb wiki by remember a path to get to it


 * wikis are great for serendipity of finding old things in your wiki - things that you didn't even remember were there


 * h0p3
 * automated versions of myself for dialect with myself
 * it's hard to build maps for ourselves
 * relationship between tags and folder hierarchies


 * What is a wiki?
 * https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/1466-walkabout-landscapes-of-memory Aboriginal walkabouts as a memory tool (landscaping cue-based memory)
 * http://ecite.utas.edu.au/65535

Not covered
The following were thrown into the etherpad to potentially be covered, but no direct notes were taken on them specifically, unless covered above. These could be used for continuing the conversation in future sessions.


 * UIs
 * Two way or bi-directional linking
 * Roam Research
 * TiddlyBlink + TiddlyMap
 * TiddlyRoam
 * Org Roam


 * IndieWeb functionality
 * IndieAuth
 * Webmentions
 * h-card


 * Wikis for education
 * OER
 * Drag and drop pieces with attribution


 * Creative Commons Attribution


 * Networked Wikis


 * Wiki Subscriptions
 * Fraidyc.at
 * RSS/Atom/h-feed


 * Garden vs. Stream
 * Are there other useful metaphors we're missing?


 * Uses of wikis
 * commonplace books
 * note taking
 * knowledge aggregation
 * as publishing platform
 * example of French company using them for portable books with highlights and annotations
 * Thought spaces


 * Bookmarklets
 * TiddlyWiki example
 * Roam Research example
 * MediaWiki example(s)

Questions

 * What would a website look like it if were simultaneously a Wiki and a Blog instead of one or the other?
 * Does anyone else see or use wiki-patterns in non-wiki systems?
 * I use KanBan software Trello & WeKan. They enable me to swiftly create content, but also form more detailed information via details views with checklists, comments, participants etc
 * What are the most valuable features for what you do?
 * How to maintain a narrative voice
 * Smaller snippets
 * Smart-Copy / embed of canonical text from Bruno W

Articles

 * 2020-05-16 A web of wikis
 * 2020-05-13 Will Stedden The Swale: Weaving between Garden and Stream
 * 2020-05-02 Bliki tooling
 * 2020-04-15 Maggie Appleton Twitter Thread https://twitter.com/Mappletons/status/1250796236527058944
 * 2018-10-10 Tom Critchlow Of Digital Streams, Campfires and Gardens: Building personal learning environments across the different time horizons of information consumption
 * 2017-07-01 Amy Hoy How the Blog Broke the Web -- article mentioned by Anne-Laure Le Cunff during the session
 * 2015-10-17 Mike Caulfield The Garden and the Stream: A Techno pastoral
 * 1945-07 Vannevar Bush As We May Think in The Atlantic