rename to IndieWeb

 Renamed to IndieWeb  was a proposal from the 2016 Leaders Summit, to change our primary identity from "IndieWebCamp" to "IndieWeb". This will help differentiate the IndieWeb community from individual IndieWeb events (i.e. Homebrew Website Club or IndieWebCamp)

Summary
On July 4th, 2016:
 * The wiki moved from indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org
 * The primary IRC channel moved from #indiewebcamp to #indieweb. All members of the channel were invited to #indieweb and kicked from #indiewebcamp
 * We created a new #indieweb-dev channel for development-focused chat
 * The chat logs moved to https://chat.indieweb.org/today and https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/today
 * The slack invite page is now at https://chat.indieweb.org/slack
 * IndieNews moved from http://news.indiewebcamp.com to https://news.indieweb.org
 * Etherpad moved from http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com to https://etherpad.indieweb.org
 * More changes related to the rename but not tied to any particular launch date are being discussed at indieweb.org

Proposal
What we discussed explicitly at the IndieWeb Leaders Summit:
 * Redirect all URLs on indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org
 * Move the primary IRC channel to #indieweb (with topic-specific subchannels in #indieweb-dev and #indieweb-chat, bridged with Slack)

Concerns

 * We do not own indieweb.com (inactive)
 * We do not own twitter.com/indieweb (private/inactive)
 * Another new logo??

Procedure

 * Participants were encouraged to +1/0/-1 this specific proposal.
 * In particular, PLEASE express any concerns ASAP so they can be discussed and addressed
 * Changes were adopted on July 4, 2016 (US's Independence Day)

Votes

 * add your vote, optional comment, and your signature with ~
 * +1  2016-06-08 17:40 -0700
 * +1 17:42, 8 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 Aaron Parecki 18:13, 8 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 Kyle Mahan 18:34, 8 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 (participated remotely) 10:04, 9 June 2016 (CEST)
 * +1 10:10, 9 June 2016 (CEST)
 * +1 undefined I'm sure there's a reason we went with IndieWebCamp originally, perhaps because we set the site up for 2011 (which started at the home page), and then added pages for session notes, then added topical pages. But clearly "IndieWeb" has grown beyond just the camps, both with other events, and more importantly, as a 24x7 online community and resource.
 * +1 | Boffosocko.com 23:32, 9 June 2016 (PDT) In particular, I like the parallelism with other communities WordPress:WordCamp::Drupal:DrupalCamp, etc. It also portends to help Generations >1 for onboarding.
 * +1 10:23, 11 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 Werd.io 13:55, 13 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 Kevin Marks 13:58, 13 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 14:13, 13 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1 Lukasrosenstock.net 06:27, 14 June 2016 (PDT)
 * +1
 * +1 IIRC, the *camp* part was added because the format of the event was modeled after BarCamp, and we didn't really know how it would evolve... 16:47, 24 June 2016

Details
On July 4th:

As proposed (see top, and discussions at IndieWeb Leaders Summit 2016) and then subsequently +1'd:
 * DONE: Redirect all URLs on indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org
 * DONE: Move the primary IRC channel to #indieweb
 * with topic-specific subchannels in #indieweb-dev and #indieweb-chat
 * bridged with Slack
 * Set up new IRC logs and web interface (URLs TBD, see below, however note that no "chat subdomain" was discussed so that should not be assumed)
 * DONE: New chat logs are at https://chat.indieweb.org but do not yet have streaming and cannot join the chat from the web interface

Additional Consensus Details
The following additional details appear to have consensus (at least one option with no -1/-0)

'''ACTION: Please check the "Consensus:" line on each child subsection to see if you can live with that. If you have any objections (for any reason with new information please), PLEASE raise it in our main discussion channel ASAP!'''

where to put newsletter
Consensus:
 * DONE: just keep this-week subdirectory

newsletter subdomain

 * Redirect https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week to newsletter.indieweb.org

Opinions:
 * -1 undefined - Similar criticisms as other non-essential subdomains above. Leave this alone as it can work just fine as-is with existing /this-week path handling. So in short, just switch the domain and don't do any extra work.
 * -1 - This isn't enough of an "application" to warrant its own subdomain
 * 0
 * -0
 * -1 it would need to have more features to warrant it's own subdomain

just keep this-week subdirectory

 * Do nothing. The existing step to redirect indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org will result in indieweb.org/this-week and that's just fine and less work.

Opinions:
 * +1 undefined
 * +1
 * +1 if not consolidated per below
 * +1 if consolidated
 * 0
 * +1 for less work
 * +1 nice and simple, makes sense to separate from news.indieweb.org

consolidate with news.indiewebcamp.com
...or wherever that existing site (IndieNews) resolves to after discussion above.

Since this-week serves, in part, as a weekly archive of submissions to IndieNews, archiving them there makes sense to me. With the current URLs, it might look like:
 * https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/ => https://news.indiewebcamp.com/archives/
 * https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2016-06-17.html => https://news.indiewebcamp.com/archives/2016-06-17.html

Pros:
 * One entry point for indieweb news and archived emails.

Cons:
 * May not be possible/easy depending on how the IndieNews and this-week are implemented currently.
 * this-week is only in English currently and IndieNews supports multiple languages.

Opinions:
 * +0 I proposed this but don't have strong feelings. Aaron's suggestion for gazette.p3k.io above would resolve this issue.
 * -1 - I view this-week as more than just archives of IndieNews submissions (it currently includes previous and upcoming events, new people, new wiki pages and wiki edits), and I also have plans to add more sources of information to it over time. I'm also happy to take suggestions on the wiki or even suggestions via implementation. If you can provide me a URL with mf2 then I can probably get it into the newsletter!
 * +1 I see IndieNews as a place to submit articles, and This Week in the IndieWeb as the newsletter, which should incorporate new articles in IndieNews for that week. I think they should be organized together. Not necessarily integrated to the degree they are the same thing.
 * -1 undefined They mean different things. "this week" is way more today, and may become even more in the future (we've kept adding to it)
 * -1 News and newsletter are different things. Newsletter can certainly continue to pull from news though.
 * -1 keep 'em separated, more flexible/maintainable.

where to put etherpad
Consensus:
 * DONE: move to etherpad.indieweb.org

leave at etherpad.indiewebcamp.com
Opinions:
 * -0 - Does not require any additional work, and is mostly used during IndieWebCamp events anyway. However I think it would be nice to move it to the indieweb.org domain to match everything else.
 * +0 undefined - could live with for ease of work / postponing / decoupling from 2016-07-04.

move to etherpad.indieweb.org
Opinions
 * +1 - Matches the rest of the domain move, not a lot of work to move it here anyway.
 * +1 undefined seems sensible, more consistent, and different cookie/access than indieweb.org, so (existing) subdomain (still) makes sense here.
 * +1

where to put slack invite page
(currently at slack.indiewebcamp.com)

This is a single PHP page that people can put their email address into to receive an invite to join the Slack room.

Consensus (no objections) either OR:
 * just re-use existing Slack page
 * DONE: move to a page on new chat logs https://chat.indieweb.org/slack

just re-use existing Slack page
The existing Slack page works right now. Let's keep using it.

Opinions:
 * +1 undefined

slack subdomain

 * Redirect slack.indiewebcamp.com to slack.indieweb.org

Opinions:
 * -1
 * -1 yeah this confuses the heck out of me -- can never remember whether to go to indiewebcamp.slack.com or slack.indiewebcamp.com
 * -0 undefined dislike in general because of subdomain use, yet has been easy to tell new people to go there.
 * -1 - this behavior should be a part of the chat page (with subdomain or subdirectory, whichever is chosen)
 * -1
 * -1 totally agree with  having indiewebcamp.slack.com and slack.indieweb.com is really messy

move to a page on new chat logs

 * Depending on the URL of the new chat logs:
 * chat.indieweb.org/slack
 * indieweb.org/chat/slack

Opinions:
 * +1 - Either way the chat URLs end up, I like this better especially since the chat logs will no longer have "IRC" in the URL
 * +1 to either
 * +1 to either (or just inline on /chat)
 * +0 undefined ok with either pending orthogonal subdomain decision
 * 0 either is good (I'd prefer that it's a part of the top level chat page (either chat.indieweb.org or indieweb.org/chat)
 * +1 and agreed it should be inline at the top-level page. Promote our web-chat version first, then Slack alternative below that.
 * +1 feel like all chat-related things should be grouped together, irc-app, slack invite, and logs under chat subdomain or /chat

Additional Required Details
Additional details, determined after the IndieWeb Summit, as being required (or passive but explicit non-decisions) that will impact the switch on the 4th (per (primary rename implementer) determination in Etherpad).

'''ACTION: Please check the the various options and add your opinion ASAP. New information / citations to back up your opinion are especially appreciated!'''

where to put IRC logs
Currently: Need:
 * https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
 * a place for #indieweb logs
 * a place for #indieweb-dev logs

Consensus (so far)
 * chat.indieweb.org subdomain (instead of indieweb.org/chat subdirectory) - see below for discussion
 * ... other details pending

chat subdomain

 * Set up new IRC logs and web interface on chat.indieweb.org

Opinions:
 * +1 undefined - updated opinion per arguments. we *do* have a use-case driven need for different cookie/login for chat (vs *requiring* indieweb default indieauth sign-in) both with existing Web-based UI, and the desire to keep that "easy to join" aspect moving forward. Thus from a cookie/sign-in perspective a different subdomain makes sense for chat interface. And then it makes more sense to keep the logs (uneditable/not login based anyway) together with the chat interface rather than separate.
 * Was: -1 A subdomain before "indieweb" dilutes the brand of "indieweb", no CORS/different-origin need for a subdomain for chat logs.
 * +1 - I think a chat application (which is essentially what this is) is different enough from the wiki that it's fine to have it be a subdomain. I also like the idea of telling people to "go to chat.indieweb.org to join the chat room from the web page, IRC or Slack".
 * +1 Since this is a web interface for chats, not just the chat logs, I am in favor. I would be against if it was only the chat logs.
 * +1 I like this as it allows for a chat oriented landing page that can link to other parts: logs, slack, faq
 * 0 undefined this would be the same either way - a landing page can work both ways.
 * +0 I think this would be fine but not particularly better than a /chat subdir
 * +1
 * +1 chat currently has a different, easier sign-in that demonstrably works better for new users. Putting indieauth in the way of thta would be a regression. It also enables gateway wiki reading and editing via Loqi. I do see that being signed into the wiki identifying me in the chat would also be nice, but they are different.
 * +1 agreed that we don't want to make indieauth sign-in a requirement to join the room, and similarly that if you *are* signed in to the wiki, it should be able to identify you from that
 * +1 undefined these are very good points by both of you.
 * +1 Since one of the reasons for subdomains is to make it easier to have services on different servers, "chat" seems a no brainer as it is a essentially an "app" and totally different from the wiki. I really don't understand undefined concern about "dilutes the brand" and I do branding design for a living. I wager making a uniform header bar across all the subdomains that has intuitive information architecture will enhance "the brand" more than any URL structure.
 * +1 I think a subdomain is fine for this, it does feel like a different app. Also /chat now exists in the wiki.
 * +0 no strong opinion on this, but it is easier now that /chat exists as a wiki page.

chat subdirectory
Updated: This section has been simplified and a separate polling section set up for URL paths. Please revise your opinions here and in the new section.


 * Set up new IRC logs and web interface at indieweb.org/chat/...
 * "chat" is better than the current "IRC" because "chat" is meaningful, less jargony, and general, rather than "IRC" which is a jargon acronym, "internet relay" adds no essential meaning, and "IRC" is plumbing specific, which makes less sense as we bridge to Slack and possibly other chat services / sources (Matrix, possibly indieweb messages in the future etc.). - undefined

Opinions:
 * +1 undefined only because less work for launch. Open to considering subdomain alternative if the goal(s) truly is/are to turn into something beyond just IndieWeb community specific, e.g. as brainstormed in chat.
 * -1 - once you add the channel name to the URL, I feel like the path of indieweb.org/chat/dev/2016-06-22 is too long. IMO chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-06-22 looks better because of the shorter path. Additionally, telling people to join the chat room by going to "indieweb.org/chat" is more cumbersome since it requires saying two different punctuation marks ("dot" and "slash") instead of just "dot".
 * +0 undefined hmm, the shorter path (fewer path segments) does look slightly better I have to agree. Not sure why. Will think about it.
 * 0 no strong opinion on this.


 * +0 for chat over irc and for creating a section or landing area for chat logs, webchat, and the Slack bridge together. (See separating above.)
 * +0 - ambivalent. chat subdomain gives us more flexibility in the future to separate the chat logs/application from the wiki, so I'll defer to the implementers on whichever they'd prefer.
 * -1 on subdirectory
 * -1 makes hosting independently of wiki and other parts of the site harder

URL paths of chat logs
Whether the base URL for chat becomes chat.indieweb.org or indieweb.org/chat/, this section is for voting on the paths that come after the base URL.

This section is separated out from "where to put the IRC logs". Please clarify your existing opinions there and here.

Details:
 * Main channel (currently #indiewebcamp, will be #indieweb)
 * Sub channel: (new channel #indieweb-dev)
 * Not archiving thus irrelevant to options: #indiechat and any renaming thereof

short scheme (imply "indieweb")

 * Main channel logs: {base}/ and {base}/2016-07-04
 * Sub channel logs: {base}/dev and {base}/dev/2016-07-04

Opinions:
 * +1
 * +1 prefer not duplicating "indieweb" in the URL.
 * +1 additionally, this respects the Slack channel names (they don't have the indieweb- prefix)
 * +1
 * +1 no need to include IRC-specific namespace
 * +1 makes sense to match the Slack UX and go for less wordy

date or channel primary
Issue: E.g.:
 * date-primary vs channel-primary not explicitly discussed!
 * /2016-07-04/dev vs. /dev/2016-07-04

Opinions:
 * undefined date-primary (/2016-07-04 and /2016-07-04/dev) more consistent with good URL design, HOWEVER, data (per prodding) shows (krijnh, csswg) existing logs are channel-primary with date at end (makes easier to change date to go next/prev day) e.g.:
 * 2016-07-04 - shows archive for main channel for 2016-07-04
 * dev/2016-07-04 - shows archive for dev channel for 2016-07-04
 * see below for "/log/" prefix proposal too
 * channel-primary better represents the hierarchy of information in the URL. Information in chat channels are not aggregated across channels, so the channel being the primary separator follows that pattern. If you remove the path segment from the end of the URL {base}/dev/2016-07-04 then you are left with {base}/dev which has an obvious use as an index of dates for that channel. The other way around, there is no clear behavior (do we show a list of all channels that have activity on a specific date?)

explicit log or archive in path
Issue: Explicit "log" or "archive(s)" in path? e.g. which of these for the root of logs? E.g. with dev channel: E.g. with main dated: E.g. with dev dated:
 * chat.indieweb.org/
 * chat.indieweb.org/log/
 * chat.indieweb.org/archive/
 * chat.indieweb.org/archives/
 * chat.indieweb.org/dev
 * chat.indieweb.org/log/dev
 * chat.indieweb.org/archive/dev
 * chat.indieweb.org/archives/dev
 * chat.indieweb.org/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/log/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/archive/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/archives/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/log/dev/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/archive/dev/2016-07-04
 * chat.indieweb.org/archives/dev/2016-07-04

Opinions?
 * undefined
 * +1 /log/ or /archive/ (slight preference for shorter /log, but /archive may be more Generations friendly?)
 * -1 / (root should be the "app", sign-in, overview, channels, networks etc.
 * -0 /archives (I prefer singular)

main channel at root or not
Issue: E.g.:
 * Should main channel exclude its channel name in the URL:s?
 * / and /dev vs /main and /dev?

Opinions:
 * For consistencies sake I would prefer all channels to always include some kind of channel name in their URL:s. This would also enable us to have an overarching page that could link to all the different archives and eg. also the wiki, the Slack signup etc. So I would prefer something like /main to go with /dev
 * undefined for simplicity of common case sake, I prefer that our primary / general / main channel not have an explicit name URL segment. Keeps common chat URL permalinks shorter. Especially since the URL already had "chat" and "indieweb" in the string!
 * e.g. / and /dev, or /log and /log/dev
 * chat.indieweb.org/log and chat.indieweb.org/log/dev or chat.indieweb.org/dev/log

long scheme

 * Main channel logs: {base}/indieweb and {base}/indieweb/2016-07-04
 * Sub channel logs: {base}/indieweb-dev and {base}/indieweb-dev/2016-07-04

Opinions:
 * -1 seems wordy and redundant: http://indieweb.org/chat/indieweb-dev
 * -1 same
 * -1 same
 * -1
 * -1

Issues:
 * what about other channels / networks we log that are not indieweb?
 * e.g. existing socialwg.indiewebcamp.org/irc/YYYY-MM-DD
 * what about other channels / networks we log but don't show yet?
 * e.g. #microformats?

Opinions:

where to put bookmark aggregator
(currently at news.indiewebcamp.com)

news subdomain

 * Redirect news.indiewebcamp.com to news.indieweb.org

Opinions:
 * +0 undefined - Similar criticisms as other non-essential subdomains above. "0" because we already (mistakenly? accidentally?) chose to use news.indiewebcamp.com so this is less big of a change (it's a wash "0" rather than a backwards step "-1"). "-" on this because this is also an opportunity to fix that hasty/accidental use of a subdomain which we shouldn't have in the first place.
 * Note the contrast with Hacker News which does use "news.ycombinator.com", which only makes sense because IT IS a whole different company than "ycombinator", and thus makes sense to have its own CORS/different-origin, as well as explicitly preferring the "news" brand over the "ycombinator" brand. None of that is the case of "IndieWeb News", and thus none of that applies (in terms of using a subdomain).
 * +0 - This is the easiest option and changes the least and is the least unexpected with the move of the main indiewebcamp.com URL. "0" for the reasons tantek said above.
 * undefined Changed -0 to +0 per aaronpk's reasons "is the easiest option and changes the least and is the least unexpected"
 * +1 - It's a totally separate application, not moderated and maintained like indieweb.org proper, and I think the subdomain sets that expectation correctly. Also I like the subtle reference/jab at HN.
 * -1 moving to gazette.p3k.io seems to be a cleaner option (and clears the way to not require *any* subdomains) (yes, it pains me to write that)
 * +1 for easiest immediate option; could always be moved to gazette.p3k.io later.
 * +1 same reasons as
 * +1 same as  and  :P

news subdirectory

 * Redirect news.indiewebcamp.com to indieweb.org/news
 * For all the same reasons as indieweb.org/chat. - undefined

Opinions:
 * 0 undefined I think this is better, yet it will take work, so 0.
 * -1 Currently http://indiewebcamp.com/news is a wiki page with some content and links. IndieNews (the name of the software at news.indiewebcamp.com) does not allow wiki-like contributions, so should not appear to be under the wiki namespace. However, if the software is modified to both allow wiki-like contributions (in addition to submission via webmention) then I would love to consolidate Posts_about_the_IndieWeb and videos_about_the_indieweb and presentations into it and host it at /news.
 * -1
 * -1 for wiki name collision Aaron mentioned, and the consolidation of wiki + webmention sounds non-trivial
 * -1 url namespace collision

leave it at news.indiewebcamp.com

 * Do nothing because this is the easiest option

Opinions:
 * -1 - Seems weird to have this be the only thing left at indiewebcamp.com
 * -1 - Weird
 * -1 yea, I feel strongly it should be all or nothing
 * -1 think I was misreading this before; I thought it was a given everything indiewebcamp.com was redirecting to indieweb.org, whether to a subdomain or subdirectory.
 * -1 undefined feels odd leaving this behind
 * -1

move to gazette.p3k.io

 * Rename the project from "IndieNews" to "Gazette" and redirect to gazette.p3k.io
 * Would require adding a URL path like "indieweb" in order to allow it to be used for other things as well, such as gazette.p3k.io/indieweb/en (+ gazette.p3k.io/indieweb/de etc) and gazette.p3k.io/microformats

Opinions:
 * +0 - This is my favorite option despite it being the most work (I'd need to modify the project to allow the extra URL path). I feel a little bad that I launched this at news.indiewebcamp.com back in 2013 since it was really more of a personal experiment at the time and I struggled to get it to catch on, until relatively recently when I started including new articles in the this-week newsletter. I've also had "Gazette" on the list of p3k names to be used as a aggregator anyway. This also makes our three wiki pages that list indieweb-related posts (Posts_about_the_IndieWeb, videos_about_the_indieweb, presentations) more different from this aggregator which is good because it makes them appear to overlap less.
 * +0
 * +1 undefined I think this is now my favorite option.
 * -1 I think this is a swell community resource that was maybe just too early.
 * -0 I'd prefer to keep it under the community banner -- *.p3k.io are generally tools/infra, unfortunately I don't think people would be nearly as likely to syndicate there. 0 because it's ultimately up to Aaron
 * +1

Other Stuff Discussed
There was also some discussion at the IndieWeb Leaders Summit of an "events.indieweb.org" but more as an eventual possible explicit web application (not built yet), not as something we just flip a switch and (should) do.

There was also discussion of more possible chat channels yet we decided to postpone more channels until we first created the new channels above, got experience with them, and then only if there was a demonstrated need would we consider more channels.

Brainstorming
A combination of later (async) thoughts/proposals that were discussed after the Summit.

You are encouraged to add your opinion (as in opinion polling) to proposals below.

If you don't see a proposal you like, OR if you think of a better proposal, please add more alternative proposals to the relevant subsections!

The goal here is discussion, not decision.

By providing your opinions (both direction, and more importantly, your reasoning), we can hopefully quickly see if there is broad consensus, or if not, the reasons for disagreement, and seek to understand, discuss, and hopefully resolve differences. "Voting" is NOT the goal in this Brainstorming section.

new name for off topic channel

 * Does this actually matter for 2016-07-04 since it is not being logged (and therefore does not need a log/archive URL)? I suggest we punt on this and see where people end up. - undefined

#indieweb-chat
Originally from the set of channels discussed at the Leaders Summit, was indieweb-chat.

Opinions:
 * -1 "chat" is an ambiguous name for a Slack room. Would also duplicate "chat" in logs URL.
 * -1 - confusing what "chat" means
 * -1 - since we're using "chat" in the base URL, having this room named "chat" would be confusing
 * -1
 * 0 undefined - can live with it, or without it.
 * -1

#indieweb-offtopic
Subsequent proposal for reasons offered in -1 opinions above. Opinions:
 * +1 Avoids duplicate "chat" in URL, and agree with
 * +1 - "offtopic" is a common name for this kind of channel
 * +1 - Agree chat is ambigious
 * +1 - more clearly says what it's for, should hopefully help people self-segment conversations better
 * +1 - also fewer people stumbling on the channel wanting to talk indie music :)
 * -0 undefined - "offtopic" feels like slightly tech-communication-centric jargon to me. It's not horrible, but it's not good either.
 * +1

#indieweb-random
Based on Slack's default "random" channel.

Despite the silo-pref, "indieweb-random" follows Slack’s naming conventions, which is likely to be *more* friendly to non-devs / and further Generations 2+ etc. since they are:
 * 1) more likely to have used Slack than IRC
 * 2) more likely to "get" random instead of "offtopic" which does tend to be a tech-community-centric piece of jargon

Opinions:
 * +1 undefined (proposer) - Of the 8 Slack teams I'm on that I appear to be signed into:, 4 have random, 2 have no random, 1 renamed it to "notgames", 1 renamed to "indiechat". So 50% stick with the default. That's a clear enough sign for me. And zero have "offtopic" as a channel name. Just some data in the hopes of another alternative being considered from a design perspective (even if I myself am comfortable with "offtopic", hence the focus on Generations in the proposal).
 * -0 - While I understand the reasoning making it match Slack, the fact is we actually say "off topic" quite a lot in our IRC channel currently, especially when we are encouraging people to take off-topic conversations to #indiechat. Search our logs.
 * -0 our use of offtopic gives more weight to that option plus I really dislike slack ;)

More Brainstorming
See indieweb.org for more brainstorming on future potential changes after the July 4 switch.