#indiewebcamp 2013-01-15

2013-01-15 UTC
#
ianloic unrelated, this looks awesome: http://qlblang.org/
#
tantek ianloic - it was designed to be a type-dispatching system
#
tantek that is, each type prefix potentially has a different algorithm for how the rest of the URL is interpreted/decoded
#
tantek I did it that way so I could partition different kinds of posts into discrete problems that I could solve as I got to them, rather than assuming a universal decoding for all post types
#
tantek having learned that how you archive/backup a bunch of text can (could) vary greatly from more space intensive needs like images, audio, or video
#
tantek so it's useful in that it allows me to focus on one problem at a time, and postpone solving other problems
#
tantek a useful characteristic of any kind of deconstruction approach to larger problems
#
ianloic tantek, hmm interesting. So your shortener has / can have a lot of knowledge about the implementation of your specific blog / audio / video stores?
danbri joined the channel
#
tommorris we have explosive on osm-checkin attempt 2: http://cl.ly/image/0o3W2T061i3u
#
tantek tommorris - cool - looks like a linearized table ;)
#
tantek ianloic - yes, the shortener is the dispatcher
#
tantek as I figure out each dispatch algorithm, I document it openly
#
tantek until then, each shortcode only hints at what's there.
#
tantek (per the aforementioned list of shortcodes)
#
tantek so it has knowledge of the URL implementation - but not the guts behind whatever implements that
#
ianloic tantek, but you also consider the destinations (ie: long links) to be immutable permalinks?
#
tantek yes
#
ianloic interesting.
#
tommorris tantek: yeah, well each one may have some more detail, plus a big "checkin" button. it's just divs with paras inside, but might end up being a table, or an ordered list of definition lists.
#
tantek the initial destinations at least (what the shorturls expand to)
#
tantek they may of course 301 to longer links - which is how I implement slugs for example
#
tantek and thus can *change* the slugs of my posts without having any links break
#
tantek (unlike pretty much every other CMS out there - wordpress etc. - where if you change the slug of a post, you break all links to that post)
morrocco_mole joined the channel
#
@carlbert_ RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
aaronpk and morrocco_mole joined the channel
#
@LorryWoodman RT @aral: Worrying trend using Facebook, Google+, and other walled gardens as blogs. Especially geeks should know better. #indieweb
friedcell1, tantek, andreypopp, eschnou, eschenal, friedcell, catsup, danbri, donpdonp and mxuribe joined the channel
#
@BarnabyWalters Any #indieweb people going to http://www2013.org The Microposts Workshop looks like it might be quite interesting… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/824/
jancborchardt joined the channel
#
aaronpk !tell tantek catching up on the URL discussion earlier... I totally understand the arguments for more information in URLs, but I don't see how having the date+sequence in the URL for a venue is any less opaque than an incrementing integer, or a uuid
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
morrocco_mole joined the channel
#
ianloic aaronpk, I agree
#
tommorris fears it is probably one of those tantek-being-eccentric-but-will-be-proved-right things. ;-)
#
aaronpk likely
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
tommorris hey barnabywalters
#
barnabywalters good evening tommorris
#
barnabywalters is working on the ins/del timeline scrubber thing: http://codepen.io/barnabywalters/pen/nhmuw
#
tommorris oh awesome
#
tommorris oh, never seen codepen before. that's awesome.
#
barnabywalters yeah, it’s nice. Like jsfiddle but shinier
#
barnabywalters and the pro features are _amazing_
#
tommorris also, on the WWW2013 front? I *wish*.
#
barnabywalters heh, yeah, me too :) But that goes for most conferences :/
#
tommorris probably will just be wikimania for me this year.
#
tommorris (if I can get a scholarship)
#
barnabywalters hong kong? cool
#
tommorris hopefully London next year. a bit easier to get to.
#
barnabywalters you’re in London, right? so a lot easier to get to!
#
tommorris I'm about half way between London and Brighton, so yes.
#
barnabywalters now I’ve figured out I can get cheap bus travel to London if I get up really early, I should be able to go to a whole load more stuff
#
barnabywalters just reading through the logs I missed from last night — to clarify, "opaque" in this context refers to something without specific meaning, right?
#
tommorris yeah
#
aaronpk opaque usually means it may only have meaning for the person who created it
#
barnabywalters so, opaque = meaningless or non-obvious meaning. Not "hackable", as such
#
aaronpk no, hackable or guessable are not part of it I believe
#
barnabywalters looks up official definition
#
barnabywalters closest thing to how we’re using it here I can find is no.4 from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opaque
#
barnabywalters hard to understand
#
barnabywalters not clear or http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lucid
#
barnabywalters obscure:
#
aaronpk there's a w3c definition IIRC
#
aaronpk hm, it's not defined explicitly, but it's used a lot in the oauth spec
#
aaronpk http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-v2-31#section-1.4 search for opaque
tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 17 minutes ago: catching up on the URL discussion earlier... I totally understand the arguments for more information in URLs, but I don't see how having the date+sequence in the URL for a venue is any less opaque than an incrementing integer, or a uuid
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: only w3c stuff I can find about opaque is it being used a lot, and then css/svg properties :)
#
aaronpk heh yea
#
tantek aaronpk - dates can be used to correlate information, universally, long after the fact. incrementing integers or other apparently random uuids cannot.
#
barnabywalters so it seems that there is in fact no easily accessible definition of "opaque" as used in this context
#
tantek barnabywalters - opaque can be used to mean in this context as, provides no other information.
#
tantek which is a reasonable equivalent to the common definition, you can't see anything through it.
#
barnabywalters tantek: provides no *other* information?
#
tantek right, other than being essentially an apparently-random string identifier
#
barnabywalters okay
#
tantek incrementing integers is not totally opaque, since it does still give you a tiny bit of information (relative sequence)
#
tantek but the garbage UUIDs you see are typically opaque
#
aaronpk if I use strings like XXXX.0000.YYYY in my URLs to identify things, you have no idea what that means at first, so it's opaque. If I then told you that I'm encoding information in the characters and told you the encoding scheme, it's no longer opaque
#
aaronpk so strings are opaque unless they have a known structure and can be decoded
#
tantek if they're not opaque to the creator, they're not opaque. that's just delayed discoverability.
#
aaronpk tantek's short urls are opaque unless he publishes the encoding scheme (type+date+sequence)
#
barnabywalters so the opacity of any given string depends on the context and available information
#
tantek aaronpk - and even that's not necessarily true, as people good a (de)crypto can reverse engineer things from patterns
#
tantek s/a /at /
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk - and even that's not necessarily true, as people good at (de)crypto can reverse engineer things from patterns
#
aaronpk true
#
tantek publishing the algorithm just makes it trivial
#
barnabywalters okay, that’s great. would it be worth publishing this definition somewhere for other newcomers like me?
#
tantek which definition?
#
barnabywalters the meaning of "opaque" in this context
#
tantek barnabywalters, sure, start a stub at /opaque
#
tantek and feel free to cite the definition given above
#
tantek aaronpk, in fact, I'd say that reverse-engineerability is a feature of a good id hash - the easier that people can decode what's going on from the fewest number of instances of the hash, the better.
#
waterpigs.co.uk created /opaque (+892) "Started rough definition with citation" (view diff)
#
aaronpk tantek: I like that
#
@BarnabyWalters After seeing the term “opaque” used frequently but no canonical definition provided, I asked the #indieweb IRC cha… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/826/
#
barnabywalters wrt self-hosted indieweb venue URIs: I’m wondering if there’s some straightforward way of scavenging/syncing venue information between multiple sites
#
tantek.com edited /opaque (+57) "see also, dfn" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters problem with that is it’d probably still require consistent (i.e. centralised) venue IDs
#
barnabywalters perhaps there’s a microformats+cross-browser extension+web action delegate solution…
#
barnabywalters where, say, tommorris checks in to a venue I know I might want to check in to in the future (or indeed right now)
#
tantek it's easy, you just copy the hCard over from his venue URL to your venue URL
#
barnabywalters in my browser I visit the checkin, and the extension provides UI to "checkin to this location on your own site"…
#
tantek that would make sense
#
barnabywalters …I define a delegate URI and build the backend for it, and it’s one
#
barnabywalters s/one/done
#
Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: …I define a delegate URI and build the backend for it, and it’s done
#
barnabywalters i suspect YAGNI syncing/updating venue information, but it could be done by linking to "this venue on my friend’s sites", and periodically polling (or using pingback, or something) for changes
#
tantek.com created /algorithmic (+285) "stub" (view diff)
#
tommorris barnabywalters: publishing your own URIs for venues is quite useful. your friends could feasibly look at your list and use that as part of their checkin process.
#
tommorris so, for instance, if I checked in at place X, and then two minutes later, you went to your site to checkin and your phone told your site that you are very close to me, and we've added each other as contacts, there's some likelihood we are at the same place.
#
tommorris so the UI could (like 4sq) show that you have friends there
#
barnabywalters we don’t have a self hosted venues wiki page yet, do we?
#
tommorris that's obviously a way off, but declaring same-as relationships between venues is useful.
#
tommorris barnabywalters: not yet. but I'm making progress on checkin
#
barnabywalters starts http://indiewebcamp.com/self_hosted_venues
#
tommorris barnabywalters: http://cl.ly/image/0o3W2T061i3u - now using cloudmade's API to get stuff from OSM.
#
aaronpk hyphens plz?
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: sure :) I actually prefer hyphens, mediawiki standard seems to be underscores for spaces…
#
aaronpk it really does
#
aaronpk it sucks
#
aaronpk I think we're using hyphens on a few pages tho
#
tommorris nah, more "self-hosted_venues" maybe?
#
Loqi hehe
#
aaronpk lol
#
barnabywalters ???
#
barnabywalters so Loqi, hyphens or underscores?
#
Loqi who, me?
#
barnabywalters oh screw it, I’ll go with hyphens.
#
aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:AllPages
#
aaronpk most of the new lowercase pages have hyphens
#
waterpigs.co.uk created /self-hosted-venues (+150) "started stub" (view diff)
#
tantek sigh - ahem, barnabywalters, "indieweb" kind of already means self-hosted ;)
#
tantek and did you look for a /venues page?
#
tantek ;)
#
barnabywalters moves what he’s writing to /venues ;)
#
tantek.com edited /algorithmic (+1715) "features, examples, type date increment, misconceptions, see also" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /Falcon (+40) "stub" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /newbase60 (+43) "stub" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1) "ws" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /newbase60 (+1) "ws" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /Whistle (+41) "stub" (view diff)
#
waterpigs.co.uk created /venues (+1270) "Created, added cross-site venue checkin flow" (view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com created /venue (+20) "redirect" (view diff)
#
waterpigs.co.uk edited /self-hosted-venues (-130) "added redirect" (view diff)
#
tantek hmm - I thought we had /venues already
#
barnabywalters tantek: there is a big section (entitled indieweb venues) on the checkin page
#
tantek ah no - we had a gestational article on checkin: http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#indieweb_venues
#
tantek meant to start the venues article with that
#
tantek tries to figure out a way to merge the content
#
barnabywalters tommorris: might be worth updating http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#work_in_progress with the fact that it was tricky to optimise but you’ve found another possible solution
#
barnabywalters right now I am leaning toward implementing checkins as notes with location and venue information machine tags
#
aaronpk tantek and I had a good discussion about this last week
#
aaronpk I believe the conclusion was that a "checkin" is in fact different from a note with a venue
#
tantek.com edited /opaque (+1075) "examples, uses, opinions, criticisms" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: you didn’t add a link to the relevant logs to the checkin page did you?
#
barnabywalters we should start doing that more often, the logs are getting *big*
#
aaronpk it was an in-person conversation :)
#
barnabywalters oh okay
#
Loqi fo sho
#
barnabywalters at the indieweb meet? how did that go?
#
aaronpk was fun, but we decided we needed to announce it more in advance to get more people to show up :)
#
barnabywalters cool :) yeah, I thought it was quite short notice!
#
barnabywalters I’d be interested to hear the reasoning behind checkin != note + venue, if you’d care to write it up/discuss it further here
#
tantek.com edited /location (+11) "see also venue" (view diff)
#
aaronpk I would, in fact, but have not yet been able to!
#
barnabywalters no problem :)
#
tantek I find "self-hosted" to be wordier / longer to type than "indieweb"
#
tantek does anyone here feel a semantic distinction?
#
tantek barnabywalters - in particular, curious about your thoughts - what leads you to think "self-hosted"
#
tantek ?
#
aaronpk short version: a checkin is stating that you are at that venue. it may contain text or photos as well. a note with a venue is where the venue adds context but your intent was not to say "I'm here"
#
barnabywalters tantek: not much, but self-hosted doesn’t specifically mean "under your own domain", wheres I interpret indieweb to mean that
#
barnabywalters s/wheres/whereas
#
Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: tantek: not much, but self-hosted doesn’t specifically mean "under your own domain", whereas I interpret indieweb to mean that
#
tantek so indieweb is self-hosted on your own domain?
#
barnabywalters yes, I’d say so
#
tantek you did say: practise of self-hosting checkin venues on your own site with your own URLs.
#
barnabywalters yeah, I hadn’t thought it through properly
#
tantek so it sounds like you meant indieweb venues from those definitions that you gave ;)
#
barnabywalters indeed I did :) Thanks for prompting a rethink
#
tantek.com edited /venues (+2619) "definition, merge indieweb venues subsection from checkins page into this page" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /checkin () "(-1349) /* indieweb venues */ move most content to the new venues page." (view diff)
#
tantek barnabywalters - take a look at the merging of content on the venues page and see if it makes sense to you - tried to preserve some sense of logical flow
#
tantek (and thanks for starting the page, that was very much necessary)
#
tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/venues
#
barnabywalters logical flow is good
#
barnabywalters the extensions section takes up a lot of space and is at least 40% tantek going +1 ;)
#
barnabywalters ooh, I didn’t know there was a µf opening hours effort
#
tantek hopefully that was an invitation for others to add their +/-1 opinions
#
tantek and other possible extensions
#
waterpigs.co.uk edited /venues (+0) "/* Extensions */ corrected typo" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters the amount of effort it would take to manually input opening hours+variations on them makes cross-site duplication or updating necessary IMO
#
tantek LOL - mistypocorrect
#
tantek (see the line above that you fixed barnaby ;) )
#
tantek.com edited /venues (-1) "fix typo miscorrection ;)" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters ha ha :) you can tell I’m not a foursquare user
#
barnabywalters got a working draft of the ins/del document timeline scrubber working: http://codepen.io/barnabywalters/pen/nhmuw
#
barnabywalters well, working approximately
morrocco_mole joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /geo (+76) "geo as shorthand" (view diff)
#
barnabywalters ah, working properly now. This evening I’ll make it more robust and wrap it up as an extension
#
tantek.com edited /projects (+4) "/* Whistle */ link to algorithmically" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /algorithmically (+25) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek barnabywalters - cool
friedcell, barnabywalters, morrocco_mole, erinjo, danbri, hober, tilgovi and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /PuPuPu (-2) "fix name" (view diff)