#indieweb

2013-11-02

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tantek
https://twitter.com/drawnalism/status/396207259942125568
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@drawnalism
Yes @adrianshort that is a problem of outsourcing your means of expression to a third-party IT platform which can change its techniques. ^MB ()
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Jeena
Hm I just found gnusocial which I don't quite understand yet but it seems to emerged from a merge of StatusNet, Free Social and GNU social
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Jeena
https://www.gnu.org/software/social/
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Jeena
As so very often with GNU projects it is really difficult to get information about it fast, you have to search and find it all over the internet
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pdurbin
Jeena: yeah, I think it's forked from statusnet. perhaps the most viable statusnet now that evanp has moved on to pump.io
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Jeena
but isn't pump.io some kind of a central server thingy?
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Jeena
I'm really confused about that
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pdurbin
Jeena: nope. it's federated
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Jeena
so how does pump.io relate to StatusNet?
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@matro
RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twtr.io/eMfLd8epL0)
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@janl
RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twtr.io/eMfZ0yKGQY)
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pdurbin_m
Jeena: they were both started by evanp
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Jeena
Yeah ok I see, just read a bunch of articles about all of this
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pdurbin_m
I'm somewhat interested in setting up a pump server
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Jeena
yeah me too, as a matter of fact, I'm trying it right now, but there seems not to be any step by step documentation
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Jeena
and the readme here http://pump.io/ is kind of misleading
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pdurbin_m
hmm. is there an IRC channel?
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Jeena
there is #pump.io but I'm not sure it is official
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@philipdurbin
@evanpro bummer. you're probably too busy to help someone set up a pump server: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-11-02/line/1383410600 (twtr.io/eMj0zaEaaU)
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pdurbin_m
heh
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barnabywalters
oh wow, check out the link in evanpro’s POSSEd tweet
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barnabywalters
for me it redirects to a page with a JSON message saying I’m not logged it
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barnabywalters
but there is a real HTML version here: https://e14n.com/evan/note/idZQC8yTRru1BsND4ThXGg
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Jeena
yeah me too
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barnabywalters
notified http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SrGtv/
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Jeena
hm he has 615 Followers, pump.io seems not that big?
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barnabywalters
does it interoperate with anything?
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barnabywalters
other than itself?
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@mindcrash
RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twtr.io/eMjbg7Dkop)
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Jeena
I don't think so, afak it is incompatible to StatusNet too
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Jeena
or gnusocial
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@snarfed_org
RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twtr.io/eMjfu42RvC)
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barnabywalters
oh wow I had forgotten about gnusocial
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Jeena
I kind of think that users are afraid of the word gnu in project names. GNU kind of sounds like it is only usable on the console and if you're a UNIX guru ;)
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pdurbin_m
isn't pump compatible with ActivityStreams?
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Jeena
I think they're the only one using it?
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pdurbin_m
barnabywalters: thanks for the html version
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barnabywalters
pdurbin_m: >> “compatible with activitystreams” — what does that even mean
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Jeena
there seems to be a spec http://activitystrea.ms/specs/
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barnabywalters
activitystreams defines a vocabulary for talking about things and stuff people do to things
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pdurbin_m
barnabywalters: for interoperability
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barnabywalters
it doesn’t cover how to actually get sites to work together to do stuff
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barnabywalters
(unless their scope has changed since I last looked at it)
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barnabywalters
also, published in ATOM or JSON — does any one implementation understand both?
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barnabywalters
statusnet might, not sure about pump.io
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Jeena
I think pump only works with JSON
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snarfed
ostatus is what you're looking for
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Jeena
and ATOM is, ..., XML ...
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snarfed
it and its component protocols. that's what statusnet used
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snarfed
(activitystreams is one of its components)
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barnabywalters
snarfed: what implements ostatus?
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snarfed
statusnet is/was the biggest
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Jeena
gnusocial
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snarfed
and lots of smaller stuff
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snarfed
iirc diaspora was based on it but wasn't entirely compatible
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barnabywalters
snarfed: really? what smaller stuff?
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barnabywalters
ostatus was overly complicated
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barnabywalters
especially salmon
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snarfed
couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but i'm sure ostatus.net and google can
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snarfed
sure. no argument here
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barnabywalters
*way* too much overhead for small projects to implement easily
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barnabywalters
http://isup.me/ostatus.net
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snarfed
huh, interesting, you're right
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snarfed
i *think* that used to be the main site, but i guess not any more
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snarfed
looks like .org works, more or less
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barnabywalters
last content posted there jan 2012
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barnabywalters
by evanpro, who has seemingly abandoned it in pump.io
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snarfed
yup. statusnet was really the only implementor with any weight
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snarfed
maybe modulo diaspora, partially
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barnabywalters
I think friendica might have implemented it too
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Jeena
monoculture all the things!
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barnabywalters
but look at all of these projects: large, monolithic codebases
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snarfed
oh sure, identica etc
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barnabywalters
no small components
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barnabywalters
no reusability
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snarfed
but i wouldn't say they had weight, really
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barnabywalters
monoculture all the way through
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barnabywalters
product-centered
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barnabywalters
ostatus is dead. we should learn what we can from how it succeeded and failed, then move on
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snarfed
sure. i'm not advocating ostatus, just mentioned it re your q that activitystreams "doesn’t cover how to actually get sites to work together to do stuff"
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Jeena
yeah even tent is less product-centered/monoculture then those, they at least have this idea of a protocol and many implementations of servers and clients
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barnabywalters
se also http://indiewebcamp.com/ostatus
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snarfed
eh, i wouldn't agree that ostatus is product-centered. statusnet was just the biggest (arguably only) truly commercial implementor.
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snarfed
but otherwise, all the criticism and death knells are valid
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barnabywalters
snarfed: ostatus wasn’t product centered, but all its major implementations were
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snarfed
sure. (i wouldn't personally even make that plural :P)
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barnabywalters
true!
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barnabywalters
well, I think the other implementations and the (albeit limited) interop they achieved is worth or recognition
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barnabywalters
s/worth or/worthy of
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: well, I think the other implementations and the (albeit limited) interop they achieved is worthy of recognition
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snarfed
sure. plenty of code and interop
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snarfed
only one with really meaningful adoption.
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snarfed
ostatus is dead, long live indieweb, and all that
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snarfed
i'm off to hack on rendering fb/twitter/g+ as mf2. appropriately horrifying for the halloween season!
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barnabywalters
snarfed: oh nice!
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barnabywalters
have you seen https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim?
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barnabywalters
aaronpk and I have made basic support for getting mf2 data from twitter and fb
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snarfed
yup. that's my medium term project: pure webmentions and indieweb replies for interacting with silos
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snarfed
oh wow, awesome!
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snarfed
looking now
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Jeena
the thing with indieweb is, I had a look at the whole wiki and I don't see anything like ostatus or tent, it is basically a big wiki with quite a lot of information about stuff but nothing one could take and implement to for example do stuff you do on twitter right now
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Jeena
or it is hidden so I wasn't able to find it
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barnabywalters
Jeena: barryfrost.com did — I don’t think he’s ever logged into IRC, but he built a top-notch indieweb site just from the stuff on the wiki
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barnabywalters
Jeena: what specifically were you looking for?
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snarfed
barnabywalters: thanks for the link, good to have for comparison.
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snarfed
mine is only a little additional work on top of https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial and friends
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Jeena
something like a community, kind of like with twitter or facebook or flickr where you could publish your stuff and get some kind of notifications about stuff other people published
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Jeena
and you could comment on that or like it, etc.
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barnabywalters
snarfed: oh is activitystreams-unofficial your project? awesome stuff!
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snarfed
from what i can tell, the next part - actually transforming webmentions to the proprietary API calls and vice versa - still looks like green field. let me know if you know otherwise
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snarfed
thanks! behind the times, but still, appreciated
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snarfed
and sorely needs a better name. marketing, whee.
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barnabywalters
snarfed: mediating between webmentions => silo notifications would be SO COOL
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Jeena
I was quite happy on Tent until they decided that federation/distribution is low priority and I wasn't able to use my domain and host my own server anymore
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snarfed
hell yes! actively working on it. feel free to evangelize to anyone interested in writing python for it.
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barnabywalters
Jeena: I had a very similar experience with diaspora
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Jeena
yeah that was the main reason why I never joined diaspora
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Jeena
I guess I'm really happy that there is RSS and SMTP ^^
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Jeena
but I would love to see more of this kind.
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pdurbin_m
Jeena: huh, I assumed you could run tent on your own domain
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Jeena
you could before the 0.3 version and I was running it on https://jeena.net
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Jeena
but then they rewrote their server and there is a but which prevents you using the same domain after you lost your data
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Jeena
I obviously have backup of the old database but the migrationscript never worked
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Jeena
so we were two self hosters and everybody else was on the one server provided by them
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Jeena
we've been waiting since mid august to be able to use our own domains again
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Jeena
that never happened and two weeks ago we were told that they have more important things to do then to make it possible for us two to use the domains we used until then
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barnabywalters
Jeena: seriously, they don’t let you run tent on your own domain?
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barnabywalters
when the first item on https://tent.io/ is “choose your host”?
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Jeena
you can do it but if something goes wrong you have to chose a new domain and try again
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Jeena
(or subdomain/url)
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barnabywalters
wow
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Jeena
they say they will fix it some day in the future but they have more important things to do now
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Jeena
and it was just the last drop for us two self hosters, the thing is they're too young and unexperienced to manage a community. Perhaps one day when everything is ready and all bugs are fixed, perhaps then it will work better.
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pdurbin_m
Jeena: man, I feel for you
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Jeena
the only thing which makes it worse is that I invested very much time in writing a Desktop client for Linux, OS X and Windows for it which I can't use anymore ^^
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pdurbin_m
Jeena: so you're looking for something similar to tent
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Jeena
I'm not sure, I like the principles on indieweb "Build tools for yourself, not for all of your friends"
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Jeena
so I think I will do that more
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barnabywalters
Jeena: what software is jeena.net running?
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Jeena
just a rails app I wrote
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barnabywalters
looks good
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pdurbin_m
Jeena: nice principle
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Jeena
but it goes down when I post some of my articles to HN ^^ so in the long run I'd like to remove it and just run static pages
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pdurbin
Jeena: you said "nothing one could take and implement" but there's http://indiewebcamp.com/ostatus#IndieWeb_Equivalents
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tantek.com
edited /2013/Hollywood (-1) "assume dates were/are correct of 11/3-4 and fix dotw headings accordingly" (view diff)
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tantek
catches up on logs
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tantek
busy morning - good day all
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tantek
welcome Jeena, and thanks very much for the frank feedback - it's helpful to know what we could do better with (on the wiki etc.)
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@ehafen
Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata (twtr.io/eMzMJrziD4)
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@ScienceNik
not really surprising, but important! “@ehafen: Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata” (twtr.io/eN0Mww5s8Y)
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@pkeane
RT @t: You know what's cheaper than a cell #? A domain name. We're going to make it more useful too. #indieweb #iamnotanumber (ttk.me t4Sq3) (twtr.io/eN1wHAQwtL)
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bret
grrr pump.io's irc is always crickets….. and its confusing as hell to set up
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bret
anyone here have pump.io experience?
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barnabywalters
first semi-functional version of indie pipes is working: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+528) "add last night's indieweb dinner" (view diff)
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@Wutbuergerin
RT @ehafen: Secrets of trial data revealed http://www.nature.com/news/secrets-of-trial-data-revealed-1.13913 via @stephen_friend #ownyourdata (twtr.io/eN6NQ9w9TV)
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bret
!tell barnabywalters awesome indie pipes!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pdurbin
bret: Jeena was just trying to set it up
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bret
I have it running now
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bret
Jeena you around?
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pdurbin
bret: what was the trick?
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bret
deleting stuff out of the sample config file untill it turned on
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bret
im still getting lots of errors
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pdurbin
sounds like progress
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bret
i'm trying to put together a simple PR for evan to incorporate UF-2
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bret
uF2*
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bret
How do I defer to an h-card located somewhere else?
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tantek.com
created /events/2013-11-01-indieweb-dinner (+1954) "copy from previous dinner, update, braindump from memory" (view diff)
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tantek
hey bret, what do you mean by "How do I defer to an h-card located somewhere else?" ?
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tantek
in what context?
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tantek.com
created /gnusocial (+24) "redirect to their capitalization" (view diff)
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bret
tantek: I thought you
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tantek
?
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bret
I thought there was a way to defer to a page scoped h-card on a different page from an h-entry
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bret
sorry on my phone
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bret
the dom isn't really h-card friendly in pump.io at the moment
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tantek
presumably by "defer" you mean refer or reference
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bret
yes
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tantek
an h-entry permalink page can use rel=author to link to a page representing the author (including h-card)
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bret
ahhh
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bret
ik
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bret
ok
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tantek
the authorship algorithm allows for discovery of that as a fallback if no h-entry p-author is found
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tantek
so clearly we should add this to an FAQ
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tantek
where did you try looking for an answer to this before you asked here?
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tantek
(i.e. on what wiki page(s))
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tantek.com
created /GNU_social (+693) "stub with description, a criticism" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+228) "/* other */ add GNU social summary and link to main" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+253) "/* experimental */ add pump.io with main link, note Evan Prodromou using it / selfdogfooding" (view diff)
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bret
tantek: I was referencing the h-entry and h-card pages in the microformats wiki
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tantek
bret - ok I'll add some hooks there to improve discoverability
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tantek
btw barnabywalters' implementation of the authorship discovery algorithm handles rel-author I believe
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tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#php_mf2_getAuthor
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tantek
so you can test your markup with that
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bret
ok
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bret
I'll do that when I get home
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dougmckown
Any thought on the use of Squarespace as host? Qualify as #indieweb if I have my own domain name?
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bret
dougmckown: not familiar with squarespace, but you can alwaysr compare against http://indiewebcamp.com/principles
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dougmckown
bret, sorry...walked away from laptop and battery died
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dougmckown
I know how to write HTML and CSS to create my own site, but I don't know how to add a blog to it...
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dougmckown
I crated a self-hosted WP blog, but then I lose control of HTML (and I don't know any PHP.
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dougmckown
back later...
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tantek
bret, dougmckown, FYI: http://indiewebcamp.com/squarespace - feel free to add (even questions) to that page
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tantek
bret, general formula for "not familiar with xyz" [service or project] - check for a page with that name on the wiki ;)
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tantek
and if it doesn't exist, create a minimal stub with a one sentence description to the best of your knowledge
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tantek
good evening indiewebcamp
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tantek.com
edited /pump.io (+60) "see also" (view diff)
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Jeena
evening? It is 7am over here in Sweden ;)
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Jeena
bret, which database did you use for your pump.io instance?
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bret
i'm just using mongo db
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Jeena
ok
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Jeena
I'll try to install it now too
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bret
im having issue getting it to work
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bret
super frustrating
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bret
the DB part worked fine though
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Jeena
I read over there that you're trying it locally on your computer
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Jeena
are you behind a router?
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Jeena
if so then you'd need to forward the port on it so it knows to which computer it has to go
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bret
Jeena yeah this is not trivia at all
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bret
trivial
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bret
aparently if you misconfigure you need to flush your pump DB
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Jeena
yeah it is like with Magento (the eshop thingy) they save the domain/url in the database somewhere
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Jeena
and as long as you don't have any data in it it is easy to just flush the db instead of trying to fix it there
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bret
gah
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bret
DB tax
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Jeena
that is a shame, pump.io doesn't work in a subdirecotry, only on root of your domain, so you need to use a subdomain and buy another ssl certificate for it
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aaronpk
good evening! looking forward to the festivities tomorrow!
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tantek
good evening!
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tantek
Jeena - interestingly enough, that same root dir only assumption is built into Falcon (what I'm building)
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tantek
bret DB tax indeed
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aaronpk
I think a lot of software assumes it's installed at the root dir of a domain
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Jeena
perhaps you could work around that in some way? People like me almost always already have some kind of blog or something else running on root
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aaronpk
I think that's the SOA and delegation approach
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Jeena
aaronpk, I understand that this makes the development a bit easier but it is not that complicated to add some string before all urls you produce
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aaronpk
webmention and indieauth have that built in, because you add a tag on your home page to point to the appropriate enndpoints to use, they don't make any assumptions about your webmention or indieauth server
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aaronpk
Jeena: i'm not sure what you're asking me to do... i've got nothing to do with the development of pump.io or anything similar
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tantek
right, none of the protocols we use assume root dir
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Jeena
that is actually the best approach, Tent does that now too, so every Tent server can have different endpoints
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tantek
but individual CMSs obv have their own assumptions
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Jeena
not you, I asked tantek with his Falcon ;)
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tantek
Jeena - as with many projects, directory independence is not a priority ;)
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tantek
certainly compared to other things
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Jeena
yeah ...
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tantek
and I'm not even sure it makes sense for the way Falcon is architected - which is that it asserts a policy about specifically designed URLs, short URLs etc.
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Jeena
It is just so much easier to implement if you do it right from the beginning
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tantek
the "already have some kind of blog" doesn't make sense - because it's supposed to be your blog too
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aaronpk
you'll find this community is very selective about the things we choose to agree on, many of us have strongly differing opinions on various things but are still able to make things work between all our domains/software
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Jeena
yeah, but people also have landing pages, etc.
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tantek
so if you already have some kind of blog, the expectation is that you export it and then import into Falcon (or whatever)
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tantek
landing pages are pretty dead Jeena
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tantek
even one of the longtime holdouts, adactio, gave up in the past year
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tantek
and switched his home page directly having recent posts
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Jeena
or me and my brother want to use the same domain (our last name) and use two directories for our first names, there are tons of reasons I can think of ;)
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Jeena
but yeah the most important is that I already have something else in my root, on http://jeenaparadies.net for example I have links and short summaries to different parts of the website
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Jeena
I use ownCloud, firefox sync, tent and my blog on the same domain
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Jeena
ah and TinyTinyRSS too
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Jeena
mostly because I want to run all of them via the one ssl cert I got
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aaronpk
ah yeah the SSL problem
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aaronpk
I finally broke down and got a wildcard cert for *.pin13.net so I can use it for all my random stuff. It was only like $80/year so it wasn't too bad.
(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)