#indieweb

2017-05-22

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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Comment on RSS Feeds: A Follow up on My IndieWeb Commitment 2017 by john johnston" by john johnston on 2017-05-18 http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/18/rss-feeds-a-follow-up-on-my-indieweb-commitment-2017/#comment-34678
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@Sebsel
Comparing @aaronpk's flight on his website to the one on Flight24, during breakfast with @calum_ryan #indieweb… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/866551236878839808 (twtr.io/1RzDLNj6Uq8)
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aaronpk
I have two copies of that flight on my site now lol
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aaronpk
one from my gps and one from the FlightAware API
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Zegnat
Which is the better map?
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aaronpk
My gps lost the lock half way through but it's better for the beginning
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sknebel____
Good morning IndieWeb! Bye Nürnberg!
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sknebel
myfreeweb: micro-panel looks cool, maybe it can save me quite a lot of work to build similar pieces myself
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sknebel
myfreeweb++
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Loqi
myfreeweb has 14 karma in this channel (19 overall)
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Zegnat
Morning sknebel! In your train?
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sknebel
Train station right now, but soon
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aaronpk
that was a rather unpleasant experience. i think next time i'll take the train back to dusseldorf instead of flying
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sknebel
What happened?
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aaronpk
long passport line just to get to the gate for the next flight
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Zegnat
Last time I flew from DUS was through the express lane, which helped a lot. Sometimes feels like that airport has had some scaling issues.
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cweiske
Zegnat, express lane is probably only for EU citizens
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Zegnat
cweiske, could be. I also don’t know how it is when switching from local to continental flights.
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cweiske
but aaron's problem was the flight between nürnberg and düsseldorf
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cweiske
photos indiewebcamp nürnberg 2017: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157684052275085/
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aaronpk
yeah the express lane is for EU passports. they only had 2 people working the Ausländer line and it was super super long, bleeding into the security checkpoint exit. it was a mess.
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aaronpk
yay julie!
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Loqi
😊
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Zegnat
Oh, cweiske, I took his comment “for the next flight” to mean the layover switching in DUS
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cweiske
btw, there is a download button on flickr but it's nearly impossible to see
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Zegnat
Photos came out really well, as always! Looked through them last night. Not good for my FOMO though
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cweiske
*now* the button is visible. previously I the tollwerk logo was above it
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sknebel
At least on day one Julie had real talent to catch me always with the weirdest exptessions :P
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sknebel
!tell Sebsel you were right, there is a bit about species in the mf wiki, but IMHO nothing that really makes sense to use?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
just added caching headers to my background map
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sknebel
(in general, if someone has ideas on how to better mark up species names than e.g. <i translate="no" class="species" lang="la">Aegithalos caudatus europaeus</i> (like I did here https://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/25/), I'd like to know
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Loqi
[Sven Knebel] https://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/20/Schwanzmeise_europaeus.jpghttps://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/22/Schwanzmeise_caudatus.jpg winter garden guests: Long-Tailed Tits, Aegithalos caudatus europaeus
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[kevinmarks]
The species microformat stuff was pretty speculative, and all by one person as I recall
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sknebel
seemed so
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Zegnat
Make it class="h-species" and you are done, sknebel ;)
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sknebel
and I talked to people who deal with this professionally and the taxonomy stuff is a still changing, even for "easy" things like birds
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sknebel
(case in point, the file names reveal that we at first thought these 2 birds in the post were two different subspecies, which lead to a few long e-mails back and forth with an expert and reading a few papers to conclude that no, they probably just are differently colored ones of the same species
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sknebel
hm, I could pin a post with links and translations to different languages in the category for the species
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Zegnat
Or do what I did for pronoun and link to an external resource that describes the specie instead of trying to document it yourself
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[kevinmarks]
Species taxonomy is another example of trying to impose a hierarchy on something that is more complicated than that. It is also under pressure from dna sequencing that challenges the underlying structure.
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[kevinmarks]
I'd suggest redoing or updating the research phase, as I suspect that you'll find different classification details among different communities of practice.
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sknebel
yes, its still changing, and often the modern taxonomy isn't all that useful because it doesn't match the grouping observers use. so I'm not convinced there is much value in marking it up etc outside of dedicated databases that are properly maintained. just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anthing interesting
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Zegnat
sknebel, did you check schema? Would not be surprised to find they have tried something
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sebsel
I can't find one in the full hierarchy http://schema.org/docs/full.html – only 'AnimalShelter' and 'Creation' (instead of creature) and no 'Species'.
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Loqi
sebsel: sknebel left you a message 42 minutes ago: you were right, there is a bit about species in the mf wiki, but IMHO nothing that really makes sense to use?
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Zegnat
sebsel, looks you are right. Not even schema covers taxonomy/species
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Zegnat
The taxon property on this old proposal is the closest it got, that I can find: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/BioDatabases
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pfefferle
good morning
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skippy
ahoy hoy
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Zegnat
!tell tantek re: diversity at conferences, craft-conf has special “diversity tickets”, which I personally find weird but are rooted on an interesting idea. https://craft-conf.com/2016 (down the page)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme
in other news, back to working on my website rewrite
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ben_thatmustbeme
in laravel
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ben_thatmustbeme
adding packages for indieauth too
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@iwontsignuphere
... aaand just finished uploading the photos of @indiewebcamp - @btconf edition from Düsseldorf! @sipgateDE <3 https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/albums/72157680685498553 (twtr.io/1RzrTtmviD5)
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sebsel
did Facebook get rid of the 'maybe' RSVP?
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sebsel
I can only do 'yes' 'ignore' and 'interested'.
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voxpelli
sebsel: yes, they probably felt "Interested" was a more accurate label on the actual behaviour
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sebsel
ah, I thought they at one point existed next to eachother
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sebsel
but according to http://microformats.org/wiki/rsvp-examples#Facebook
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Loqi
rsvp-examples
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sebsel
they are different for private and public events
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Getting plugged in – part 4: meta boxes" by Colin Walker on 2017-05-22 https://colinwalker.blog/2017/05/22/getting-plugged-in-part-4-meta-boxes/
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[colinwalker]
Afternoon all
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miklb
good morning!
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[colinwalker]
Hi miklb
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miklb
O_/
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raucao
hi
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raucao
i just replaced the lanyrd badge on my site with just static markup: https://sebastian.kip.pe/
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Loqi
Sebastian Kippe
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raucao
but now i'm wondering how to mark up events that i'm attending
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raucao
rsvp seems to need content, like "yes" or sth
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sebsel
you can make a h-entry with an u-in-reply-to and a p-rsvp :)
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raucao
and just normal hevent doesn't communicate my attendance and is sometimes mistaken for my site being the publisher/organizer of the event, or not?
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sebsel
no need for an p-/e-content
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miklb
https://twitter.com/elemanssoftware/status/866683031184175108
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@elemanssoftware
News Explorer 1.6 for #macOS introduces support for #JSONFeed! Find out what's new in our blog: https://betamagic.nl/blog.html https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAcS20YWsAUwzsy.jpg (twtr.io/1S00RBHnUdU)
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raucao
sebsel: cool. how would i structure that?
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sebsel
raucao here are mine: https://seblog.nl/rsvp
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@Lansyn
Das #indiewebcamp auf der #nueww @tollwerk ! #lansyn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0VCDDqVF08&feature=youtu.be&a= (twtr.io/1S00_2rKpL0)
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sebsel
raucao nd for more examples, see http://indieweb.org/rsvp#How_to
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sebsel
does that help?
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raucao
thx, yes
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raucao
so i use an empty element for the p-rsvp
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tantek
why?
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Loqi
tantek: Zegnat left you a message 3 hours, 9 minutes ago: re: diversity at conferences, craft-conf has special “diversity tickets”, which I personally find weird but are rooted on an interesting idea. https://craft-conf.com/2016 (down the page)
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raucao
tantek: that's what i just saw?
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raucao
i don't know what the content of the element would be in my case
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raucao
that's kind of my question
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tantek
hmm - that's a last resort
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sebsel
hmm, raucao are we talking about the events on your homepage?
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tantek
raucao - do you ever RSVP to an event without any content?
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raucao
tantek: yes, i have rsvps with content on my status posts site, but on my homepage i just want to showcase the events people can find me at
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raucao
so i'm wondering how to communicate that in code
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raucao
it's just "i'm attending this", not an action rsvp
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tantek
do you have "i'm attending this" in the visible text of your site? or is it implied by a heading or such?
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raucao
if it's possible to have rsvps without content (as it seems it is, according to sebsel's site), then i might forgo the other ones tho
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raucao
it's only implied
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raucao
but not strongly
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raucao
just says "conferences" right now, but i can change that
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raucao
was trying to come up with sth better anyway
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sebsel
tantek, just before you joined: https://sebastian.kip.pe/ is the site
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Loqi
Sebastian Kippe
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schmarty
raucao: i currently show my upcoming events for which i have RSVP'd "yes" on my homepage as an h-feed of h-events. https://martymcgui.re/
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Loqi
Marty McGuire
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raucao
schmarty: cool
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raucao
i think combining that with sebsel's data element might make sense
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raucao
`<data class="p-rsvp" value="yes"></data>`
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raucao
or not
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tantek
raucao - implied in a list perhaps a good reason - though in that case, why bother marking up the RSVP at all since you're not expecting it to be consumed that way (in the presence of a list)
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tantek
you migh as well just mark them up as events in a list
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tantek
raucao - basically, you really should avoid invisible markup unless you have a REALLY good reason and solid understanding of WHY you are doing it
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raucao
ok, thanks
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tantek
and in particular, there MUST be a consuming code use-case
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tantek
if not, then don't bother with it
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raucao
well there is
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tantek
no one consumes RSVPs in a list
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tantek
so I'm curious to hear what you think would/does
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raucao
you don't have to consume them in a list tho
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raucao
it would be enough to send a webmention to the page
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tantek
the use-case we are talking about is a list. if you have another use-case then we can discuss that separately
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raucao
so yer, i'd tend to go with sebsel's approach
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raucao
and no event list
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raucao
sry /to the page/with the page url/
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sebsel
note that my list of RSVP's is a list because it's a feed of h-entry:s, which are filtered to show only rsvp's.
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tantek
sebsel's home page shows a list of events, not RSVPs
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tantek
if all you're showing is event information, then it's a list of events, not RSVPs
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raucao
it shows a list of rsvps
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tantek
if however you are showing "i'm going to", "i'm interested in", "can't go to" etc., then it's a list of RSVPs
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sebsel
my homepage shows a feed, https://seblog.nl/rsvp shows all rsvp's of that feed :)
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raucao
my point is that in my case i communicate that i'm attending those, not just that the event exists
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tantek
it's not an RSVP unless you're actually showing something that makes it an RSVP above and beyond an event
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raucao
that would be the headline and the implied context
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raucao
so an rsvp is required to appear in a feed?
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raucao
i think not, right?
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tantek
raucao - no, rather, markup is required to have a consuming code use-case, otherwise, don't do it
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tantek
so if there is nothing consuming rsvps in a list or feed, then don't mark them up
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sebsel
raucao I see you already have an explicit way to rsvp: https://updates.kip.pe/2017/-1
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Loqi
[Sebastian Kippe] Yes: Finally a proper excuse for my yearly Portland visit.
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[chrisaldrich]
Good morning indiewebs. Hello Loqi.
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raucao
sebsel: yes, but i don't like it
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raucao
tantek: not sure what you mean. if i mark them up as rsvp and send webmentions with that page as url, the reply-to would be enough to discern them, no?
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raucao
so there is a consumer use case
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sebsel
yes, but then the URL of your RSVP would be your homepage
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raucao
yes
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raucao
not possible?
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sebsel
any post receives its own permalink
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raucao
so rsvps are required to live on their own page?
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sebsel
if you click on any of my RSVP's icons, you'll get to their own page
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tantek
no because that page is not a permalink
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raucao
yer, but why shouldn't that just be my homepage with the rsvp list?
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tantek
because you are not your rsvps
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dougbeal
Good Morning Indiewebs
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tantek
and certainly you are not just a single rsvp
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tantek
which is what the consuming code expects
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tantek
it's like the difference between a tweet permalink and a twitter profile
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raucao
it doesn't matter if i am my rsvps or not, the point is that before an event that page contains my rsvp data and afterwards it's still a valid backlink
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tantek
but not a permalink by any reasonable definition
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sebsel
what is permalink?
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Loqi
A permalink is a URL which typically represents and retrieves a single post (also explicitly called a post permalink) https://indieweb.org/permalink
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sebsel
that way you can talk about a post, because it has an identifier.
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sebsel
point is: you can show it on your homepage! The first post on my homepage is an rsvp
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sebsel
but it also lives on https://seblog.nl/2017/05/22/9/reply
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb gaat misschien naar dit evenement.
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raucao
but i don't want software to talk about my old rsvps after an event. if i'd unpublish the permalink that would surely be much worse than having a permanent personal website linked, no?
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sebsel
the feed is marked up to show that url as the url of the RSVP.
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@jkphl
Had the pleasure of giving a short interview about our @indiewebcamp last weekend. https://twitter.com/Lansyn/status/866683444524441600 (twtr.io/1S02s7izgnj)
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raucao
sebsel: also a good idea
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tantek
raucao you removing an RSVP is basically saying, no I didn't really attend
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raucao
so, in summary: if i want to show them as rsvps on my homepage, i shouldn't do that, because in the future that url will not contain my rsvp anymore
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raucao
i think i understand the concerns
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raucao
thank you again!
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tantek
so if you're trying to say that, then sure, otherwise you're miscommunicating
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tantek
your summary is a good one
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tantek
but it still makes sense to show them as events on your home page
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tantek
a bunch of folks do that (myself included)
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sebsel
raucao A way of deleting your RSVP would be to return a HTTP 410 'Gone' header on the permalink, and then resend a webmention.
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sebsel
but you need a permalink for that to work :)
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sebsel
I don't know how many webmention receivers have implemented that, though.
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tantek
sebsel - pretty sure that's in the implementation report
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tantek
check out webmention.rocks - pretty sure you can find it linked from there
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sebsel
yep! https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/summary/
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sebsel
I have to get out of this train and the next one is without wifi
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@Lansyn
@jkphl @indiewebcamp the other part will be online this week :) (twtr.io/1S0563Ckwq9)
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tantek
good morning #indieweb
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[cleverdevil]
Did a little Q&A with a guest blogger on owning your own data – https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/2017/05/22/own-your-online-content/
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schmarty
nice to see so much encouragement to own your content on your own domain without diving into developer specifics
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[cleverdevil]
Trying to get louder about the principles 🙂
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tantek
wow after Indie Web Week - a quiet week of no IndieWeb related events
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Zegnat
None?! :o That settles it, HWC at my place
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@webrocker
<345 wondertom.de desktop greets from #indiewebcamp düsseldorfhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/34658843412/in/album-72157680685498553 (twtr.io/1S0DXcgUG4L)
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@webrocker
<345 http://www.wondertom.de/ desktop greets from #indiewebcamp düsseldorf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/34658843412/in/album-72157680685498553 (twtr.io/1S0DpX1qEkL)
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miklb
Zegnat I'll be right over
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miklb
fwiw, vultr has the $2.50 vps open again
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miklb
ping me for a affiliate link :-)
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Zegnat
miklb, you are welcome. sebsel just cancelled so I have a bed free ;) hahaha
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Loqi
Zegnat: lol
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miklb
I'm guessing if I could swing that flight, IWS would be in the cards too
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Zegnat
Where is miklb?
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Zegnat
Hmm, I thought Loqi had been thought that one
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Zegnat
s/thought/taught/
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miklb
/me is in Tampa, FL US
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Zegnat
I have had a friend nag me to go there. Intercontinental flights are not in my cards either though
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deathrow1|absnt
what is rocket.chat?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "rocket.chat" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10iX
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deathrow1|absnt
https://github.com/RocketChat
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deathrow1|absnt
https://rocket.chat/
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KartikPrabhu
how is this related to indieweb?
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deathrow1|absnt
seems interesting as it is (for comparison) small enough to run on a rasperry pi 2/3 (excluding mongodb)
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gRegorLove
miklb: What's vultr?
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miklb
VPS hosting provider https://www.vultr.com
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miklb
1/2 cost of DO for same specs
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miklb
I'm not running anything mission critical there
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miklb
but haven't had any issue with my bot running on the platform yet
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miklb
going to run a Jekyll site off of one of those now that they are open again
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gRegorLove
Cool
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gRegorLove
They closed registrations?
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gRegorLove
Heh "Vultr Vultr is like AWS but simple." on /hosting
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miklb
gRegorLove they were "out" for awhile after announcing those.
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miklb
they had the larger plans still
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skippy
the small plan is only available in Miami, for me.
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miklb
ah
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tantek
hey has anyone used Bridgy Publish to recently post a photo to FB / Flickr / Twitter?
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tantek
seems to have stopped working for me3
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KartikPrabhu
I did a Twitter photo POSSE just last night
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miklb
I did last night
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tantek
hmm will try unit testing
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gRegorLove
Anything in the bridgy logs?
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tantek
nothing
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[cleverdevil]
Damn – https://github.com/nextcloud/news/issues/150 😕
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Loqi
[BernhardPosselt] #150 Looking for new maintainers
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miklb
indeed a bummer
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schmarty
s/a bummer/an opportunity!/ :}
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miklb
lol
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[cleverdevil]
Its a great reader, honestly.
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[cleverdevil]
Its become an essential part of my current workflow.
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miklb
[cleverdevil] did you see News Explorer added jsonfeed today?
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[cleverdevil]
I did see that.
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tantek
what is News Explorer
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "News Explorer" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10iY
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miklb
found it interesting they were so quick to add to desktop app
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miklb
News Explorer is a Mac desktop feed reader
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Loqi
ok
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[cleverdevil]
I mean, that's the beauty of JSONFeed.
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[cleverdevil]
Its ridiculously simple.
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KartikPrabhu
[cleverdevil]: give it time ;)
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[cleverdevil]
(Slightly too simple at the moment, but that's beside the point).
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[cleverdevil]
I like to see excitement around feeds again.
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[cleverdevil]
Maybe it'll push for more movement in the reader space, too.
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schmarty
[cleverdevil]: does NextCloud News support h-feed?
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[cleverdevil]
I don't think so.
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tantek
what is NextCloud
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Loqi
Nextcloud is an open source software project for self-hosted personal web services including a file manager (an indie version of Dropbox), music, calendar (CalDAV), contacts (CardDAV), and more https://indieweb.org/Nextcloud
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ben_thatmustbeme
basically it seems like a lot of devs don't want to include a parser
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ben_thatmustbeme
this is why i think getting jsonfeed & jf2 unified would be really useful
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ben_thatmustbeme
as you can publish a json equivalent that you don't have to maintain, it just links to an external service that will do the parsing for you
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ben_thatmustbeme
either that or propose just straight up json version of parsed microformats as a competing verion
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ben_thatmustbeme
version*
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gRegorLove
What is JSONFeed?
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Loqi
jsonfeed is jsonfeed.org https://indieweb.org/jsonfeed
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tantek
wow Facebook's "Would you like to tag Person Name?" on photos has gotten really good
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[colinwalker]
Frustrating - 'save_post' doesn't appear to get triggered when posting to WordPress using Workflow.
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miklb
does Workflow use REST API?
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miklb
either way, sounds like a bug on one end or the other
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[colinwalker]
Not sure but it's annoying 😉
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gRegorLove
/me is reading http://inessential.com/2017/05/17/json_feed
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gRegorLove
particularly the section about microformats
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gRegorLove
The concerns / criticisms there have been pretty well answered already, I think.
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KevinMarks
That's the bit I want to respond to, but don't want to bikeshed and put them off
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[cleverdevil]
They're generally pretty pragmatic, I've found.
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Zegnat
I think their argument comes mostly down to the fact they are application developers and JSON is part of their programming language, while XML and HTML require extra libraries to start parsing them. That’s how I read that, anyway.
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gRegorLove
So they push the extra library usage to the publishers
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[cleverdevil]
Sure, but, in their defense, its trivial to implement on *both* sides.
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snarfed
right. (gRegorLove technically they're pushing sidefile maintenance to publishers, not library usage)
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skippy
http://www.metafilter.com/167047/JSON-Feeds#7032349
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gRegorLove
I disagree. Generating an entirely new feed file on my site is more difficult than consumers implementing one of the libraries already available
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gRegorLove
The new feed file offers me no noticeable advantage currently, either
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tantek
indeed
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schmarty
so far i am only aware of one consumer of jsonfeed
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tantek
burdening millions of publishers instead of a handful of consuming code implementations seems like the wrong trade-off and yet expected result of when consuming code implementations make a collective decision amongst themselves.
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skippy
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14360729
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skippy
interesting discussion points at MeFi and HN.
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skippy
sorry if y'all have already read all those. new to me.
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gRegorLove
Haha "By tomorrow, technical recruiters will be seeking people with 7-10 years experience in this."
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Loqi
gRegorLove: lol
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benwerd
Good day, indieweb. I am here to complain about JSONfeed.
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2017-03-31 at 7:08am UTC: did RSVP support break on Known event posts? My RSVP just shows up as "yes", and counts as a "comment" apparently. Seems confusing. http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-april-5-2017
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2017-04-07 at 12:05am UTC: could you post the HWC SF 2017-04-05 photo? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-04-05-homebrew-website-club#Photos Thanks!
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Loqi
benwerd: snarfed left you a message on 2017-04-22 at 10:12pm UTC: any chance you'd consider sharing the list of subdomains on hosted known for a community project?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 week, 2 days ago: what do you think of the merged HWC Where/venue and RSVPs e.g. here: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-05-17-homebrew-website-club#Where ?
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gRegorLove
Timely, benwerd!
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: welcome! finally
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skippy
would it be better to have those "X left you a message" be private messages?
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[cleverdevil]
Hahah
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[cleverdevil]
waves at benwerd
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benwerd
skippy: nah, public shaming is fine with me
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benwerd
/me waves at cleverdevil
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skippy
fine with you, but noise for me, benwerd. :)
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benwerd
;)
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gRegorLove
!tell benwerd no shame here, only indieweb love.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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benwerd
/me <3 indieweb
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benwerd
/me !<3 JSONfeed
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[cleverdevil]
FWIW, I *did* implement JSONFeed in Known - https://cleverdevil.io/content/all/?_t=json
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[cleverdevil]
😛
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GWG
Afternoon
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benwerd
/me <3 cleverdevil, too
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benwerd
but seriously: if only there had been some other format for representing streams of activity in JSON
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[cleverdevil]
No pull request, yet.
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benwerd
I would accept it
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benwerd
For sure
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benwerd
But I'm also annoyed by its existence
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benwerd
Not the PR's existence
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benwerd
but JSONfeed's existence
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benwerd
/me clarifies
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: why?
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KartikPrabhu
or rather what do you think is "annoying"
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Loqi
[superfeedr] " @bsag have you looked at known for blog / posse needs? This post was written on my known instance & then possed to pnut. It does webmentions & micropub too, for indieweb kudos. " by Daniel Goldsmith on 2017-05-22 https://hylozoist.ascraeus.org/2017/bsag-have-you-looked-at-known-for-blog-posse-needs
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benwerd
Using JSON is not annoying. I actually really like that. What I think is a little sad is that there were already formats for representing this kind of data
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: you mean like parsed h-feed or some other one?
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benwerd
modern activity streams, for one, is json-first
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KartikPrabhu
yes, that was the other example I could think pof
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KartikPrabhu
anyway standards gonna standard
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KartikPrabhu
https://xkcd.com/927/
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Loqi
[XKCD] Standards https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
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benwerd
now I'm wondering if I'm being a grouch
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[cleverdevil]
https://github.com/idno/Known/pull/1761
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Loqi
[cleverdevil] #1761 JSONFeed
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[cleverdevil]
There you go Mister Grouchy.
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[cleverdevil]
😄
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gRegorLove
Haha
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KartikPrabhu
s/emerging/proposed
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gRegorLove
benwerd: There was some chat just before you arrived on JSONfeed, did you see that?
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benwerd
no
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benwerd
cleverdevil: :D I'll pull that in tonight
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gRegorLove
Starts https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-05-22#t1495482940281000
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Loqi
[miklb] [cleverdevil] did you see News Explorer added jsonfeed today?
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bear
*another* feed format?
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bear
just put me out of my misery now
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gRegorLove
I think I had a similar internal reaction, benwerd, but tried not to sound grouchy about it. I don't think you sounded too grouchy, btw. (But maybe bias, heh)
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KartikPrabhu
bear: or you can decide not to use it and live in peace
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bear
I used to think that, except as someone who is supposed to be helping with python related tools for indieweb...
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KartikPrabhu
bear: you don't have to make/maintain anything you don't use yourself
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KartikPrabhu
if someone wants to make a JSONfeed thingie for python then can do it
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bear
and as someone with some experience in the long view, if I don't pipe up and point out how NIH and anti-DRY this is, then ...
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KartikPrabhu
bear: that you should do :)
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Zegnat
So far there is only 1 consumer, so there is no rush, bear
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bear
do then do the jsonfeed folks have a writeup of all the ways that other formats failed in what they want to implement
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bear
oh? folks == 1
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KartikPrabhu
bear:https://jsonfeed.org/version/1
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gRegorLove
What is RSS Atom wars
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Loqi
The RSS Atom wars (AKA "syndication wars") were a toxic plumbing debate about the merits of using Atom vs RSS that dragged-in and distracted numerous high level web technologists from 2003-2007 while social silos (Facebook, Flickr, Twitter, etc.) emerged, rapidly innovated UX, and thus gained popular adoption https://indieweb.org/RSS_Atom_wars
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KartikPrabhu
bear: so far the only "reason" is the following line "Developers may groan at picking up an XML parser, but decoding JSON is often just a single line of code." in the draft spec
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sknebel
I'm curious to see who adopts it. It would be a good thing if it lead to more feeds being available, but I wouldn't be surprised if its going to be primarily on sites that already have good feeds. And the long-tail of sites with RSS/Atom in various stages of brokenness that's probably the main challenge for /readers isn't going to change presumably?
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Zegnat
Well, I am not staying up for this conversation. Have a good night all!
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bear
bah - as much as I myself don't like parsing XML (chew on that a bit)... the "it's JSON so it's *easier* to handle" is a strawman
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sknebel
Zegnat: good idea, good night!
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KartikPrabhu
sknebel: the brokeness of RSS/Atom is due to having sidefiles and I don't think JSONfeed helps there
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bear
but yea, i'm just going to get some popcorn and start taking bets on how many weeks this YATFF lasts
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Zegnat
bear, definitely a strawman, considering the problems with JSON parsing: http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php
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Zegnat
JSON << http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php
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Loqi
ok, I added "http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php" to the "See Also" section of /JSON
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sknebel
KartikPrabhu: that's part of the problem, but not the only one. e.g. I follow feeds that don't properly link their posts in the feed, mess their timestamps up, I bet in the ducts below there are tons of issues with caching, ... all of which you could break in an embedded feed just as much
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[cleverdevil]
Ideally, these folks would have just adopted something that already exists, and bring attention to it.
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gRegorLove
By embedded feed, do you mean in HTML?
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[cleverdevil]
But, that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
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sknebel
gRegorLove: yes
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KartikPrabhu
sknebel: sure but they are visible on the webpage and so easier to catch/fix
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gRegorLove
They can break as easily, but are much easier to notice since it's visible.
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gRegorLove
Yeah, what KartikPrabhu said. :)
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KartikPrabhu
basically WWTD
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KartikPrabhu
;)
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sknebel
partially. I mean, here we see people mess up on what to put the h-entry or various properties, that's also only visible if it breaks bridgy or you look at it through a parser. But it certainly helps!
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KartikPrabhu
sknebel: also you only have to fix it one place
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KartikPrabhu
if I break my Atomfeed it is probably due to a broken h-feed and I only have to fix the h-feed
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KartikPrabhu
today in JS frameworks -- https://twitter.com/brad_frost/status/866769542877523968
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@brad_frost
Hey React people, I'm commenting closing tags (like a good dev), but JSX comments throw an error for the outermost tag. // comments work. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAdhhdgXsAEHR9y.jpg (twtr.io/1S0XKS2mJso)
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GWG
snarfed: Looked at the debate on Post Kinds vs Micropub Rendering
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snarfed
hey, i saw
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GWG
snarfed: Post Kinds is a UI for creating Microformats. As is a Micropub server. Is it worth exploring the idea of writing a rendering plugin that is independent of either?
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snarfed
right, i saw you asked that in the issue. i'll weigh in soon!
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GWG
Ok
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miklb
where was that debate?
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GWG
https://github.com/pfefferle/SemPress/issues/51#issuecomment-303151049
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Loqi
[snarfed] another problem: micropub renders at write time, into post_content, but sempress and post kinds (i think) render to HTML at page load time. so, when a post is created, if post kinds doesn't support a property but micropub does, micropub will generat...
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miklb
GWG the kind-photo view I sent a pull request adds the photos to posts using `$meta->get( 'photo' )`
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miklb
fwiw
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miklb
unless I am misreading the issue thread
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miklb
One thing w/ OYG, if not using the json format, then it doesn't upload a photo to the media library, it just passes the IG url and gets stored in mf2_photo
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GWG
miklb: It has generated a broader discussion.
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miklb
hmm. I see. My vote would be to leave it to plugins/themes to do all rendering
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GWG
miklb: But Micropub and Post Kinds appear to be competing for that
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miklb
Post Kinds renders with a template that can be customized. Micropub wants to insert HTML into the post, correct?
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GWG
miklb: Two different approaches
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miklb
yes, but one can easily be over ridden, the other, where markup is hardcoded into the post content, not so much
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tantek
what is JSON feed
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "JSON feed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10iZ
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tantek
oops wrong channel. heading to #dev
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aaronpk
i keep getting confused when i read stuff like this in the backscroll: "another problem: micropub renders at write time"
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aaronpk
i guess that's talking about the micropub wordpress plugin?
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miklb
yes
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GWG
aaronpk, yes. It generates html at time of post creation as opposed to at time of display
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aaronpk
good so youre not talking about the spec then :)
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dougbeal
aaronpk: is the OwnYourGram repo ready to run?
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aaronpk
I think so
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aaronpk
probaly not super great docs for that tho
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dougbeal
aaronpk: I'm putting together a wordpress docker system, to make it easier to track and fix bugs
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aaronpk
Ah nice
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dougbeal
aaronpk: is it using a framework or anything? Or is just composer/php all the necesssary?
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aaronpk
Running composer install will install all the libraries it needs
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aaronpk
it uses MySQL as well, the schema file should be up to date
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dougbeal
aaronpk: is there a secret file for database login connections?
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dougbeal
aaronpk: n/m, found it
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aaronpk
I should really get in the habit of making a quick list of installation instructions for these things
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Loqi
I agree
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi has spoken!
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dougbeal
o/ goodnight indieweb
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[jeremycherfas]
What is YATFF?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "YATFF" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10ie
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(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)