#indieweb

2017-02-23

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tantek_
tap tap tap
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tantek_
what is a map?
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Loqi
The social web map is a metaphoric map of social web sites, from fully indieweb to silos, representing their relationships, sizes, levels of IndieMark accomplishment (or site-death) and any other axes of interesting details we can capture https://indieweb.org/map
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tantek_
Here's some inspiration for /map : http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/11/14586934/arlin-ortiz-fantasy-maps-art-illustration
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petermolnar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Atlas_of_Fantasy
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GWG
Morning
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Loqi
rise and shine!
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jihaisse
hello GWG
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GWG
Hello, how is your return to active status treating you?
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GWG
Had time to explore the changes?
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jeremycherfas
GWG: I’ve just converted on of my WP sites to use the senpress theme. Haven’t done anything yet about the indieweb plugins. I see from the chat that there are modifications under way. Do you think it might be a good idea to wait a while before going ahead with that?
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jeremycherfas
Not in any rush.
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dgold
jeremycherfas: which of your sites is using Senpress?
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dgold
I'd like to see it working in the hands of someone who has WP abilities
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jeremycherfas
Fornacalia.com which might need to be www.fornacalia.com
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jeremycherfas
But I haven’t done a whole lot of styling yet.
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jeremycherfas
My playtime today was devoted to starting on Review pages in my Grav site.
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dgold
looks _sharp_
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jeremycherfas
Yah think?
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jeremycherfas
I need to get rid of the dorky avatar, author name and all that, for a start. Maybe color code some of the H2 and H3. That kind of thing.
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jeremycherfas
Oh, hang on. I’ve just noticed that I decided on ZenPress rather than Senpress in the end.
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dgold
I like the minimalism thing - I've never been able to pull it off though
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jeremycherfas
Thanks. Less is more.
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GWG
What modifications specifically? We are always improving. I am on a program to improve all the ones I am involved in before starting anything new
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jeremycherfas
I can’t be specific; just things that flitted by in the discussions. It seemed like there were quite a few changes and cleanups being contemplated. If those changes are liely to have an impact on how I manage things at my end, then I will probably hold off for a while.
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GWG
Likely not that bad. It is mostly under the hood
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@t
#100DoPP d35 great #indieweb chats @sknebel @slalomfahrer @jkwebtec & HWC Berlin organizers @derhess @sebastiangreger! (ttk.me t4n01) (twtr.io/1Nq49NWD1Dd)
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Loqi
[indieweb] "#100DoPP d35 great #indieweb chats @sknebel @slalomfahrer @jkwebtec & HWC Berlin organizers @derhess @sebastiangreger!" on 2017-02-23 http://tantek.com/2017/054/t1/great-indieweb-chats-hwc-berlin
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jeremycherfas
GWG: Ok, thanks.
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jihaisse
GWG: « how is your return to active status treating you? » : Slowly :)
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jihaisse
For now, I’m reading and thinking
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jihaisse
and my thoughts was : maybe I could fix the social plugin for wordpress
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snarfed
that way lie dragons :P
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jihaisse
snarfed : True
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aaronpk
Ghost << https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/ghost
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/ghost" to the "See Also" section of /Ghost
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sknebel
does anyone we know have a chat widget on their page through which they can be contacted?
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aaronpk
oh man i used to have that a loooong time ago
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sknebel
sgreger asked about it yesterday at HWC, and my search turns up tons of services for those annoying "talk to us" popups for e-commerce sites, but not much for other use-cases
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aaronpk
ah yeah i was going to say
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sknebel
aaronpk: I assume you had an IRC channel as the backend?
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aaronpk
of course
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jeremycherfas
Has anyone here created a child theme of the ZenPress WP theme?
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bear
I used (many many moons ago) had a "type something and it will be forwarded to bear" link
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aaronpk
i had a form that would send me an SMS, way before smartphones
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aaronpk
hah here it is http://2008.aaronparecki.com/sms/
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aaronpk
i don't think it still works
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bear
mine was a perl cgi script that sent my xmpp server a message
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aaronpk
lol! it sends to my email now
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petermolnar
aaronpk if you want an sms server, buy a cheap thinkpad t400/x200 w/ a 3g modem, add gammu-smsd on it with a stupid linux and you're done
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petermolnar
indiesms
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aaronpk
i wonder how the cost of that compares to using twilio
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petermolnar
5gbp per month -> unlimited sms within network, 500(?) outside
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aaronpk
we don't have plans like that in the US :)
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petermolnar
I'm doing that because I sometimes misconfigure alerts and they send _a lot_ of false things
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petermolnar
and I don't want to destroy my wallet with an external service
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sgreger
sknebel, thanks for following up on the chat question. it'S rather low priority at this point, i was mainly curious are those "annoying pop-up services" really the only way to do such thing.
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petermolnar
(btw this is pre-paid)
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petermolnar
5 GBP (as british pounds)
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aaronpk
hm there is someone that will give me unlimited SMS for $6/mo
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sknebel
sgreger: I went through a few of my bookmarks, most of the things seem pretty dead :/
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Loqi
[indieweb] "@sdepolo and I hanging out by the Post-Its at Homebrew Website Club. #indieweb" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-02-23 http://werd.io/2017/sdepolo-and-i-hanging-out-by-the-post-its-at-homebrew
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sgreger
aaronpk: i have been playing around with distributed indieauth (trying to write a little piece that authenticates me to log in to the wiki based on me being logged in to my wordpress site) - i'm running in one issue though
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sknebel
found this, which is bound to telegram and I don't like the UI, both on the web and telegram side, but at least its recent and open-source: https://github.com/idoco/intergram
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sgreger
without touching my code, sometimes it works and i get authenticated, other times i get an error page
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sgreger
is the authentication through indieauth.com throttled? like only three logins per hour or so?
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sgreger
(more likely the error is in my code, but just thought to check)
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sgreger
"There was a problem. Something went horribly wrong!" ;)
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aaronpk
that's odd, let me look at some logs
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sgreger
that would be great. i just tried a moment ago (after 2h break) and received that error again. debugging is a bit tricky, as it seems to be an issue with the final step (indieauth.com verifying the code from my endpoint, the POST request...)
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aaronpk
aha, it's getting a 301 redirect on the post
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sgreger
sknebel: thanks, i'll have a look at it
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sgreger
aaronpk: my site returns a 301?
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aaronpk
your authorization_endpoint on your home page is https://sebastiangreger.net/indieauth but that is actually just a redirect to https://sebastiangreger.net/indieauth/
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aaronpk
so the POST fails
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sgreger
argh
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aaronpk
we were just talking about this yesterday :)
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sgreger
thank you! that piece of information (the 301) was the missing piece. i was literally ripping my hair out earlier. i could just not figure it out...
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gRegorLove
Good morning, indieweb
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aaronpk
cool! should be an easy fix
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sgreger
now it works. with repeat success. i can authorize myself simply based on the fact that i am logged in to my site
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aaronpk
woo
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Zegnat
Alright, I made good on my itch for yesterday’s HWC (https://licit.li/58af1f9599091). No I have time to start on bloggercode, petermolnar ;)
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sgreger
yes, it was as easy as adding the slash to the <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href
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sgreger
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 472 karma in this channel (1225 overall)
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sgreger
"An authorization endpoint must be able to both generate authorization codes as well as verify authorization codes." -> so this means, my little hack is not really a proper endpoint, because it does not allow verifying codes from other sites?
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aaronpk
?
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aaronpk
the wiki had to verify your code at your authorization endpoint
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aaronpk
that's the verification it's talking about
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aaronpk
(or rather, indieauth.com did on behalf of the wiki)
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[chrisaldrich]
jeremycherfas, I had a child theme of sempress a while back which was probably pretty close. I didn't realize how nice senpress was until I got lost in the rabbit hole of content on fornicalia
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voxpelli
sknebel: sgreger: about the chat thing, not very indie:ish, but Intercom seems to be a very powerful and good such service
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jeremycherfas
I’ve asked Mathias about this on github, but wondering about the structure. As he has it, zenpress is inside ZenPress, and like that, WP won’t see the parent style. if I take zenpress out of ZenPress, everything is fine. But I no longer have the SASS.
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jeremycherfas
I don’t know enough to know whether that will break down the line.
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sgreger
above guote is from https://indieweb.org/authorization-endpoint > the way i read it, my enpoint should also be capable of what indieauth.com does?
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sgreger
...the "verify" part
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aaronpk
oh, no not at all
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aaronpk
refresh. is that clearer?
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sgreger
:) yes!
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[chrisaldrich]
jeremycherfas, usually child themes are more important when building on top of themes from the repository that will update in the future (so you won't overwrite your changes/work). SenPress (the child) is pretty solid and unlikely to change as much as SemPress (the parent), so you probably won't go too wrong in just hacking directly on top of the child theme.
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jeremycherfas
True, but I also want to keep my changes fairly discreet. All working well locally, but I’ll wait to hear before I publish.
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[chrisaldrich]
I don't think SenPress is in the main WP repository, so you're unlikely to see an autoupdate message and accidentally overwrite your work there, but be aware that it could happen.
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[chrisaldrich]
(and make sure you keep a back up just in case)
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[chrisaldrich]
I saw your question to GWG earlier. Like him, I think that a lot of the WordPress Indieweb plugins are pretty mature, so you're unlikely to have any major issues down the road if you start using them now. Most changes will just add small bits of functionality that you might not even notice since they're in the background.
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[chrisaldrich]
It's not like the situation a year or two ago where there were some major changes which might have kept you on your toes (but which honestly weren't hard to overcome with help on Github or here in chat).
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jeremycherfas
Chrisaldrich: Thanks. Yes, that’s next on the list for that site,, then the other sites. But first I want to tweak how it looks just a bit.
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[chrisaldrich]
I like that it's a much prettier visual experience over the prior incarnation which was either 2015 or 2012 if I remember?
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[chrisaldrich]
Though for a semantically marked up site about bread, one would expect you might have "breadcrumbs"? https://wordpress.org/plugins/breadcrumb-navxt/
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[chrisaldrich]
Apparently not even Loqi would laugh at that one. 😞
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[chrisaldrich]
jeremycherfas, I've been thinking more about an indieweb podcast; last night for HWC quiet writing hour I started outlining some potential interviews along with lists of evergreen questions
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jeremycherfas
That’s very cool. I’d love to collaborate.
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jeremycherfas
I spent this morning looking through the chat logs and thinking I’d been safely tucked up and fast asleep.
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[chrisaldrich]
You have far more experience and expertise on the technical side so that would be a grand help.
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[chrisaldrich]
Don't let me keep you from dreaming about bread...
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sgreger
voxpelli: thanks for the hint. but indeed, not the "indie" solution i was daydreaming of.
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aaronpk
now i want to make a chat widget for my site again
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jeremycherfas
Maybe we could find a time to chat one to one about how to proceed?
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[chrisaldrich]
I try to be careful of reading through chat logs too often. Causes too many itches I don't have time to scratch.
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jeremycherfas
I’m horribly completist like that.
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[chrisaldrich]
With the time difference (from Los Angeles to Rome?) what might work well for you?
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sgreger
my idea was that it could be some very simple and sleek ui, which then talks to some "bridge" connecting with my preferred chat ui
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[chrisaldrich]
I'm typically a night owl, but I'm often up early on Tuesdays and Thursdays for occasional conference calls to the UK/France.
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jeremycherfas
Chrisaldrich: I’m an early bird, so if you are up late and I am up early, that works.
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[chrisaldrich]
choose your favorite day anytime after Monday next week, and I shall appear with bells on.
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jeremycherfas
8am for me is 11 pm for you. Would that work?
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jeremycherfas
Done tinkering. Better go prepare food.
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[chrisaldrich]
sure 11pm is more than fine, I can go as late as 2ish if necessary
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snarfed
*massive* outside-looking-in discussion of indieweb and more: http://llllllll.co/t/building-the-world-you-want-to-live-in/6599
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aaronpk
wow
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bear
/me reads
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snarfed
tough but fair imho
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aaronpk
it's actually a great discussion and everyone is being very civil :)
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[chrisaldrich]
There are one or two deviations of civility, one sadly pointed at Tantek
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Zegnat
There are definitely things in that discussion worth addressing. It also shows that people (with the best intentions) visiting indieweb.org have a hard time figuring out what it is about.
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gRegorLove
Yeah, I think people are looking for a more discrete, monoculture-ish definition of indieweb. "Oh, it's software that does x, y, z"
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[chrisaldrich]
With things like webmention and micropub as far along as they are, we're getting closer and closer to Generations 2 and 3. A few larger scale projects like Manton's or what I suspect DreamHost wants to do with it in relation to WordPress may help be tipping points to scaling these functionalities to a larger audience.
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[chrisaldrich]
The real question is "how would you sell this to your mom?" We're really trying to sell a nebulously defined abstract construct rather than a concrete end-product.
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gRegorLove
snarfed: You should add "spit-and-baling-wire to the short Bridgy description. Haha
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Loqi
hehe
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Zegnat
That makes it sound like we are an incubator for the standards of tomorrow
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snarfed
lol
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[chrisaldrich]
Facebook, Twitter, and others cornered the market before the necessary standards to overcome the hurdle of "Web 2.0" were created, so it's a bigger uphill battle trying to regain that ground. The nice part is that many people, as evinced in that link, know we could do better. The best part about IndieWeb is that it's actually starting to physically happen here. How do we underline this point on the front page?
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@seometadaten
DreamHost is a proud sponsor of @indiewebcamp meetups! Right out of our #PDX office, no less! #webdesign #blogging https://twitter.com/DreamHost/status/834583641942523904/photo/1 (twtr.io/1NqSM4jewSf)
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aaronpk
🤔
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aaronpk
oh I didn't see that tweet yesterday! https://twitter.com/DreamHost/status/834583641942523904
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@DreamHost
DreamHost is a proud sponsor of @indiewebcamp meetups! Right out of our #PDX office, no less! #webdesign #blogging https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5UJZgzXUAA7S3r.jpg (twtr.io/1NotisYMJrj)
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[chrisaldrich]
Mention DreamHost and see what you get?
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@100daysindieweb
Day 65: Implementation Report Template for Micropub Clients #100DaysOfIndieWeb: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/02/23/6/day-65-micropub-implementation-reports (twtr.io/1NqT8s3x_4q)
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KartikPrabhu
that thread (though largely civil) is a good example of why forums don't work for fruitful discussions
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KartikPrabhu
"explain indieweb in 2/3 sentences..." <explanation> "but that is not enough <rant> "
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voxpelli
One of the great things in IndieWeb is that we can support both experimental dev work and mature products at once – unlike Twitter that closed down their API when they needed to polish their UX
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[chrisaldrich]
aaronpk++ for underlining the point of incremental change with his #100daysofIndieweb post just now
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Loqi
aaronpk has 473 karma in this channel (1226 overall)
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voxpelli
So there can be some IndieWeb endeavors that are at the very polished state and at the same time be some others that are very rough – silos can't do that because they often need to fit it all into one product
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voxpelli
aaronpk: "as soon as possible" would be neat to have somewhat more specific – upcoming days? weeks? months?
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aaronpk
ideally I'd love to have 1-2 more by Monday
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voxpelli
:/ You don't have one from me, right? I don't have time to sit down with IndieWeb stuff this weekend so can't do Monday :(
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aaronpk
it should take about 5-10 minutes to complete
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aaronpk
and I don't have any except for my own yet because I just made it :)
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[chrisaldrich]
That's a great point voxpelli. In fact, when was the last time a social platform made a large transformative change in it's own functionality. It seems like the market is relatively saturated. Take yesterday: Instagram unveils multi-photo which seems like something they should have had years ago, but only seems to expand on their own "stories" functionality and making it more permanent, while underneath it all isn't it just geared toward try
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[chrisaldrich]
Snapchat's lunch?
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[chrisaldrich]
Often we see major corporations simply supporting the masses and not attempting to push the boundaries. I love that indieweb seems to be pushing on the boundaries. Reminds me of some interesting philosophy in Marco Arment's podcast recently: http://boffosocko.com/2017/02/02/%F0%9F%8E%A7-under-the-radar-65-getting-sherlocked-under-the-radar/
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] 🎧 Under the Radar 65: Getting Sherlocked | Under the Radar http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/d5fb4e498fe609cc29b04e5b7ad688c4?s=42&d=mm&r=pg
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voxpelli
Yeah, I think some are so set on the silos mindset that they think that as a project matures it has to inherently stop developing itself, and that should certainly not be the case with IndieWeb
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[chrisaldrich]
What is sherlocked?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sherlocked" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10ay
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[chrisaldrich]
Sherlocked is when an individual developer's project is knocked off by a much larger corporation, typically subsuming a large, but not complete portion of the functionality.
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Loqi
ok
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[chrisaldrich]
Sherlocked << https://overcast.fm/+FgnZDbtyM
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Loqi
ok, I added "https://overcast.fm/+FgnZDbtyM" to the "See Also" section of /Sherlocked
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[chrisaldrich]
Building on voxpelli's thought, I'd submit that Indieweb is building something which inherently can't be sherlocked because of continual growth and development.
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dgold
"something like "modernised NTTP running over zeromq."
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dgold
eh...
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dgold
presuming they meant NNTP, I don't think they've been using 0mq much - it is wonderful for consistent connections, but really poor at maintaining unused links
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gRegorLove
what is NNTP?
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Loqi
https://indieweb.org/nntp
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aaronpk
indieweb.camp is expiring today, we didn't do anything with it last year, and it is now up to $40/yr to renew. i'm kind of tempted to let it drop.
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bear
+1 - i've been letting a lot of domains just fall away myself
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KevinMarks
Oh, I thought you used that for the registration
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KevinMarks
I am shedding a lot of domains too. Partly because Google made them annoying to renew
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aaronpk
we used 2016.indieweb.org last year
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sknebel
thought about grabbing hwc.berlin, but at 50 € vs 5 € for a "boring" .de...
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sknebel
Risks of centralized internet services 101: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=1139 ( OUCH! )
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sknebel
(well, maybe that's worded a bit unfairly, it could have hit the same number of sites through a widely used product instead)
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cweiske
ouch
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sknebel
(but the fact that it mixes sites (which it seems to do) is only possible because it is centralized like that)
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sknebel
cloudflare statement: https://blog.cloudflare.com/incident-report-on-memory-leak-caused-by-cloudflare-parser-bug/
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voxpelli
/me thinks about the bearer token arguments and why it's enough to rely on https alone and not so any OAuth 1 style signing of things
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[chrisaldrich]
Is it just me, or is the wiki not working with /fragmentions at the moment? https://indieweb.org/fragmention##this+wiki
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aaronpk
ohh i bet i never put that in the new theme
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aaronpk
yeah that problem was definitely made worse because of how many customers they have
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aaronpk
cross-customer leakage is way worse than if you happened to be using a buggy webserver yourself
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Read posts nearly perfected!" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-02-23 http://boffosocko.com/2017/02/23/read-posts-nearly-perfected/
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sknebel
yeah, that's what I missed at first
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Comment on PressForward as an IndieWeb WordPress-based RSS Feed Reader & Pocket/Instapaper Replacement by I've moved a big step closer to perfecting my "Read" posts!" by I've moved a big step closer to perfecting my "Read" posts! on 2017-02-23 http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/31/pressforward-as-an-indieweb-wordpress-based-rss-feed-reader-pocketinstapaper-replacement/#comment-33930
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@ChrisAldrich
I've moved a big step closer to perfecting my "Read" posts! #IndieWeb http://boffosocko.com/2017/02/23/read-posts-nearly-perfected/ (twtr.io/1Nqq_G3zy_f)
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GWG
Greetings
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GWG
I seem to be getting activity on my WordPress trac ticket about disabling trackbacks by default.
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GWG
Makes me think that I should address that
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GWG
Anyone heard about this? http://www.androidpolice.com/2017/02/23/google-introduces-perspective-machine-learning-initiative-help-police-comments/
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KevinMarks
hm, medium has https://medium.com/browse/history - I wonder if that could be PESOS'd
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@DanielCBerman
@8BIT Have you come across the #Indieweb movement? Fascinating ideas and concepts about owning your own content https://twitter.com/hashtag/indieweb?f=tweets&vertical=default&lang=en (twtr.io/1Nr7m6qVdmQ)
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aaronpk
oh interesting
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aaronpk
https://twitter.com/8BIT/status/834855772580356098
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@8BIT
🤔 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5YA5D3WAAAQVVq.jpg (twtr.io/1NqWw_mkM8J)
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aaronpk
"we will now charge a one-time payment of $75, which includes your domain setup, an SSL certificate, and ongoing support for your domain on Medium"
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aaronpk
clicking the emoji on my site is so fun
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Loqi
Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2017-02-24.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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[acegiak_net]
So I just added a post to my site with a syndication link to a tweet with the same content that I posted BEFORE the post. Will Bridget pick that up and bring me back replies to that original tweet?
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GWG
Greetings, [acegiak_net]
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[acegiak_net]
Hi!
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GWG
[acegiak_net]: Working on a WordPress trac ticket.
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[acegiak_net]
Neat!
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GWG
techlifeweb opened a ticket on the Webmentions plugin, which had me doing a deep dive into the fact that custom post types require you to declare trackback support in order to get pingback and webmention support...
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GWG
So I want to fix the issue in Core that equates them.
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[acegiak_net]
Oh, hey, the bridgy thing worked!
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[acegiak_net]
Sometimes I want to be able to pesos a tweet to my blog and have responses come over. Nice to know I can do that!
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GWG
[acegiak_net]: snarfed might want to note that in the docs.
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GWG
[acegiak_net]: Can I ask your opinion on something I'm wondering?
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GWG
Should the Webmentions plugin require custom post types to declare their support for it?
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[acegiak_net]
Why should they?
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[acegiak_net]
Webmention is on a piece of content with a URL
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GWG
Well, right now, for webmentions to work, you have to declare support for trackbacks
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[acegiak_net]
Ok, so is that a technical limitation?
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GWG
Because of a change they made in 4.3
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GWG
No, its a setting
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[acegiak_net]
I don't see the advantage of requiring it then
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GWG
It can be safely assumed that if you installed the Webmention plugin, you want to enable Webmentions on posts, but not on pages or custom post types
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GWG
So as it stands now, Webmention will not be supported for anything but posts. No custom post types, no pages.
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@DanielCBerman
@8BIT If you haven't already come across it, check out http://indieweb.org as well. (twtr.io/1NrG6XPUj5L)
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mblaney
aaronpk I haven't implemented much of the spec, but submitted an implementation report for dobrado
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jihaisse
Hello
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KartikPrabhu
yo!
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jihaisse
:)
(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)