#indieweb

2015-05-03

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@pintman
Die IndieWeb-Bewegung steht für Kontrolle über eigene Daten, eigene Tools, Maschinenlesbarkeit und Spaß. http://indiewebcamp.com/principles #fb (twtr.io/z133rjYhf0)
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@martinlindner
Mal statt coden hier lernen einsetzen: Via @pintman: Die IndieWeb-Bewegung (das Programm): http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twtr.io/z14x3BY1mf)
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aaronpk
good morning from Amsterdam!
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elf-pavlik
slvrbckt, ahoy o/ could you possibly from http://sockethub.org think about https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/4 ? we can discuss it further in Dusseldorf together with aaronpk :)
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@martinlindner
@mccab99 ja, die tendenz ist nicht gut. deshalb ja #indieweb usw. (kennst du @withknown ?) (twtr.io/z1C43Gq2Jf)
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@mccab99
@martinlindner @withknown Hoffentlich ist in ein Wiki nicht schon #indieweb. #withknow ? Erster Blick: SameAsUsual. #vorurteil (twtr.io/z1CF8FUXHM)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub (+207) "/* Overview */ link to some RFCs" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub (-53) "/* h-entry */ update some properties in some examples" (view diff)
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@hackr
breitband (min 33-41) mit @pfefferle zum indieweb http://breitband.deutschlandradiokultur.de/brb150502/ (@pfefferle twitter suche ist mittlerweile tats. gut u vollständig) (twtr.io/z1Fogo9YaC)
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@martinlindner
RT @hackr: breitband (min 33-41) mit @pfefferle zum indieweb http://breitband.deutschlandradiokultur.de/brb150502/ (twtr.io/z1GXcoueMb)
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elf-pavlik
what is capability url?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "capability url" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=capability+url&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430647939413
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aaronpk
sounds like a bearer token
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elf-pavlik
capability url is Capability URLs grant access to a resource to anyone who has the URL. There are particular application design patterns for which this is useful as they remove the necessity for users to log in to a site and are easily delegated to others. But their use can open up some security issues. URLs are not generally required to be kept secret, and there are various routes through which capability URLs can leak into unintended hands. This
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elf-pavlik
document provides some good practices for web developers who wish to incorporate capability URLs into their applications, to minimise these risks. http://w3ctag.github.io/capability-urls/
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loqi.me
created /capability_url (+478) "prompted by elf-pavlik https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430647939413 and dfn added by elf-pavlik" (view diff)
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Loqi
ok
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elf-pavlik
which one can *dereference*
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elf-pavlik
what is dereferencing?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "dereferencing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=dereferencing&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430648007695
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: is that copy-pasted from somewhere else? that's generally not okay for the IWC wiki because of copyright
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elf-pavlik
Copyright © 2015 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio, Beihang). W3C liability, trademark and document use rules apply.
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aaronpk
yeah that's not compatible with CC0
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aaronpk
better to describe the term in your own words in the context of the indieweb
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elf-pavlik
i'll turn it into qoute
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aaronpk
generic definitions of terms aren't super useful for the wiki
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elf-pavlik
what is conneg?
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Loqi
conneg is short for HTTP Content Negotiation, a method by which a browser or other web client can request content of various types from a web server, and depending on what is requested, and what the server supports, it tries to provide the best it can https://indiewebcamp.com/conneg
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elf-pavlik
i didn't make this one...
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aaronpk
that appears to be original text https://www.google.com/search?q=%22a+method+by+which+a+browser+or+other+web+client+can+request+content+of+various+types+from+a+web+server%22
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /capability_url (+53) "turned into quotation with link to the source" (view diff)
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aaronpk
any indieweb examples of this?
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elf-pavlik
see reply-to https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594122594632228866
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@elfpavlik
@remotestorage_ do you still use https://github.com/w3ctag/capability-urls for /public scope? maybe worth referencing this @w3ctag draft... (twtr.io/yxF96ago16)
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elf-pavlik
also https://twitter.com/skddc/status/594146758504099840
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@skddc
@elfpavlik We set up a wiki, but it's still almost blank. Feel free to register and drop notes at https://wiki.remotestorage.io/index.php/Notes or anywhere else. (twtr.io/yxPn1Xyyqf)
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aaronpk
if you can find URLs of indieweb sites that use it, create an "== IndieWeb Examples==" section on the page to start collecting them
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elf-pavlik
slvrbckt and @skddc will come to Dusseldorf ...
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elf-pavlik
as well as fkooman and @michielbdejong who both work(ed) a lot on https://remotestorage.io/
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aaronpk
cool
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elf-pavlik
we can document their real world usage of capability urls then
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aaronpk
this is interesting... we're missing a piece to reliably send notifications of comments/likes on posts
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aaronpk
...to readers who are not the author
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, do you have this 'missing piece' documented somewhere?
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aaronpk
as soon as I commit this, yes
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aaronpk
it's hard to explain so is better read in this context
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aaronpk
going through this user story piece by piece is really helpful. I would love to see the others do the same
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aaronpk
here is the writeup. search for "TODO" for that missing piece
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aaronpk
https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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@dkreuz
Die aktuelle @screengui_de zum #indieweb gab es leider nicht mehr am Bahnhofskiosk. Dafür die vorletzte MM mit einer Geschichte von Don Rosa (twtr.io/z1ZPdVyNrj)
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@Freerange_Inc
hmm #indieweb tools focus on individual & their data rights, not many focused on the social justice implications of normalised surveillance? (twtr.io/z1_2LkeZc4)
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aaronpk
that seems kind of like saying "why doesn't this apple taste more like an orange! they're both fruit!"
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning #indiewebcamp
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow that was a lot of logs to catch up on
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: did you catch the part that mentioned you mentioning how hard it is to catch up on logs now? ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell tantek yes, I was commenting on not being able to catch up on logs. The length of logs + added line noise of loqi, what-is requests, tweets, etc
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was just bringing that up
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aaronpk
i'm still planning on shortening the "what is" links so at least those will be less ugly lines
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell tantek makes it so that I often do not bother, but will usually do just a quick skim. The recent conversations were largely interrupted and I had a free block of time, so I did read back
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, At this point i've started reading back logs from the website because too much of IRC is muddied up
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aaronpk
totally, the web logs are way easier to read
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have a feature request on that end though... is it possible to get loqi to log slack/<user> as just <user>
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Loqi
yeah!
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ben_thatmustbeme
and thus make it actually look like the people who are talking
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aaronpk
yeah like he does for twitter
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aaronpk
and wiki edits
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ben_thatmustbeme
I may throw in some JS to have a button for hiding wiki edits and or all of loqi
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ben_thatmustbeme
also tweets
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ben_thatmustbeme
just get to the actual conversation
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aaronpk
or RTs
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aaronpk
anyway ben_thatmustbeme I'd love to get your input on this https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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ben_thatmustbeme
still reading through... but interesting thoughts about pubsubhubbub. I really don't like it for the fact of huge spec with lots of extra but then doesn't work for things like this.. PuSH only works for subscribing to feeds.. I feel like we need to be able to subscribe to posts as well... similar to FB & G+ once you comment on a post (g+) or are tagged in a post (FB) you are subscribed to it and get future updates on
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ben_thatmustbeme
that post
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aaronpk
a post is a feed of comments on the post
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aaronpk
also PuSH works just fine for subscribing to changes of a specific thing
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ben_thatmustbeme
btw, section 4 has Host:ben.me instead of Denise.me
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmmm
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aaronpk
yeah PuSH 0.4 barely mentions "feed" at all, and only in examples
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aaronpk
(thx for catching that, i knew iwas gonna mix one of those up)
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aaronpk
but the crazy thing is right now, as long as we're talking about posts that are on the home page feed, that whole story works fine as described
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed
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aaronpk
it's only once a post moves off the front page that it becomes important to be able to subscribe to specific posts for changes
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ben_thatmustbeme
disagree
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ben_thatmustbeme
that assumes people want to subscribe to the ENTIRE feed always
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aaronpk
let me rephrase. it doesn't matter if the feed is a home page feed or a path.
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ben_thatmustbeme
and actually it all works without PuSH for the entire user story after the first part of people getting notified of the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme
updating people of changes to like count, replies, etc is not really a part of the user story
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aaronpk
it is, because of "indicates to Alexa and others"
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aaronpk
and #4 is ambiguous because it sais "Denise indicates" but doesn't specify to who
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ben_thatmustbeme
"[Ben] indicates to Alexa and others"
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ben_thatmustbeme
you are doing "ben indicates to Alexa, and Alexa indicates to others"
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ben_thatmustbeme
what Ben should be doing is notifying his push hub of the "like" post
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aaronpk
i was assuming "others" meant the same people that saw the original post
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aaronpk
in which case the only way to do it is for alexa to push it out
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aaronpk
(turns out these stories are ambiguous in many ways once you start digging in to them)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think it makes more sense the other way, its the same as 'Ben favorited a post by Alexa' showing up in a twitter feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
its ben's followers that get that update
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ben_thatmustbeme
only Alexa gets a notification that someone favorited her tweet
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aaronpk
but everyone who looks at the tweet sees ben's like
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, but you aren't updating people that ben favorited it
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aaronpk
that depends on what you mean by "updating people"
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ben_thatmustbeme
people who view the tweet get that at the time they view it
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aaronpk
here's the thing though
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ben_thatmustbeme
you are focusing on feed readers needing that information
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aaronpk
if you're only using your reader to view things, your reader needs to be made aware of that like
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ben_thatmustbeme
true, but i would argue thats outside of the user story
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aaronpk
we might need to clarify that
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aaronpk
i was operating with the asumption that that is integral to the user stories
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aaronpk
shooting for a unified reading/writing interface
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aaronpk
since that's how twitter and facebook became so popular to begin with
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think its good to mention that the update can be pushed out to readers
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i think the intention is to publicly "like" the video which means updating his own followers
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ben_thatmustbeme
perhaps should mention both
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think the case you have now is Alexa updating others' readers of new likes to the post, is at a lower level
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aaronpk
hm, I didn't get that impression. If it had said something like "Charles who is following Ben but not Alexa posts a comment..."
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ben_thatmustbeme
charles I would assume to be a follower of Alexa and that 3 has nothing at all to do with 2
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aaronpk
right which is why I didn't read #2 as ben posting to his own followers about the like
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aaronpk
I wouldn't say lower level tho. Maybe my description went above and beyond the minimum requirements to pass the user story, but I think it's all critical to the end goal
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ben_thatmustbeme
the way you read it 3 should then have "charles posts a comment and indicates to alexa and other others...
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aaronpk
yes i was assuming that any interaction on the original post would be visible to anyone that is following alexa
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ben_thatmustbeme
so why didn't you assume that for 2?
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aaronpk
wait what? that's exactly what i did
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ben_thatmustbeme
thus the text would indicate ben is pushing to his own followers
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, you assumed that the text means that, rather than making the same assumption of subtext indicating it
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ben_thatmustbeme
thus the text => ben pushes to his followers , subtext => updates alexa's followers
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think we are getting too deep in to this
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aaronpk
i'm happy to add a note that ben's followers will also see the like, but that doesn't really change anything else about the description
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ben_thatmustbeme
who originally wrote this user story?
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ben_thatmustbeme
Evan
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ben_thatmustbeme
perhaps we can ask for his intention in it, or at least other's thoughts.
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aaronpk
i'd be curious to hear what he says
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ben_thatmustbeme
is won't be at F2F but i believe he will be remote
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tantek
did we figure all of /SWAT0 ?
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Loqi
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 34 minutes ago: yes, I was commenting on not being able to catch up on logs. The length of logs + added line noise of loqi, what-is requests, tweets, etc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430658495590
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Loqi
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 33 minutes ago: makes it so that I often do not bother, but will usually do just a quick skim. The recent conversations were largely interrupted and I had a free block of time, so I did read back http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430658560628
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aaronpk
the Responses story doesn't mention person tagging, so i'm not sure
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tantek
SWAT0 is the official first user story
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aaronpk
but we are 99% solved for responses: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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tantek
approved before any of them got written
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aaronpk
i guess i should see if i can go write up that one
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tantek
reads logs
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tantek
aaronpk - that's the point - I mostly had written it up on the /SWAT0 page itself
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tantek
and I think that's partly what motivated ben_thatmustbeme to implement person tagging during IWC Cambridge
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aaronpk
let's see what else is missing
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aaronpk
http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0
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aaronpk
1) need to know what receiving a /person_mention looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme
!tell elf-pavlik catching up on your questions of content type header for html+microformats. I don't think it makes sense. You would need headers for html+rdfa+mf2, html+mf2, html+rdfa, html+... and every other format that ever gets made. Its not at all sustainable or desirable
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
er sorry that was 2)
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aaronpk
i think 3) is okay, assuming i'm reading and writing everything from my reader app, even if my reader app is not the same as where the reader app stores the data (my website)
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_negotiation
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Loqi
elf-pavlik: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 57 seconds ago: catching up on your questions of content type header for html+microformats. I don't think it makes sense. You would need headers for html+rdfa+mf2, html+mf2, html+rdfa, html+... and every other format that ever gets made. Its not at all sustainable or desirable http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430660777073
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aaronpk
i think 5) can be solved with PuSH now, but i'll have to run thrugh it
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elf-pavlik
you don't need new header but just a profile *paramter* to go with text/html media type
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: ben_thatmustbeme: can we please not argue about conneg again?
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aaronpk
at least until there is some demonstrated actual need for it other than "I want it"?
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elf-pavlik
instead html+rdfa+mf you can ask for either rdfa or mf prioritising them with q=
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, ok no problem to leave it for now
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tantek
sorry elf-pavlik there's no evidence you need conneg at all for HTML+microformats. please don't bother re-raising until you've built/deployed something that demonstrates a need.
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tantek
we should probably put that in an FAQ since it keeps coming up
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Loqi
agreed.
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tantek
I'm going to delete /capability_url since it's entirely a quote from another source and has no original content
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek.com * deleted "[[capability url]]": entirely a quote from another source and has no original content
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aaronpk
also conneg is primarily there to benefit the consumer of the data, so making arguments about why publishers benefit from using conneg is kind of missing the point
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i reraised it, thats my fault
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tantek.com
edited /proof_of_work (+92) "/* Why */ cite for less noisy logs desires" (view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek++ for updating /SWAT0 after getting person tgging figured out! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=SWAT0&action=historysubmit&diff=18443&oldid=13627
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Loqi
tantek has 184 karma
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tantek
aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure we can do SWAT0 *without* PuSH, and we should.
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aaronpk
actually yeah it can't use PuSH because the last step is people getting a notification of a comment from someone they're not subscribed to
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elf-pavlik
ben_thatmustbeme, i've heard that you have example of pushing data to web browser...
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elf-pavlik
i started adding http://www.w3.org/TR/eventsource/ to my website, what do you use?
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: kylewm did that for Woodwind, and I do for the IRC logs
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aaronpk
i'm using websockets right now but i'm going to switch to Eventsource with websockets fallback soon
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elf-pavlik
cool!
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elf-pavlik
do you have section for pushing to client e.g. web browser on a wiki?
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elf-pavlik
what is server sent events?
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Loqi
server-sent events is a DOM API for receiving push notifications from a server via HTTP https://indiewebcamp.com/server-sent_events
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elf-pavlik
what is websockets?
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Loqi
Websocket is a full-duplex single socket connection over which messages can be sent between client and server https://indiewebcamp.com/websockets
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elf-pavlik
what is real-time?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "real-time" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=real-time&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-03%2Fline%2F1430661483234
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elf-pavlik
what is webrtc?
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Loqi
WebRTC is a free, open project that enables web browsers with Real-Time Communications (RTC) capabilities via simple JavaScript APIs https://indiewebcamp.com/WebRTC
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, did you have chance to take a look at https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD#pubsub-notifications ?
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aaronpk
tantek: oh no now you're gonna make me figure out the micropub version of person tagging!
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: yes, I don't understand why it requires websockets and why it didn't use PubSubHubbub or eventsource
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ben_thatmustbeme
elf-pavlik: I have it working the chrome only. The latest version added Push support so I am using that
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/11
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tantek
aaronpk - ben_thatmustbeme already figured out the micropub version of persontagging
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tantek
just not area tagging
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ben_thatmustbeme
but they don't support sending data yet, so its just a notification to a web-worker that can then pull data
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tantek
which actually revealed that our area tagging approach needed to get redesiged
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tantek
s/redesiged/redesigned
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: which actually revealed that our area tagging approach needed to get redesigned
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, area tagging needs some embedded items
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aaronpk
frankly websockets is way overkill for a simple pubsub mechanism. websockets gives you a two-way channel and you're effectively only using one direction then
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ben_thatmustbeme
or at least it seemed so
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aaronpk
hokey i'd better read up on person tagging since i haven't really been following it
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elf-pavlik
i made that point in github issue just linked
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elf-pavlik
"If you only use Updates-Via to receive updates. It may make sense to mandate SSE instead of Websockets."
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aaronpk
I like SSE because it's just HTTP where the connection stays open
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elf-pavlik
preferably HTTPS :)
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aaronpk
of course :)
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elf-pavlik
https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594762809717587968
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@elfpavlik
Deprecating Non-Secure HTTP! -> #HTTPS @mozilla @w3c @ietf @EFF and others join efforts to make The Web secure! https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/ (twtr.io/z13r8TqJso)
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aaronpk
(https is really just http once you get past the TLS negotiation)
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elf-pavlik
what is https?
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Loqi
HTTPS is an abbreviation for Hypertext Transfer Protocol Secure, a protocol for secure communication, supported by web servers (like Apache & nginx) and browsers https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS
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elf-pavlik
what is letsencrypt?
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Loqi
https://indiewebcamp.com/letsencrypt
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: person tagging in micropub is just sending category=http://ben.thatmustbe.me/ right?
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /letsencrypt (+17) "added <dfn>" (view diff)
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elf-pavlik
what is letsencrypt?
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Loqi
Let’s Encrypt is a new Certificate Authority intended to be free, automated, and open https://indiewebcamp.com/letsencrypt
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: thats how i'm doing it, yes. everything else in the the server side
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aaronpk
ok great that makes this easy
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aaronpk
oh interesting, i need to add a new rule to the micropub spec for this
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aaronpk
if a value of a property is a URL, the micropub endpoint should fetch the URL and use the first microformat object as the value
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elf-pavlik
why "use the first microformat object as the value" ?
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aaronpk
maybe "representative object" is a better way to phrase it
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aaronpk
category=http://aaronparecki.com/ <- category is an h-card representing aaronpk
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elf-pavlik
this may help to identify it on a page - http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-resource
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elf-pavlik
or http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-about
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aaronpk
location=https://tommorris.org/places/9 <- location is an h-card representing the venue
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aaronpk
http://indiewebcamp.com/representative_h-card
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aaronparecki.com
edited /representative_h-card (+1) "link to updated page" (view diff)
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aaronpk
!tell benwerd you should consider a fixed-reference paging mechanism for Known, I was searching google for a photo and of course now that you added photos, offset=489 has a totally different set of photos now
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
Does anyone put h-feed on single pages as opposed to archives?
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aaronpk
single pages as in pages with only one entry?
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GWG
aaronpk: Yes.
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aaronpk
that wouldn't really make sense since it's not a feed
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GWG
Then why do most WordPress themes do it? No wonder I'm having parsing trouble.
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: it could be seen as a feed of updates on a posr
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GWG
Although they are using hfeed, not h-feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i wouldn't recommend it
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aaronpk
probably because of the way the wordpress templates are reused
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aaronpk
hm, #3 "barnabywalters, who is subscribed to benwerd..." I guess I can describe "is subscribed to" wtihout PuSH, it's just gonna mean his reader is polling
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aaronpk
I will mention PuSH as an optional optimization
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aaronparecki.com
edited /SWAT0 (+42) "clarify barnaby does not need to see the photo on his home page, needs to see it in his reader. also PuSH is an optional enhancement" (view diff)
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aaronpk
i'm going to keep pushing this btw
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aaronpk
using a reader that is not the same system that is your website is totally fine
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aaronpk
having your reader be your website is also totally fine
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aaronpk
but if all my website does is render microformats feeds, accept webmentions, and expose a micropub endpoint, I don't see why using someone else's reader to read and write to my site is a problem
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AcidNerd
still wondering how this reader part will be "live" under Known or WP, but i love the idea, if only i could embed my own website with my current inoreader usage and push new articles i want to share directly to my site
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aaronpk
i think acegiak is using a reader that is part of wordpress, are there any screenshots?
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GWG
aaronpk: acegiak uses Whisperfollow. I believe there is a video of usage.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /SWAT0 (+132) "solved how to receive a person-tag" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /SWAT0 (+280) "/* mapping to indieweb */ note using a separate reader is ok" (view diff)
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GWG
Okay...just filed an issue against _s on them putting hfeed on all pages.
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aaronpk
cool
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GWG
It was messing up my attempts at parsing pages. I can't fix every theme in the world, but if I can fix the starter theme all bundled themes have been based on for the last few years...
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aaronpk
upstream++
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Loqi
upstream has 1 karma
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aaronpk
the real qustionin this SWAT0 thing is the last step... does barnaby's website send webmentions to both aaron and ben? or does barnaby's website mention ben, which then sends a webmention to aaron for the update?
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aaronpk
i think i'll write both so we can review
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aaronpk
no it can't be both because barnby didn't actually mention me
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GWG
I'm looking through code again and seeing people styling against microformats classes. I'm thinking that may not be the best practice.
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aaronpk
hokeedokee
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GWG
Trying to figure out what makes the most sense in that regard.
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aaronpk
GWG: i believe we've had this discussion before, and the general consensus was to not style microformats classes, but some people do and it doesn't really hurt anything in the long run
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aaronpk
!tell tantek here is SWAT0 accomplished with Micropub, Microformats and Webmention. PuSH is mentioned as being an optional enhancement.
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GWG
The reason why I'm bringing it up again is looking at what would possibly break if I tried to get the bad behavior of WordPress fixed.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
ah gotcha
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GWG
WordPress puts hentry on everything.
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aaronpk
you know, the other solution to this is to stop back-compat parsing in the parsers
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GWG
I thought a saw a discussion about parser behavior in that regard. Wasn't there a scenario where if it saw an mf2 element, it would ignore mf elements?
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aaronpk
yeah i can't remember where that discussion left off
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kylewm
GWG: yes that's correct
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kylewm
but it's scoped to the individual element, so if there is an h-entry, it won't apply backcompat to anything inside that h-entry
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kylewm
(the parsers haven't implemented this yet)
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GWG
kylewm: A lot of themes in WordPress have an hfeed at the top of every page. How would that be interpreted under that?
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GWG
I'm having trouble figuring out how to frame the conversation with a group of people working on a project that has just inserted hentry and hfeed around everything about why they should change that. Or how they can without breaking half of the sites that expect it.
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rhiaro.co.uk
edited /2015/Edinburgh (-5) "Fix guest list link" (view diff)
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kylewm
GWG: I know we discussed what happens if there is a top-level h-feed -- do you ignore all hCard entries inside that or not? having a little trouble finding it
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kylewm
GWG: what motivated them to add hfeed and hentry in the first place?
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GWG
I think when Google jumped on the bandwagon
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GWG
I believe they've moved to a new bandwagon ow
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GWG
now.
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kylewm
oh here, right at the top http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#uf2_children_inside_a_classic_microformats_root_class_name
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kylewm
uf2 children inside a uf1 parent class will show up in the "children" collection
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GWG
My best hope right now I think is to add more control so it can be overridden.
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kylewm
it seems like a chicken or egg problem, i imagine it would be hard to sell them on changing the core markup to support a standard that relatively few sites support
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kylewm
adding more control so it can be overridden sounds great
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GWG
kylewm: I go back to the break a large number of themes argument. Which is the one I'm preparing to counter.
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KevinMarks_
If you have a post with a series of comments, but the comments don't have permalinks, how do you mark that up?
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snarfed
KevinMarks_: sounds like you just omit u-url etc?
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GWG
I need to file some issues.
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Loqi
[bridgy] Nick Jennings replied '@elfpavlik @sockethub sure, what kind of comparison did you have in mind?' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/slvrbckt/status/594901852900175874)
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KevinMarks__
That's what I did, but should I have an h-feed to contain them or not?
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KevinMarks__
They have timestamps so the ordering can be reconstructed
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KevinMarks__
I suppose I could make a fragmention url with the comment text
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Loqi
[bridgy] ☮ elf Pavlik ☮ replied '@slvrbckt @sockethub similar to: github.com/aaronpk/Microp… also for @SocialWebWG user stories impl. proposals in github.com/aaronpk/Microp…' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594908133593522176)
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GWG
https://github.com/Automattic/_s/issues/740
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GWG
Okay, this is going to be fun
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Loqi
[bridgy] Ben Borges favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/594101362683674624)
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kylewm
so Known wants the ability to query Bridgy to see if a particular user is connected ... would it make sense to add microformats with a bunch of experimental properties on user pages https://www.brid.gy/facebook/12802152
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kylewm
i'm thinking the parent would be an h-card, and the properties woudl all be like p-bridgy-something
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@yatil
Meh. No trains running means it is very unlikely to get to Düsseldorf for IndieWebCamp Germany… Especially as I travel to the US next day… (twtr.io/z20Dvypdqf)
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aaronpk
kylewm: what about just u-url to other profiles?
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aaronpk
kind of like a rel=me link
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aaronpk
or if you're on a user page, you could actually do rel=me
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snarfed
aaronpk: that's already there. kylewm is thinking of exposing bridgy-specific data: is the user acct connected, when were they last polled, etc
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snarfed
https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/395
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aaronpk
oh gotcha
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snarfed
hey GWG your web actions plugin isn't in the wp plugin dir yet, right?
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aaronpk
sure experimental properties sound like fun :)
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snarfed
poor monocle. wish i knew why it doesn't like https://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/@me/@friends/@app/?format=html&access_token_key=139199211-7bUqtoRyFJPowpoMZyF2tm91yjHo0vNnULnR3Irz&access_token_secret=oQ3Sdgb8A2zrjaBKbLroBmUmSdunbITZQrq4WOZQ0Lw&
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snarfed
argh, didn't mean to do that. time to revoke that token :P
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snarfed
done
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aaronpk
hah oops
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aaronpk
right now monocle expects to be able to fetch the u-url and it actually gets all the data from there
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aaronpk
the only piece of info it uses in the feed is the URL
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aaronpk
(i'm planning on changing that, but that was easiest to start with)
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snarfed
huh. so if i made u-url point to self, it might work
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GWG
snarfed: It isn't yet. It will be once I feel it is 'ready'.
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aaronpk
it needs to point to a url that has the single h-entry
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snarfed
ah ok. that's doable too.
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GWG
snarfed: Oddly enough, you are one of the things that gives me pause. Also, reply isn't finished yet
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snarfed
i give you pause?
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aaronpk
hmm monocle is probably gonna make you hit the twitter rate limit pretty fast with all the GETs it does
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snarfed
aaronpk: eh twitter rate limiting is per user
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snarfed
(mostly)
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aaronpk
well however many tweets come back in the feed, it's gonna make that many requests as fast as it can
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aaronpk
(per update, which only happens with it gets a PuSH ping)
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aaronpk
(which reminds me, I need to make sure I have an issue there to fall back to polling if no hub is found)
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GWG
snarfed: Not you specifically. A decision you made that I'm trying to cope with.
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snarfed
GWG: you're always so cryptic. :P which decision?
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GWG
snarfed: I've been told that before. You embed your formatting in the content, whereas I add it dynamically. I keep trying to code for both scenarios.
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snarfed
ah right
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snarfed
btw i tried to use the webactions plugin via monocle and got
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snarfed
401 missing access token
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snarfed
does webactions not get a token?
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GWG
snarfed: I don't use access tokens. IT must be trying for the micropub endpoint. It only uses WordPress authentication
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snarfed
ah ok. so i need to use a client that makes normal requests via the top level browser, so it populates the wordpress auth cookie, not via JS?
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snarfed
got a client i can try?
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GWG
snarfed: Woodwind
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GWG
snarfed: It works with Woodwind
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snarfed
huh i didn't see action buttons in woodwind
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GWG
snarfed: Under settings. Either way, as I said, isn't fully fleshed out
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snarfed
GWG: np, just trying it since you asked me to
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snarfed
which setting do i use? configurable action urls?
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snarfed
indie config?
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GWG
snarfed: Configurable action URLs worked for me.
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GWG
snarfed: But, my question is how do I code for static and dynamic markup? I'm having trouble figuring out the best way.
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snarfed
ok. trying the example url in the readme
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snarfed
got me
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GWG
snarfed: /?indie-action=bookmark works for all sites. I'm restricting like and reply right now.
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snarfed
oh so i can only bookmark right now?
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snarfed
hrm ok
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snarfed
(i don't use bookmarks)
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snarfed
GWG: it worked! the link to the bookmarked page has no text, and the post is private, but otherwise it worked
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snarfed
feature requests: support reply/like/repost; let me set categories to use per type
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snarfed
GWG: https://snarfed.org/2015-05-03_113225
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GWG
snarfed: There is an option for public override. I'm defaulting to private till I work out the bugs. Like is sort of working. Categories I can do. As I said, it goes back to the question of the markup. Right now, on my site, the markup is done by the post kinds plugin. Whereas on yours, web actions would mark it up itself. That makes me think I should split display from taxonomy again, but I'm not 100% sure how to make that work
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@huffduffer
☞ Why We Need the IndieWeb https://huffduffer.com/bret/227723 (twtr.io/z264WoCL7U)
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, snarfed in RDFa thanks to consistent use of triples you can use rel="me" on each/any of multiple entities/subjects appearing on the page :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430676428101
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elf-pavlik
IMO this gives much more consistent model and doesn't require duplicating rerms as rel="shortlink" & class="u-shortlink" (while to my understanding they have same meaning)
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elf-pavlik
s/rerms/terms/
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Loqi
elf-pavlik meant to say: IMO this gives much more consistent model and doesn't require duplicating terms as rel="shortlink" & class="u-shortlink" (while to my understanding they have same meaning)
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-rel
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aaronpk
I uh, don't think there's a problem
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elf-pavlik
what stops you from using rel="me" for multiple entities on one page? if you want to express such semanic relationship between resources http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430676428101
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elf-pavlik
and why do you need class="u-shortlink" while rel="shortlink" already exists for this purpose?
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aaronpk
rel values describe the page
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aaronpk
So the microformats parsers return the rel values all in a "rels" array, outside the context of any specific microformats object
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elf-pavlik
so with this interpretation, you can't use "shortlink" for multiple entities present in single page just because of that and need to find workarounds
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elf-pavlik
do you know how many link relations microformat needs to duplicate so one can use them as property?
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elf-pavlik
BTW http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-property
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elf-pavlik
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#A-rel
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aaronpk
Correct, except it's not so much finding a workaround as it is just finding a way to do it, because rel is not supposed to be able to be used for multiple entities on a page
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elf-pavlik
how semanticly link relations used as values of rel differ from u- properties put in class="" ?
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aaronpk
u- properties describe the mf2 object they are inside
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elf-pavlik
do you know about any drawing showing entities and relations between them?
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elf-pavlik
since depending on how you present information inside and outside can swap
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aaronpk
I don't understand the question
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aaronpk
This works pretty well in practice... There really isn't a problem
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elf-pavlik
you never find need to use property in reverse direction?
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elf-pavlik
e.g. on person page link to organizations one stays affiliated with and from organization page link to people affiliated
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elf-pavlik
so perspective changes but you describe exactly the same information
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elf-pavlik
just putting different side of relation 'in spotlight'
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elf-pavlik
or co-authored article links to multiple authors and their profiles link to multiple articles
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elf-pavlik
i could go on with tons of examples you can find on the web where we see same information but just from different perspective
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aaronpk
I don't really see why this is a problem
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elf-pavlik
let me find a microformat property for the example i just shown
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elf-pavlik
let's say https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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elf-pavlik
i will also add it to list of events on my homepage https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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aaronpk
Sure, or link to it from your rsvp post
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elf-pavlik
those two don't exclude each other
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aaronpk
Right, links everywhere
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elf-pavlik
we don't need to 'normalize relational database' and can connect entities with as many edges (rel) as we want
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aaronpk
The guest list will link to you with p-attendee
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elf-pavlik
so i can arrive from A to B via multiple paths
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elf-pavlik
and the *reverse* ?
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elf-pavlik
me to event?
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aaronpk
You'd post an RSVP post
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aaronpk
What is an RSVP?
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Loqi
An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post https://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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elf-pavlik
on my homepage you can find in source <ul rev="attendee" class="panel-body"> and li for each event
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aaronpk
Why?
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elf-pavlik
one event page i would use <ul rel="attendee" class="panel-body"> and li for each person
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elf-pavlik
this way we get triples
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elf-pavlik
event1 attendee elf
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aaronpk
I don't see why that is useful I guess
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elf-pavlik
event2 attende elf
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elf-pavlik
how can you link *directly* to the events you attended
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elf-pavlik
just as even links to list of attendees
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elf-pavlik
same with affiliations on my homepage
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elf-pavlik
we can *very easily* link BOTH WAYS using the same type of relation
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elf-pavlik
( IWC Dusseldorf ) -- attendee --> ( elf-pavlik)
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aaronpk
I know you *can* do things, I don't see why it is useful
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elf-pavlik
node, labeled edge, node
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elf-pavlik
so you say that it matters to show list of attendees on event page, but showing list of events i attended on my page doesn't make sense?
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aaronpk
So unless there is some visible benefit you can describe I'm not really interested in hearing about it
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elf-pavlik
https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/events
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elf-pavlik
https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/map
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aaronpk
Sure showing a list of events you attended is great
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aaronpk
But I haven't heard any reason to add any machine readable markup to that list yet, even microformats
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aaronpk
Start with what the visible benefit is by having that data machine readable, then talk about how to do it
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elf-pavlik
how than friends browsers (similar apps like facebook UI) can display such lists after requesting data from my website?
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aaronpk
Example: wouldn't it be cool if our indie readers could be able to tell when your friends plans intersect with your own travel plans, like an indie Dopplr
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elf-pavlik
buddyradar :)
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elf-pavlik
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Buddyradar_Use_Case
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elf-pavlik
haha two of us in it :D
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Loqi
nice
#
elf-pavlik
small cyberspace ;)
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elf-pavlik
can we generalize readers to *Social* data browsers?
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elf-pavlik
not the whole world needs to gravitate around blogging and sharing notes...
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aaronpk
Probably. Go look at the list of issues for Monocle, I have a lot of plans for that kind of stuff
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elf-pavlik
for buddyradar (or whatever we want to call such setup) we may need way of expressing future activities https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/93
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elf-pavlik
RSVP makes sense here
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elf-pavlik
or CheckIn if i just want to go to Portland not for any particular event
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elf-pavlik
Travel + Arrive + Depart https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Travel
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elf-pavlik
drawing can help with Microformats glasses, JSON-LD glasses, Turtle glasses etc. bariers
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aaronpk
I have travel posts on my site, http://aaronparecki.com/travel but there are no microformats on them because there's nothing that would consume them yet
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aaronpk
I do wanna figure it out and also make indie Dopplr
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GWG
aaronpk: Have you added travel to the wiki?
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elf-pavlik
Pieter will publish soon all the code (javascript) for multimodal trip planner using Linked Data Fragments and Open Data including GTFS
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elf-pavlik
https://speakerdeck.com/pietercolpaert/hypermedia-as-the-engine-for-route-planning
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aaronpk
Not sure
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GWG
What is travel?
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, let's talke about it Paris & Dusseldorf
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Loqi
travel is a post type about plans to change locations in the future, similar to an event post about a future event, and related to exercise posts that involve changing location https://indiewebcamp.com/travel
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aaronpk
aha
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GWG
Okay. Someone did
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elf-pavlik
i wanted to do something like that aleady in 2012 but keep getting distracted https://github.com/elf-pavlik/buddyradar
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elf-pavlik
timbl on rel / rev https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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aaronpk
Train is arriving! gtg
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elf-pavlik
bon voyage!
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/OpenTransport/gtfs-csv2rdf
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elf-pavlik
good luck with gtfs-csv2mf2 ;)
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GWG
tantek: Did you get to Paris yet?
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tantek
kylewm: just saw your question re: custom h-card properties - wondering if it can be done with u-url or rel=me links instead
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 5 hours, 42 minutes ago: here is SWAT0 accomplished with Micropub, Microformats and Webmention. PuSH is mentioned as being an optional enhancement. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430667120302
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tantek
aaronpk - nice!
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tantek
reads logs and sees aaronpk already suggested same thing to kylewm :)
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elf-pavlik
tantek, do you see problem with using http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values as microformat u- properties?
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@chuq
@deirdresm Indieweb rocks. (twtr.io/z2MHxeZYWx)
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elf-pavlik
like http://microformats.org/wiki/shortlink
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elf-pavlik
at least one from xfn might make sense on h-card http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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elf-pavlik
e.g. RSVP +1 comming with my muse https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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@dangillmor
Pager, which lets you make your own site from Facebook posts, is interesting addition to the @indiewebcamp movement https://github.com/antonshevchenko/pager (twtr.io/z2MwVV0fKD)
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elf-pavlik
s/one/ones/
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@allenpg
RT @dangillmor: Pager, which lets you make your own site from Facebook posts, is interesting addition to the @indiewebcamp movement https:/… (twtr.io/z2NBpaEa1L)
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elf-pavlik
can't spell, needs go to sleep to prepare for day full of work on social vocabs: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Day_1_-_Monday_4_May_2015
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tantek
elf-pavlik: yes - using anything without a use-case is a problem
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tantek
also - page scoped rel values often behave differently than element scoped microformats properties
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elf-pavlik
pays attention
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elf-pavlik
can we go with example of xfn muse ?
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tantek
hasn't been a lot of recent use of rel=muse TBH
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elf-pavlik
date?
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tantek
we've been pretty liberal about accepting values in the rel registry as long as they seemed like they might have some new usefulness
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elf-pavlik
any friend to friend relationships at all which people use in context of indie web?
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tantek
rel-muse was used initially for a few years since introduction (like mid 2000s), but in general a lot of the XFN rel values didn't get much use because they were tied to blogroll useage which itself waned over time
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elf-pavlik
knows maybe, follows
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tantek
rel=contact is used a lot
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elf-pavlik
very social ;)
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tantek
because it is easy to assert by default
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elf-pavlik
can we keep it romantic and imagine RSVP +1 with rel="sweetheart" ?
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tantek
any more assertive values like acquaintance, friend etc. get into the emergent strangeness that is a "facebook friend" vs. a "real friend"
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elf-pavlik
so we can most likely share bed when allocating sleeping places by people organizing event
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tantek
at least that's what we've learned over time by people using XFN, then using only minimal values
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tantek
rel=me is the most useful, then likely rel=contact, then rel=met
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aaronpk
maybe Dora should link to her favorite brand of cat food with rel=meat
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elf-pavlik
they sound bit boring and rel=me even narcistic
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elf-pavlik
do you consider RSVP +1 with *sweetheart* unrealistic ?
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tantek
do you have any real world publishing examples of that?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: rel=me is how IndieAuth works
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tantek
at least the RelMeAuth portion of IndieAuth
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aaronpk
interesting, i've never publicly RSVP'd with a +1 anywhere, only private RSVPs that are seen only by the event hose
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 791 karma
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elf-pavlik
so the host can allocate one bed for me and sweetheart i come with ...
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elf-pavlik
i'll add link *friend* to few friends who also come to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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elf-pavlik
they already listed their homepages so i will just add few rels
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tantek
elf-pavlik: yes we used to do blog posts with various XFN values
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tantek
back when we would mix rel values with content scoping
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elf-pavlik
at least 6 ppl there i consider a friend
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tantek
a bunch of us would do rel=met posts after a conference
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tantek
so you could keep track of who you met when
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elf-pavlik
i want to do that!
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tantek
but lacking any consuming application, I think we eventually got bored and stopped
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tantek
yeah! it was exciting back in 2003-2005 :)
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aaronpk
"lacking any consuming application" <-- that is the key to all of this
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aaronpk
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 185 karma
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tantek
and that consuming application can be *your own website*
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tantek
e.g. if your own website code reads your own microformats and does something interesting (to you) with them, even *that* is good enough
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tantek
hence why we evolved everything in late 2000s to present to be use-case first, format/protocols second.
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aaronpk
now that I think about it, people started doing the rel=met thing again on twitter, but without any structure of course. around 2009-2010 I'd see a looot of tweets like "just had a great chat with @___ over coffee!"
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aaronpk
especially around/after conferences
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elf-pavlik
tantek, http://lanyrd.com/ let's you say *i want to meet*
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tantek
it does - which is an interesting relation!
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elf-pavlik
i already had chance to meet aaronpk but would also like publish fact that i want to meet you sir :)
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tantek
of course it's also a half-implemented feature - no way to say "I did meet them" in Lanyrd :(
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tantek
elf-pavlik: if you like you can add "Want To Meet" as a new heading in microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming, and document the Lanyrd example!
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tantek
no need to create a new rel value yet, but just document the real world example and that you would personally use it on your site.
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elf-pavlik
ok
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tantek
incrementaldocumentation++
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Loqi
incrementaldocumentation has 1 karma
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elf-pavlik
any chance for IndieAuth on microformats.org ?
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elf-pavlik
Permission error
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elf-pavlik
You do not have permission to edit pages, for the following reason:
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elf-pavlik
You do not have permission to create new pages on Microformats Wiki.
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tantek
you shouldn't need to
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Loqi
+1
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tantek
yeah - IndieAuth would be nice there, the microformats wiki predates that :/
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elf-pavlik
missed g
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elf-pavlik
we also need *follows* for Social WG use case
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/property/follows
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elf-pavlik
since we could use rel / rev i dont see need for follower / following
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KartikPrabhu
wasn't rev deprecated and not used anymore
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tantek
yes rev is deprecated because it is too confusing to most people and results in bad data
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tantek
rev is ignorable
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tantek
per usability problems
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tantek
elf-pavlik: pretty sure follower / following is in there
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elf-pavlik
TimBL encouraded *willful violation* here https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39#issuecomment-89789736
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KartikPrabhu
also rev=follow is confusing terminology
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elf-pavlik
follows
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elf-pavlik
knows
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I know rev makes sense to TimBL - but he's an exception
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I don't see it
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tantek
I used to use rev myself
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tantek
and gave up when I kept having trouble explaining to people that would make sense to them
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tantek
elf-pavlik: here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#follower_and_following
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elf-pavlik
some early thoughts on collections which reuse follows relation in both directions https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/container/DirectContainer
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tantek
(along with lots of historical discussion and alternatives considered)
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elf-pavlik
also needed for Social WG use cases
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tantek
elf-pavlik: are you implementing collections on your own site?
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elf-pavlik
yes!
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tantek
where is it in your itches or working on list?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: think of all this as a real world exercise in follow-your-nose
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elf-pavlik
edit to microformats.org first ...
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elf-pavlik
i exactly want to do that but not end upw with: follower, following, followres, followings
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elf-pavlik
and already can think of modeling it with *just* follows
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tantek
no that's incorrect as rel values aren't adjectives but nouns
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tantek
there are only two values there: follower and following - for this use-case
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elf-pavlik
so you would use same one for collection of people you follow and who you follow?
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elf-pavlik
singular forms
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KartikPrabhu
why do we need a term for the collection?
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elf-pavlik
does discussig it in terms of *domain* and *range* of property gives us common language or not so much?
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tantek
elf-pavlik: where are you publishing the collection right now on your own site?
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KartikPrabhu
mark up all people in the collection with rel=following
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elf-pavlik
i have importing list of 2300 friendships from fb on my todo
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tantek
elf-pavlik: don't worry so much about the plumbing/markup - just get something published on your site that shows what you mean
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tantek
start with just a few
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elf-pavlik
https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/issues/5
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KartikPrabhu
what is collection?
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Loqi
A collection is a type of post that explicitly lists and/or embeds multiple other posts chosen by the author https://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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elf-pavlik
tantek, you can clearly see some collections on https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/
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elf-pavlik
for now small but soon they will need to move to dedicated pages
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elf-pavlik
similar to https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/events
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elf-pavlik
https://www.facebook.com/elf.pavlik/friends
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elf-pavlik
also with paging
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tantek
well when they do, you can document them as real world examples
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elf-pavlik
i may hack on that during IWC dusseldorf
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tantek
and then we can explore more questions, til then it's unnecessary to do so a priori
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elf-pavlik
ok
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tantek
elf-pavlik: would be great to see you current list of all the things you're hacking on and wishing you had on your own site
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elf-pavlik
i go edit two wiki pages and then sleep time :)
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tantek
your "Projecs" heading does not show that
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tantek
s/Projecs/Projects
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: your "Projects" heading does not show that
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tantek
clearly I should get some sleep too :)
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elf-pavlik
i did work last days on adding server-sent events to PLP backend and already have https://github.com/substack/forkdb working for it
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elf-pavlik
soon i can add collections there but needed to prepare some plumbing to handle it
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elf-pavlik
tantek, have you tried *drawing* to explain rel / rev ? i think diagrams like ones i experiment with in public-vocabs can help https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/property/follows
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tantek
yes have tried drawing - does not sufficiently help
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elf-pavlik
ATM indiewebcamp.org and microformats.org look very text centric
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tantek
anyway - rev failed all on its own, despite any attempts by any of us to use it or educate people
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elf-pavlik
hmmm... have you published something about your experiences with attempts to explain rel / rev ?
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tantek
people are welcome to use it with "willful" violations, but don't expect anyone to write and use any consuming code
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tantek
elf-pavlik: ages ago I did
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tantek
don't have the pemralinks offhand
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elf-pavlik
links? :)
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tantek
general things are captured on microformats.org/wiki/rev
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tantek
and actually #microformats is better for rel / rev discussions
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tantek
rev has never been relevant to indieweb
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tantek
elf-pavlik: anyway, I'll continue to encourage you to think about use-cases rather than plumbing (rev)
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elf-pavlik
roger!
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GWG
Every time I feel I'm close to something practical, I get sidetracked into a pipe dream.
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tantek
GWG, stay on target! ;)
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elf-pavlik
goodnight #indiewebcamp
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Loqi
laila tov!
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GWG
tantek: I'm an idea person. I have a tendency to wander around
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GWG
My current project which is a combination posting UI/web actions system, has a problem I haven't figured out how to solve.
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tantek
GWG, it's ok to be an idea person, just add them when they come up to your "Itches" list
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tantek
eventually you'll start repeating yourself and just add more info to existing items
#
tantek
or you'll be inspired to prioritize them
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elf-pavlik
tantek, if you need real world request for mentor/mentee (from http://www.enspiral.com/ ) - https://github.com/hackers4peace/plp-docs/issues/12#issuecomment-78043877
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tantek
sure - you can add those too
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tantek
to that sectin
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tantek
s/sectin/section
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: to that section
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GWG
tantek: Maybe you have an idea to solve my plumbing clog?
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tantek
GWG I defer to tommorris ;)
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GWG
It's all conceptual.
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GWG
I tied pieces together, and I'm trying to figure out how to detangle them so they are interchangeable.
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GWG
So, I can either...
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tommorris
I am too drunk for conceptual plumbing.
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GWG
A. Finish something that works, but needs design improvements.
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GWG
B. Go back and fix the issues, then return to finish the posting stuff
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KartikPrabhu
HTML not allowing block inside bloxk is annoying!
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KartikPrabhu
s/bloxk/block
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: HTML not allowing block inside block is annoying!
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KartikPrabhu
making marginalia.js so much more complicated
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GWG
Looking at php-comments.
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /User:Wwelves.org_perpetual-tripper (+218) "/* Itches */ collections to group friends, events, wishes etc." (view diff)
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GWG
I think I know what I have to do.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: block inside block? yes you can div div, div blockquote div etc.
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KartikPrabhu
errr sorry I meant div inside a p
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tantek
p is not really a block
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah I mis-worded that
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: but I know what you mean
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tantek
sometimes I want to put an inline list in a paragraph (a sentence event) and can't mark it up with ul/ol because of that limitation.
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KartikPrabhu
here is an example of the issue: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia the marginalia show/hide buttons are inside the relevant <p> but the actual marginalia has to sit outside it. So I have to use Javascript to show/hide instead of some simple CSS
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KartikPrabhu
I could put the show/hide button also outside the <p> but then the marginalia looks as if it has no connection to the relevant <p>
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: wow indeed it almost forces you to make each p into a div :(
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KartikPrabhu
yes and the point is that marginalia can also be attached to any other element not just <p>s so it is more annoying
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tantek
<div class="content-block"><p>…</p>… marginalia stuff here </div>
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tantek
(just thinking out loud)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah but that won't work for any generic element since marginalia could be attached to the span as in <p> <span>Stuff with marginalia comments</span></p>
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KartikPrabhu
so it seems I have to implement some sort of artificial coarse-graining of where marginalia can be attached
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that's even better if you can make marginalia work with just spans
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KartikPrabhu
I can now. But again Javascript dependence
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tantek
can't use CSS for that?
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tantek
[x] Show Marginalia <span>...</span>
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KartikPrabhu
but the <span> might contain an <ol> of marginalia comments :(
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KartikPrabhu
so browsers won't render them inside the span
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aaronpk
browsers are that strict now?
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KartikPrabhu
at least that's what FF does
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: yeah if you want to use lists then you have to do the div thing
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KartikPrabhu
yeah :( right now marginalia.js just reuses any markup that the page laready has for its comments. So I don't want to impose some HTML markup on people who might want to use it
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KartikPrabhu
so if your original comment container was a <div> then a <div> is used for the marginalia, if it was a <ol> then <ol> is re-used
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: sounds to me like we should come up with microformats for marginalia so that the script can use that instead of depending on any specific spans or ul etc.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I think a u-in-reply-to with a fragmention solves that semantic problem. Here, it is more of a "how to best make the UI" issue
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that makes sense!
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aaronpk
arg, i can't decide if i should prioritize publishing my checkins on my site over redoing my permalink and storage structure
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aaronpk
publishing checkins before that means i have way more URLs to move later
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KartikPrabhu
also, I want the UI to work even if marginalia are moved and rendered server-side. WHich is why I want to separate the JS which moves marginalia to the correct place and only use CSS for the UI
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Loqi
gives KartikPrabhu the UI to work even if marginalia are moved and rendered server
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KartikPrabhu
:P
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tantek
aaronpk - highly recommend fixing permalink / storage structure before adding more types
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tantek
or do it as part of your checkin post work
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tantek
I fixed/improved *a ton* of storage handling when I implemented "like" posts in Falcon and am really glad I did it then as I had a fresh use-case in my head the whole time driving the cleanup of tech debt.
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aaronpk
good call. oh man. so much to do
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tantek
(one of the reasons "like" posts took me so long. the other reason was all the explicit delibreately methodological up front "open design" I did on them and captured in Brainstorming on the /like page)
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KartikPrabhu
man Medium does marginalia in such a terrible way. All marginalia sit outside the main article and then are shown/hidden by Javascript-ness
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fmarx.de
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+274) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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fmarx.de
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+38) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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fmarx.de
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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@EvilKimau
@PlayMedusa Big believer in the Indie Web Movement http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started a lot of these systems comprimise that or make it harder (twtr.io/z2aj83oM7C)
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KevinMarks
Could you use <details><summary> for marginalia? Seems semantically right
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: I am avoiding changing the markup that already exists in the page.
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KartikPrabhu
the problem is not about semantics but the fact that in HTML some elements are not allowed inside others
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kylewm
!tell tantek could you please do your invite thing for https://www.facebook.com/events/868304959882663/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
kylewm: Tantek has an invite thing?
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kylewm
GWG: yeah the thing where he invites everyone in san francisco to HWC
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GWG
kylewm: Can he invite everyone in NYC too?
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@bookprescom
Meeter Launches Smart Meeting Service on iOS, Android >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=619491&utm_content=bufferbaa5b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Brandy Shaul. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twtr.io/z2vXdYcVxL)
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ben_thatmustbeme
KartikPrabhu: can you possibly just use only spans and classes to make the same appearance as an ol? I would certainly recommend against changing existing markup as that can break styling.
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KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: marginalia.js does not change the existing markup on the page. So i don't want to force it to use span
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ben_thatmustbeme
Not what I mean. Your problem is p > span > ol can't exist correct?
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KartikPrabhu
my problem is p > ol can't exist
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KartikPrabhu
the ol is the markup on the existing page
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ben_thatmustbeme
But can you work it just as p > span.fakeol
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ben_thatmustbeme
Ohh I see hmm
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KartikPrabhu
yes but the existing page could use something that is not ol and everything breaks
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KartikPrabhu
i could tailer marginalia.js for my own site markup but that seems fragile
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ben_thatmustbeme
Huh?
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KartikPrabhu
s/tailer/tailor
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: i could tailor marginalia.js for my own site markup but that seems fragile
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ben_thatmustbeme
Could you explain " use something that is not ol and everything breaks"
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KartikPrabhu
I mean. I currently use <ol> for a list of responses. But if I make marginalia.js use that specific markup to hack around the display issues, the whole thing breaks if I decide tomorrow that my list of responses should be a div or something
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KartikPrabhu
I don't want marginalia.js to touch any of the existing markup on the page; it should only move responses around
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ben_thatmustbeme
Hmmm I'm also probably too tired to figure this out right now
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KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: no worries. I have been thinking of this for the whole weekend and can't see how to do it
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KartikPrabhu
maybe hacking around <span> is the best way as you suggest
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acegiak
morning, all
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Loqi
acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 12 hours ago: I had an idea. Need to bounce it off someone. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02/line/1430590934310
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acegiak
GWG: sorry for my absence! :P
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(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)