#indieweb

2016-07-04

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cweiske.de
edited /WordPress (-372) "/* Fatal Error memory exhausted */ not having 41mib ram is no reason to complain" (view diff)
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petermolnar
question: how many of you are filling in the h-card p-nickname to show nicks that would be useful for people-tag @mentions? eg. I know tantek is tantek.com, but right now, I can't find any automated way to query this info from tantek.com - it's either tantek.com or full name. The only place I could turn for this information is the irc-people page.
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jonnybarnes
are we not using #indieweb now?
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petermolnar
good question
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petermolnar
are we?
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KartikPrabhu
petermolnar: does everyone have to advertise a nickname? Is there a fallback you can use?
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petermolnar
of course there is a fallback: either the domain name or the full name
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petermolnar
but it would be nice to have the commonly used handle in the h-card, wouldn't it?
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KartikPrabhu
if people want to publish it, yes. if they don't then you use the fallback
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petermolnar
KartikPrabhu yes, that is trivial and is a solution. However, I was asking if anyone is actively filling it in or not, mostly to understand why it's uncommon to do so.
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KartikPrabhu
maybe because there hasn't been a use case for it. Is there a consumer/use-case for adding explicit nicknames?
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petermolnar
yes, to have @ handles for people-tagging
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Repost of Grant Potter's post on known.networkeffects.ca" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/repost-of-grant-potters-post-on-knownnetworkeffectsca-4aecfe0ae4
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Loqi
[indieweb] "Wow 20h+ of paper.li trash on the #indieweb Twitter hashtag" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/wow-20h-of-paperli-trash-on-the-indieweb-twitter-hashtag
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j4y_funabashi
petermolnar: nice idea, I might add nickname to my hcard
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Loqi
j4y_funabashi: tantek left you a message 17 hours, 58 minutes ago: re: post-type-discovery style algorithm for webmentions, same algorithm http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467568318082
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Loqi
j4y_funabashi: tantek left you a message 17 hours, 56 minutes ago: let's figure out any difference (or places that need more detail) that might exist with things like person tags or salmention. I'd prefer to incorporate those directly into post type discovery http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467568394086
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j4y_funabashi
At the moment I just enter urls for person tags
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KartikPrabhu
petermolnar: sure. But why do I need to publish a nickname so that you can use it as a @ handle?
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j4y_funabashi
But I am planning on having some sort of lookup that tries to convert the url to a human name
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petermolnar
uhm, because why not?
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petermolnar
KartikPrabhu you don't; no one has to. You are one of the few who is using their full name as handle here and there; others don't
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j4y_funabashi
petermolnar: do you fallback to name before url?
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petermolnar
eg. GWG, tantek, aaronpk; their domains, names, and handles are 3 different thing
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petermolnar
and the handle is not usually published
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KartikPrabhu
so are mine, if you count capitalisation and underscores
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KartikPrabhu
i am assuming handles means Twitter
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petermolnar
j4y_funabashi I've had an initial run at people-tags, but that way pulling and parsing irc-people, which is cheating; this is a second attempt and nothing is decided yet
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petermolnar
probably name before url, yes
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petermolnar
'handle' in this context means an announced nick they'd preferred to be referred in a reply/post/mention
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petermolnar
there are cases when the tld-less domain name is a good fallback as well, but not always
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petermolnar
especially not if it's a domain hack
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j4y_funabashi
I was thinking that I could use my phone contacts as a way to resolve names too, most of my friends that I would person tag are on Facebook so I can't really fetch their hcard
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KartikPrabhu
petermolnar: right, that is what I mean. people can publish nicknames if they want to but they should not have to
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petermolnar
no, of course not. but right now nearly no one does it and I would like to know why; is it something people forgot, never thought of, don't want, etc?
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KartikPrabhu
maybe because they've never had to
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petermolnar
so never thought of :)
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KartikPrabhu
more like "never needed"
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j4y_funabashi
I didn't because indiewebify didn't tell me to :)
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j4y_funabashi
!tell tantek cool, I am just implementing the notification text an realising that mention posts have 2 types, the post type is based on h-entry properties but the mention type needs other information
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
Morning
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petermolnar
morning
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GWG
petermolnar, anything new?
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petermolnar
nothing indieweb related
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petermolnar
nothing directly indieweb related
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petermolnar
lot of work on parsing content, auto-exporting things in plaintext for archiving purposes, lots of automation which fills things in instead of me (because I tend to forget to do so), but these are just itches and scratches and only for me :)
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GWG
I want to automate things so I don't have to do them too.
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petermolnar
usually it also helps you learn regexes :)
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GWG
I stink at regexes
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petermolnar
https://regex101.com/ - this thing is invaluable
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GWG
My goal today is to finish the Micropub changes I want today, get it merged, update Post Kinds to match, and use Micropub to post notes and such.
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GWG
I want to be able to use Mobilepub
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@sl007
@glennjones Any news about September #indiewebcamp in beautiful Brighton ;) ? (twtr.io/1ERDv7v1szj)
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aaronpk
GOOD MORNING!
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aaronpk
I am back
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jonnybarnes
morning
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jonnybarnes
i got quill working with my micropub endpoint, including syndication :D!!!
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aaronpk
ooh nice!
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jonnybarnes
thankfully quill still sends form-encoded requests to a micropub endpoint, so I’ve only needed to update the responses of my endpoint to use JSON
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aaronpk
yep. i still think form-encoded requests are much easier to handle.
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aaronpk
at least for the simple requests like creating posts
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aaronparecki.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+443) "etherpad!" (view diff)
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aaronpk
Today is the day to launch the rename!
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jonnybarnes
does that maen changing irc channels as well?
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aaronpk
yep!
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aaronpk
I still have some work to prepare Loqi for the channel move
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Loqi
yo
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aaronpk
I'm going to make an etherpad doc showing my todo list and will check things off there as I go
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jonnybarnes
what is etherpad
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Loqi
Etherpad is an open source realtime collaborative document editing tool that the IndieWebCamp community often uses to take notes during IndieWebCamps at http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/ https://indiewebcamp.com/Etherpad
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aaronpk
http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
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jonnybarnes
do “we” own indieweb.org?
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aaronpk
yes
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jonnybarnes
will my etherpad instance open in my browser auto-update as you add things?
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aaronpk
yep
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aaronpk
you should see a full sentence now. i was typing it as you loaded it
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Loqi
+1
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jonnybarnes
etherpad++
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Loqi
etherpad has 2 karma
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[tantek]
Yay aaronpk!!!
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Loqi
[tantek]: gRegorLove left you a message 12 hours, 14 minutes ago: photosrcalt template looks OK in general, though requires the full URL of the image, which in the HWC you edited is only found by first using the [[File]] MediaWiki syntax. Using the exact URL loses the ability to easily re-size like the [[File]] format, too. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467605279858
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Loqi
[tantek]: gRegorLove left you a message 12 hours, 14 minutes ago: A nice improvement would be if it accepted just the File:filename.jpg format and expanded the full image URL, and also accepted fully URL's for off-site images. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-03/line/1467605315106
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Loqi
[tantek]: j4y_funabashi left you a message 4 hours, 13 minutes ago: cool, I am just implementing the notification text an realising that mention posts have 2 types, the post type is based on h-entry properties but the mention type needs other information http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-04/line/1467634180664
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Loqi
yay!
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[tantek]
En route now but will be in front of a laptop soon to help with QA etc :)
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aaronpk
great!
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[tantek]
!tell gregorlove I have no idea how to auto-extract the actual jpg url from the fake file: media wiki .jpg up that is not actually a jpg :P
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek]
Aaronpk, check /indieweb.org - I tried to write up / separate more of the "current state" vs today's changes vs later maybe steps vs brainstorming
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[tantek]
Still needs some more cleaning up but should be good enough to make today happen
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aaronpk
okay. i thought that whole page was for after today. i was only working off of the rename to indieweb.org page today.
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aaronpk
[tantek]: you said you were going to rewrite these "general issues" to be phrased in the positive, so that people can look at them and know what to do, rather than what not to do. http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org#General_Issues
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[tantek]
Yes you're correct on both counts
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[tantek]
I updated the /indieweb.org page because we have an expectation of the wiki always reflecting current state vs proposals vs brainstorms and we needed that there.
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[tantek]
Also the general issues need to be split out per proposal, in addition to the list of actual current issues being split out from under any specific proposal
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[tantek]
Btw where are we capturing potential new channels (beyond today, i.e. channels we decided we could postpone eg indieweb-wordpress)?
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aaronpk
hmm we don't have a spot yet. it's only been mentioned on https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders so far i think
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aaronpk
we should probably reorganize some of the wiki pages around IRC/chat after today, and then they can go there
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tantek.com
edited /WordPress (+372) "Undo revision 29256 by [[Special:Contributions/Cweiske.de|Cweiske.de]] ([[User talk:Cweiske.de|talk]]), worth keeping actual error seen in the wild as a known issue until evidence presented that it's been fixed in an update, actual fail 32 bytes" (view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk, I'm of the thinking that it's good to decouple (re-)organization and capturing
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aaronpk
sure
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tantek
so, yes to some re-organizing after of /IRC and /chat after today
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tantek
to be clear
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tantek
I would totally put my Freenode IRC nickname as a rel-me on my home page if IRC had a *working* way to link to a nickname
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tantek
really surprised no one has fixed that yet
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tantek
I'm tempted to just write up a proposal and then submit a patch to Colloquy
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tantek
ooh etherpad - good catch
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voxpelli
tantek: this doesn't work? ircs://irc.freenode.net:6697/voxpelli (I honestly don't know, but it would open a private message to that user, which is kind of like linking to it)
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tantek
no that opens the channel # voxpelli
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tantek
(that's what IRC clients have implemented)
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aaronpk
lol oh yeah
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voxpelli
oh, my tiral and error skills failed majorly :/
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aaronpk
i remember this discussion
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tantek
where's that new IRC effort again?
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+414) "we don't need name for offtopic channel for today (since not being logged), opinions on etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronpk
new IRC effort?
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aaronpk
http://ircv3.net/ ?
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tantek
yeah
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tantek
wondering if they'll solve this or have a solution yet
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tantek
or if they'll get suckered into jumping off the identity deepend
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aaronpk
so far it looks like the only identity thing they've done is SASL
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aaronpk
http://ircv3.net/irc/
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aaronpk
did we decide where to move the various Loqi notifications?
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aaronpk
ah kind of http://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders#Task_List
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aaronpk
spec tweets move to #indieweb-dev
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aaronpk
and wiki edits
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tantek
what was the reasoning behind wiki edits?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "reasoning behind wiki edits" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PE
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aaronpk
too noisy i think
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tantek
lol (smh)
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leg
I wonder how relevant http://about.psyc.eu/ is in real live. Seems more "Indie" then irc
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aaronpk
wow haven't heard of that one before. sounds kind of similar to matrix.org which actually has some indieweb participation
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aaronpk
nice: "Discussion Forum: Doesn't happen by e-mail. It is taking place in the chatrooms and within this Wiki."
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tantek
we have an FAQ like that :)
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aaronpk
most of their wiki links are broken though. it looks like a very dead project.
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tantek
huh
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tantek
yeah I'm wondering what a good measure for "abandoned" is
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tantek
maybe 2+ years of no changes?
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aaronpk
the OAuth wiki hasn't been updated in 2+ years :/
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tantek
for open source: 2+ years of no changes in primary repo, and selfdogfood abandonment :)
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tantek
there's an OAuth wiki?
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aaronpk
but the website continues to be edited via github pull requests sent to me
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aaronpk
http://wiki.oauth.net (actually a pbworks site)
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tantek
shudders
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tantek
pbworks is some serious silo export debt :/
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tantek
(I have too many pbworks :( )
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aaronpk
as far as i can tell everyone has forgotten about it and can't even get me an admin login for it
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tantek
hmm
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tantek
looks like Storytlr is abandoned. no changes since 2014-04. and primary dev eschnou switched his site from Storytlr to hosted about.me (sigh)
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tantek
sigh: https://t37.net/migrating-a-non-wordpress-blog-to-medium-for-the-nerdiest.html
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Loqi
[Frédéric de Villamil] Migrating a non Wordpress blog to Medium for the nerdiest
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tantek
if leaving a silo (to go / prefer indieweb) is a /silo-quit - what do we call it when someone migrates their primary identity to a silo (with URLs, or even just hosting like about.me)
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tantek
?
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aaronpk
indieweb-quit?
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aaronpk
or just indie-quit?
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tantek
or /silo-submission ?
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aaronpk
lol
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tantek
what is the opposite of independence?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "opposite of independence" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PF
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aaronpk
dependence
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tantek
a-ha /silo-dependence
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tantek
or even /silo-dependents if we're listing individual instances there of
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+642) "move Social Igniter and StoryTlr to abandoned, delink URLs, note Publify no longer in active use by previous users" (view diff)
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petermolnar
"The silo dependent me" ah, that would be a nice title on Medium, wouldn't it? /s
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tantek
so much cleanup to do on /projects
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tantek
well incremental is better than nothing
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tantek.com
edited /Publify (+263) "/* IndieWeb Users */ all past" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Storytlr (+78) "fix link, note IndieWeb Examples are now past" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /IRC (+665) "channels coming soon (#indieweb, #indieweb-dev), and under consideration (#indieweb-wordpress, #indieweb-meta)" (view diff)
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tantek_
aaronpk, ok I captured #indieweb-wordpress on /IRC accordingly
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tantek_
also the past week or so of so much "meta" discussion in the main channel has been (somewhat / sometimes) counterproductive to actual indieweb make your site better discussion
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tantek_
so I suggested #indieweb-meta as a possibility to try to shunt that sort of thing
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tantek_
(like -wordpress, only if it seems like it's needed beyond this recent spike in meta-chatter)
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tantek.com
edited /indiechat (+14) "linky IRC" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /discuss (+722) "let's get this started" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /discuss (+73) "/* Chat */ actual clickable IRC links" (view diff)
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tantek
ok, /discuss stub is live and already linked from the sidebar
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tantek.com
edited /discuss (+90) "/* Email */ also discourage repetition of arguments" (view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek++ yay new /discuss page!
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Loqi
tantek has 298 karma
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tantek.com
edited /discuss (+89) "Web UI link duh - even if just to current UI until we have new links. decouple all the things! o/" (view diff)
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tantek
I'd like to see more participation in the rename to indieweb effort (or at least opinions!) from those of you who are more active here, especially in other timezones (since it's still "early" in Pacific time)
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aaronpk
totally
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bear
what areas need review/discussion?
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tantek
petermolnar, that means you :)
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aaronpk
the main thing that's going to block me as soon as i'm done with this code is where to launch the chat logs
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tantek
yep, on it
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aaronpk
also just a reminder, i'm updating progress here http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-417) "/* chat subdomain */ updated opinion per kevinmarks argument, dropped other counter-arguments" (view diff)
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tantek
bear - everything that (1) lacks consensus, and (2) is a blocker for today
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bear
on the rename wiki page?
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tantek
yes
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bear
opens
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tantek
I can start separating the things that appear to be actual blockers
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tantek
from the aspirational brainstormy things
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aaronpk
consensus meaning anything from -0 to +1?
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tantek
aaronpk: yeah I think that's reasonable
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tantek
though even in the -0 I'd like to understand why
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tantek
rather than just "outvote"
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bear
if we bubble up the ones that are actionable it could help gather opinions
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tantek
is not a fan of "outvoting" as a method for community positive conflict resolution
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tantek
bear, right
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aaronpk
-0 is meant to indicate non-blocking disapproval so that makes sense
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voxpelli
tantek: any participation needed even if one has been pretty absent throughout the entire discussion so far? (sorry for that btw)
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tantek
voxpelli: yes
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voxpelli
sees answer to bear and follows the path there
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bear
has added his votes to the remainder of the items
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voxpelli
ok, somewhat unsure where my contributions are needed apart from generally voting on the brainstorm section of the indieweb renaming wiki
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voxpelli
needed/helpful
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tantek
takes a look
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tantek
ok aaronpk, I'm going to separate (on the wiki) specifically the things you have indicated as part of your to do list
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aaronpk
great
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tantek
basically as the primary implementer of this change, I'm assuming you're not putting it in the etherpad unless you have to make a decision one way or another *today*
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aaronpk
oh I didn't include anything about the newsletter because nothing is changing
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tantek
as opposed to the highly-related but more nice-to-have-maybe things
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aaronpk
i mean "just keep this-week subdirectory" has +1s and one 0, so easiest option right now is to not do anything
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tantek
yep
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aaronpk
it'll come along for the ride for the most part
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tantek
I'm a big fan of "easiest option right now is to not do anything"
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aaronpk
me too especialyl cause it's already noon
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tantek
yep, I'm going to be harsh with cuts accordingly
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tantek
e.g. no need for any decisions on non-logged channel(s)
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aaronpk
makes sense
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voxpelli
tantek: I found how you can link to an IRC user at least: ircs://irc.freenode.net:6697/voxpelli,isuser ;) Spec: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-butcher-irc-url-04#section-2.5.2
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jkphl.is
edited /events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* Nürnberg */" (view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli: now find me even one IRC client that supports ,isuser
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tantek
nevermind how bad a URL design that is
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voxpelli
tantek: IRCCloud does
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tantek
whoa cool
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jkphl
hi indieweb!
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voxpelli
and IRCCloud are the chairs of IRCv3 :)
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+512) "additional required details per aaronpk (primary rename implementer) notes in etherpad" (view diff)
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tantek
ok trying to do these edits at least semi-atomically
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aaronpk
another question, do I bother importing logs from the current #indieweb-dev channel? or start logging today?
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tantek
I'd say start today better reflects expectations
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bear
start today IMO
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tantek
is there anything of consequence from #indieweb-dev previously?
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aaronpk
it's already gotten some use
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aaronpk
easier is to not import tho
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bear
I would suggest that if there are then people can cross post
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-22) "/* where to put IRC logs */ note chat.indieweb.org has consensus (no -1/-0 opinions left) over /chat subdirectory)" (view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli: want to double-check this to see if you (as a new reviewer) see anything anyone else missed? https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#chat_subdomain (verify reasoning etc.)
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tantek
aaronpk: huh, just realizing date-primary vs channel-primary was never discussed and historically a lot of us prefer (per /URL_design) date-primary
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voxpelli
tantek: that was the only thing I noticed as well – that /dev/2016-01-01 and /2016-01-01 are at different levels in the hierarchy – but can see no discussion of that
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tantek
ugh yeah
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voxpelli
I'm overall +1 on it all though, I won't run in and add new ideas this late :)
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aaronpk
interesting point
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voxpelli
but a /main/2016-01-01 would have looked better to me so that they are all at the same level – that would enable an archive of all channels (overview style) at a higher hierarchical level for example
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aaronpk
i guess my instinct was that the channel was higher level in the hierarchy of information
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aaronpk
so if you remove path segments from the right, each path makes sense
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bear
that ^^
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aaronpk
whereas it's not obvious what should be at just a date url that represents multiple channels
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bear
going from specific to general you lose information with date first
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voxpelli
but /dev discussions are never part of "/main" discussions which I would expect when moving one step higher in the hierarchy, but too late for that feedback now :)
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+369) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ note issues, date-primary or not" (view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk, "it's not obvious what should be at just a date url" - already says in the existing proposal on the wiki - just the main channel
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tantek
"if you remove path segments from the right, each path makes sense" <-- is true in either case
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aaronpk
then that makes me super not want to use date-primary urls
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tantek
huh?
#
tantek
voxpelli: not too late because we haven't figured it out!
#
tantek
aaronpk is there some storage / generation issue?
#
bear
wait - why is this an item for discussion - the descriptive text below "short scheme" has a concrete example
#
aaronpk
this is adding a new option to the pool that was not yet considered
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tantek
bear - because every other instance of stuff we've done (including /URL_design ) has date first
#
aaronpk
but the previous options had concrete examples
#
bear
it says "Sub channel logs: {base}/dev and {base}/dev/2016-07-04" which is what we voted for
#
tantek
bear - not necessarily. people only saw two options, so voted one over the other
#
tantek
short vs long scheme
#
tantek
that's the only thing you can really claim people "voted" on
#
bear
no, the short scheme included an example which says what the short scheme was
#
tantek
so clearly people want a short(er) scheme
#
tantek
over a longer scheme
#
bear
I disagree
#
bear
the example is clearly associated with "short scheme"
#
tantek
bear, from a spec reading perspective, I see examples as non-normative, as one *possible* example
#
@voxpelli
@IRCCloud We discussed it within the @indiewebcamp as a way to link your web profile to your IRC-profile through http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-me (twtr.io/1ER_VFJQJCG)
#
bear
adding the issue is, IMO, rewriting the vote
#
tantek
bear - or pointing out that the vote only established one detail, not two
#
bear
I don't follow that at all
#
tantek
besides, there's a very small number of votes on that particular detail
#
tantek
compared to others
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+518) "/* URL paths of chat logs */" (view diff)
#
bear
orthagonal to the discussion
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bear
the number of votes does not remove the fact that the item *had* an clear example of the url pattern
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tantek
bear - it means not many people were paying attention
#
tantek
which is usually not a good sign
#
tantek
and means more input needed
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#
tantek
perhaps because of ambiguity
#
bear
again, not a clear reason to insert an issue about url pattern
#
tantek
bear, I've seen far too many examples here (and on the wiki) of people *not* reading (and thus having to have to be pointed out) details like that
#
tantek
just happened the other day in IRC
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bear
you can say because you think people were not paying attention is a reason to reframe the question, but that doesn't mean that the people who voted should have thieir votes changed indirectly
#
tantek
so I reject your assumption that a vote means a vote for *all* details (as opposed to voting a vs. b overall when there are two choices)
#
tantek
bear - that's why I added the issue *after* the existing votes
#
tantek
since there's no way to tell what each person "meant" by their vote
#
tantek
you're assuming all details. I'm saying you can't assume all details.
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bear
I'm too tired with life in general right now to get into pendantic reasons why votes don't count or not or to have other people tell me my thoughts are assumptions *and* that they are wrong
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aaronpk
i don't think adding the issue like tantek did is implying old votes are invalid
#
aaronpk
or changed
#
aaronpk
wow so a test run of importing my logs from the database to files finished in about 2 minutes
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+135) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ make explicit what each path does" (view diff)
#
GWG
Afternoon
#
voxpelli
aaronpk: removing dates from channel primary -> latest archived data, removing channel from date primary -> links to the archive of that day for all channels?
#
bear
sorry, to me it seemed to be one of the few things that was clearly laid out and decided - so adding all of this now just seems like churn
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aaronpk
voxpelli: i noted that in my wiki edit. however it doesn't reflect any usage of chat that I know of.
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GWG
I was just stuck in a car for a bit, and I had this idea I need some help with
#
GWG
I was thinking about a Webmention comment I got a while back from someone who said they cared about Webmentions as a stat, not a display item
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aaronpk
bear: i agree, date-first seemed like it didn't make enough sense to add as an option to vote on in the first place
#
aaronpk
also frankly if we had to all express our opinions on each detail of the code i'm writing i would never finish it
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+275) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ alternative more confusing" (view diff)
#
GWG
I am thinking of adding a better Webmention display to the WordPress dashboard
#
tantek
aaronpk - your question just points out that the votes *did* have assumptions that you were not assuming!
#
tantek
because from the "short scheme" text:
#
tantek
"Main channel logs: {base}/ and {base}/2016-07-04 "
#
tantek
and you specifically asked "it's not obvious what should be at just a date url"
#
tantek
what's more confusing about that is that shouldn't {base}/ be the "chat application home page" ?
#
tantek
which says all sorts of things about joining, different channels, different networks etc. etc.?
#
tantek
this is why this "vote" didn't make sense
#
aaronpk
that sounds like new content
#
aaronpk
there is no home page on the current chat logs, there's just logs
#
tantek
aaronpk: but the whole argument about using a subdomain was "this is a chat app!"
#
tantek
I was told there would be a chat app :P ;)
#
tantek
continues to be skeptical about any/all subdomain proposals
#
aaronpk
omg we're going in circles
#
aaronpk
i'm just going to do a thing
#
kodfabrik.se
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+480) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */" (view diff)
#
bear
not that prior art should be taken as a given... but in my experience consuming chat logs over the decades, it's always been service/channel/date
#
tantek
nope, prior art is good data
#
bear
if for any better reason than it makes walking thru a backlog of chat easier because you only have to change the last bit of the url to go forward/backwards a day
#
tantek
interesting, perhaps that's how we scale to other non-indieweb channels (#microformats) and non-freenode service (irc.w3.org)
#
tantek
bear++ for making good arguments
#
Loqi
bear has 148 karma
#
tantek
dang it bear, there you go architecting in a sensible manner ;)
#
bear
your rubbing off on me sir
#
voxpelli
I'm more on about the thing of /dev vs / vs /main, bear makes a good argument for the date
#
tantek
re: other logs and service/channel/date. two examples I see match that: krijn's logs were at e.g. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20160201 and csswg logs were at https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2016-02-01/
#
kodfabrik.se
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-45) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ fix my example that got weird due to switch from date primary to channel primary" (view diff)
#
bear
another example of what i'm trying to describe -- https://botbot.me/freenode/hangops/2016-07-01/?tz=America/Havana
#
tantek
and glob logs are a query string mess :( http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=29+Jun+2016&e=29+Jun+2016
#
bear
yuck, that's a good negative example
#
tantek
(though roughly network%23channel and then date
#
tantek
)
#
aaronpk
start and end dates?
#
tantek
so the information hierarchy is the same even if the syntax is a mess
#
tantek
yeah
#
tantek
not advocating, just providing more data
#
tantek
this is what scientists do - when they disagree, they go get more data to help inform the discussion
#
bear
negative examples are very important to a balanced discussion
#
tantek
as opposed to politicians / philosophers who just make up more ornate / rhetorical arguments :P
#
tantek
(or repeat themselves :P)
#
aaronpk
unrelated, i'm documenting the nginx config and adding comments which use # in nginx, and realizing that using more # makes the headers stand out more, which is the opposite of markdown
#
petermolnar
tantek sorry for not being active enough on the rename, though I agree with it, except I'd like to see as few channels as possible ( I have tonnes of windows open already due to work, so less the channels, less of the chance of forgetting checking one)
#
petermolnar
if I can help with the move though, I'm happy to lend a hand
#
tantek
petermolnar: agreed, there's definitely rough consensus on fewer channels by default, thus only "more" channels when the pain of "too much cross-talk" or "too unfriendly to new folks/generations" is greater than the pain of "one more channel"
#
tantek
aaronpk the CSSWG wiki uses more # for greater header, like hey start with ###### for an h1 (!!!)
#
tantek
has to deal with at least three wiki syntaxes in his "work" and is not happy about it
#
jkphl.is
created /2017/Nuremberg (+4806) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name summary">IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017</span> = The '''second IndieWebCamp in Nuremberg''', but just one of many [[IndieWebCamps]]! <div class="p-descriptio..."" (view diff)
#
tantek
wow
#
tantek
now that's planning ahead
#
tantek
what is 2017?
#
jkphl
;)
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "2017" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10PG
#
aaronpk
awesome!
#
@voxpelli
@IRCCloud I see, nice! To work with parseable rel-me links it has be included directly in the source though to fit well with @indiewebcamp (twtr.io/1ERbmY6BQWw)
#
tantek
hahaha jkphl FTW!
#
tantek
jkphl++
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Loqi
jkphl has 15 karma
#
petermolnar
German engineering :D
#
tantek
s/engineering/over-engineering :D
#
GWG
tantek, I need to track down my co-organizer
#
jkphl
now that the date for the nuremberg web week 2017 is (almost) nailed down ... looks like there will be a double feature: IWC Düsseldorf and Nuremberg just one week apart from each other. hope this works out well ...
#
aaronpk
the new chat logs will be ssl-only!
#
voxpelli
tantek: found any example that has both channel and channel-less archives? in regards to /dev vs plain / for main
#
tantek
lol google translate says "über engineering"
#
tantek
voxpelli: no
#
tantek
hmm - finding it hard to argue with the familiarity of existing archive URLs
#
tantek
and bear's arguments are compelling
#
aaronpk
another example, slack URLs are {subdomain}.slack.com/archives/{channel}/p{timestamp}
#
tantek
oh that's a thought
#
tantek
explicit /archive/ or /log/ at the start of the path
#
tantek
thus we can still get the glorious promise chat app at the /
#
voxpelli
For consistency I'm just leaning towards having "/" be "/main" for the main channel, to match "/dev" and all these other examples
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voxpelli
for the archives at least
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bear
IMO it would be confusing for IRC folks if the "main" channel was not listed as /indieweb/
#
aaronpk
for anyone curious, i've added the nginx config for what we're talking about to http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb.org
#
jkphl.is
edited /Events (+518) "/* May */" (view diff)
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tantek
bear or chat.indieweb.org/log ?
#
tantek
or chat.indieweb.org/archive ?
#
tantek
tends to prefer singular
#
voxpelli
eg. chat.indieweb.org/log/main and chat.indieweb.org/log/dev vs chat.indieweb.org/log and chat.indieweb.org/log/dev
#
bear
archive reads better for singular
#
petermolnar
will be back ~15-20 mins
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+867) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ Issue: Explicit "log" or "archive(s)" in path, and changed opinion about date-primary vs channel-primary" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
tantek: your -1 for not using the root for the main channel isn't actually mutually explicit with using it as an overview page
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aaronpk
s/explicit/exclusive
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: tantek: your -1 for not using the root for the main channel isn't actually mutually exclusive with using it as an overview page
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+80) "/* URL paths of chat logs */ more sub-issues for details" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
note that currently there is no content served from date-less URLs
#
jkphl.is
created /2017/Nuremberg/Guest_List (+4833) "Created page with "__TOC__ <div class="h-event vevent"> == [[2017/Nuremberg|IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017]] == * '''When:''' <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2017-05-20</time> <time..."" (view diff)
#
tantek
ok subhead provided https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#explicit_log_or_archive_in_path
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aaronpk
i am planning on redirecting / to /today and /dev to /dev/today for now
#
tantek
aaronpk makes sense
#
aaronpk
later we can add an overview page at /
#
tantek
aaronpk thoughts on /log or /archive ?
#
tantek
looking at the other chat log examples made me think of that
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aaronpk
i'm on the fence about it still
#
tantek
sounds like a solid "0" ;)
#
aaronpk
it doesn't seem necessary since everything on chat.indieweb.org is logs
#
tantek
it does read nicer out of context
#
tantek
the URLs that is
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bear
for me /log | /archive is nice because it allows for / | /dev to be landing pages for a channel - rules, faq, web interface
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aaronpk
so far we've avoided the need for that by just dropping you right into the chat logs which is the same place you go to join the channel, which i kind of like
#
tantek
even if for now /dev redirects to /log/dev/today
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voxpelli
and we should not have a landing page for chat in general at / where we can eg. link to Slack signup, channel overview etc?
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bear
does the chat logs allow for non-js retrieval
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tantek
voxpelli I think you meant "and should we not"
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voxpelli
even if / just says "Chat stuff -> see more at wiki page"
#
aaronpk
when the page first loads, all content is in the HTML
#
aaronpk
JS brings in new content in realtime
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tantek
yep
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voxpelli
tantek: sort of, yeah :P
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bear
hmm, then i'm also becoming a +0 for log|archive
#
tantek
does it mean log|archive is just a holdover from static non-interactive logs?
#
bear
yea, that's why i'm changing my thoughts
#
tantek
informeddiscussion++
#
Loqi
informeddiscussion has 1 karma
#
bear
with the js adding value for humans (and not being known at all for computers) then it's old form
#
bear
and that also lets /today | /dev/today become a good landing spot with sidebar info on how to get past dates
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tantek
presumably any /YYYY-MM-DD can have an sidebar nav
#
tantek
s/an sidebar/an archive sidebar
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: presumably any /YYYY-MM-DD can have an archive sidebar nav
#
aaronpk
wait what sidebar
#
bear
sorry - i'm using "sidebar" to mean "additional links or pointers on how to navigate forward/backwards thru time"
#
tantek
oops sorry aaronpk
#
tantek
that was an aspirational slip
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bear
not a specific visual design thing
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tantek
btw: https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#just_re-use_existing_Slack_page if you're a fan of less work
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tantek
I don't see a concrete use-case need for chat.indieweb.org/slack :P
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aaronpk
heh well that one is just one file that's easy to drop in to chat.indieweb.org anyway
#
tantek
the root of slack.indiewebcamp ?
#
aaronpk
yea
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tantek
yeah hence I'm +0 on that option
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bear
aaronpk are you using php-fpm on the server ?
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aaronpk
yes
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tantek
alright, going to start clustering some more consensus items
#
tantek
this-week and etherpad
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bear
k, do you proxy-pass to index.php or just let nginx decide
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kodfabrik.se
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+50) "/* short scheme (imply "indieweb") */ splitting out my issue and a standalone one" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
looks like it's fastcgi_pass php-pool;
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[kevinmarks]
This is reminding me of the dwebsummit comment "I don't see why this is so hard, it's just caching and naming things"
#
aaronpk
where php-pool is an upstream pointing to the fpm socket
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bear
ah - I was curious why you had "index index.php" then as a global item
#
bear
but that's not something to talk about now - I can take a look at the final nginx after it's up and running
#
bear
(when hopefully you can put my ssh key on the server, hint hint nudge nudge wink wink)
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+353) "move a few items with consensus to the top" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+238) "/* Additional Consensus Details */ please check if you object at all (with new data)" (view diff)
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aaronpk
*whew* okay i'm becoming reasonably confident that my new chat logs are showing up right for the date permalinks
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+159) "/* Additional Required Details */ ACTION new opinions with data please!" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
now with avatar proxy URLs and proper timezone support
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bear
\o/
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+201) "/* main channel at root or not */ prefer no explicit "main"" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+22) "/* main channel at root or not */" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+158) "/* main channel at root or not */ note that chat URLs already have "chat" and "indieweb" in them so they don't need another designation" (view diff)
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tantek
kevinmarks, aside from dwebsummit analogies, could you add your opinons to the sub-issues here? https://indiewebcamp.com/rename_to_IndieWeb#URL_paths_of_chat_logs
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aaronparecki.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (+0) "/* chat subdomain */" (view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk, one nicety of having explicit /dev vs /log URLs is that the /dev URL can start with an immediate prompt for user name
#
tantek
instead of having a "join" button that you have to click first to get a text area
#
tantek
it's like what's the verb of the URL. chat.indieweb.org/dev says to me start chatting in indieweb-dev
#
tantek
whereas chat.indieweb.org/log/dev or /dev/log says to me show me the log for today
#
tantek
does that difference in intent make sense? think about it from a sharing the URL (and linking to it) perspective
#
aaronpk
kind of
#
tantek
the fewer clicks for people to be able to join the discussion is good
#
tantek
similarly, I'd like to be able to share the current logs with someone without them getting prompted to join
#
tantek
I feel like I've experienced both use-cases distinctly
#
@jkphl
Delighted to announce that there'll be a 2nd @indiewebcamp in Nuremberg on May 20-21, 2017, again as part of #nueww https://indiewebcamp.com/2017/Nuremberg (twtr.io/1ERgY45_9vD)
#
@IndieWebCampDE
Yay! Der Termin für's 2. @indiewebcamp Nürnberg steht: Wieder im Rahmen der #nueww vom 20.-21. Mai 2017 https://indiewebcamp.com/2017/Nuremberg (twtr.io/1ERgfRtHRYp)
#
aaronpk
are the google search results so bad that it's worth removing the search form from the header? or still worth having it?
#
tantek
aaronpk, have you tried Yahoo-oooOOOO-oooo?
#
tantek
(#sorrynotsorry 😂)
#
tantek
aaronpk to start with there will likely be no search indexing of the new domain's chat logs, just saying it takes them a while to crawl
#
tantek
so I think that means you can leave out any 3rd party search box
#
tantek
then we can have a search-off later
#
tantek
to see who has crawled it better sooner faster stronger
#
tantek
google vs bing vs ???
#
GWG
s
#
aaronpk
anyone want to help me with some string encoding issues?
#
aaronpk
(the correct answer is no)
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[kevinmarks]
I can look at them
#
[kevinmarks]
I just found a spiderpig anomaly
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aaronpk
there is an emdash here http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-06-23/line/1466670240116
#
Loqi
[voxpelli] @pgeuder Inclusion is important and it's something that's actively thought about – see eg. http://indiewebcamp.com/generations /cc @brokep
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aaronpk
when I imported it to my text file, it came through as \u00e2\u20ac\u201c
#
aaronpk
now when i'm outputting that in the HTML, it's showing up as –
#
aaronpk
where's the source of the problem?
#
tantek
dang no wikipedia article on –
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aaronpk
and i'm sending the utf-8 content type header already
#
tantek
sounds like the "imported to text file" step corrupted it
#
aaronpk
checks if it's stored correctly in the database
#
[kevinmarks]
Looks like a u+2013 to me should be E2 80 93 in utf8
#
aaronpk
ah that might be where the problem is. i imported it from a *copy* of the database that might have it wrong
#
tantek
mysql?
#
aaronpk
yeah
#
tantek
yeah...
#
aaronpk
oh jeez. i think it's always been wrong in the DB
#
aaronpk
even though this table is set to utf8mb4
#
[kevinmarks]
So how does it show right on the web?
#
aaronpk
it's passing the chars through without trying to interpret them?
#
aaronpk
💩
#
aaronpk
yeah that's stored as "💩"
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aaronpk
great
#
aaronpk
i will be very happy to get ridof this database today
#
tantek
ok I think this deserves its own heading
#
aaronpk
so uh, I need to "convert" these back to utf8 when i write the text file
#
tantek
how about UTF-8-my-charset ?
#
tantek
too punny?
#
[kevinmarks]
However you're writing them to the server now is working
#
aaronpk
it's "working" by coincidence
#
aaronpk
theyre stored wrong in the database
#
[kevinmarks]
I just found that blogs.com stores images without extensions, so spiderpig turns them into directories with index.html in
#
[kevinmarks]
Also in a directory called ".a" so this is not obvious
#
[kevinmarks]
They're stored wrong in the db, but it converts them to something right when serving but not dumping?
#
[kevinmarks]
MySQL--
#
Loqi
MySQL has -4 karma
#
tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+415) "move UTF-8 problems to their own heading" (view diff)
#
tantek
kevinmarks, feel free to expand on https://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Breaks_UTF-8_by_default
#
tantek
MySQL--
#
Loqi
MySQL has -5 karma
#
tantek
LOL: http://markmcb.com/2011/11/07/replacing-ae%e2%80%9c-ae%e2%84%a2-aeoe-etc-with-utf-8-characters-in-ruby-on-rails/
#
tantek
not sure if this helps or not: https://www.stephen-scotter.net/computers/web-development/wordpress/ae-characters-or-similar-on-your-wordpress-site
#
tantek
I think I'm going to add some Wikipedia redirects and see what happens
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aaronpk
gawd
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aaronpk
there has to be a solution other than replacing individual occurrences of strings
#
aaronpk
this might be a dealbreaker for me right now, and i can just fall back to using the existing logging system for now
#
bear
punt on it for now - once they are flatfiles we can fix them as needed
#
aaronpk
i don't want to switch to flat-file logging in this state
#
bear
the error is only happening on converted item? so that can be fixed post launch IMO
#
bear
if anything add a log item if possible showing the file + line of the output to allow for faster finds
#
[kevinmarks]
You don't want to replace individual occurrences
#
[kevinmarks]
But the current log generation is doing the right thing
#
[kevinmarks]
So somehow MySQL is being told to behave correctly in that path
#
aaronpk
they're definitely stored wrong in mysql right now
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bear
could it be that the library your using to write/read from mysql is both causing the issue on write but also reversing the mistake on read?
#
aaronpk
they're totally unrelated pieces of code
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aaronpk
on totally different versions of PHP even
#
bear
k (trying to get more context to hopefully suggest better solutions than grep + sed)
#
tantek
I have a feeling PHP may be doing magic fixup
#
tantek
on output
#
aaronpk
this *almost* worked https://github.com/neitanod/forceutf8
#
aaronpk
i think what's happening is there is *no* fixup being done, so by the time it reaches the browser it's the correct bytes because nothing was changed.
#
aaronpk
but anything that tries to be smart about what encoding the string is gets it wrong
#
aaronpk
that library fixed a bunch of accented chars, but missed ellipses
#
aaronpk
argh it missed curly quotes too
#
tantek
and the poomoji?
#
bear
seeing the number of items that have been crossed off and the fact that the old log viewing is working... maybe punt till later?
#
aaronpk
it's not quite that simple but i might be able to cut off some of the work
#
tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+179) "/* Breaks UTF-8 by default */ our very own IRC logs. like: – … “” ‘’" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /rename_to_IndieWeb (-10) "better not be a stub any more" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
i might switch to a more drastic plan B
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bear
keep the database until conversion?
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aaronpk
keep the DB and keep existing Loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
#
[kevinmarks]
Scrape the existing log pages as they are right?
#
[kevinmarks]
Spiderpig fixed btw
#
aaronpk
nah more like just continue rendering the logs from the DB as they are now
#
bear
how many rows are we talking about? could you take the log page generation code and isolate it to loop thru the database and generate the flat file?
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aaronpk
735,000 rows
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bear
that's not much at all
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aaronpk
i already have a script that converts those into the flat file format
#
aaronpk
and updated the log viewer to read the flat file format
#
aaronpk
but i can switch back to querying the DB
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bear
I don't think that was what I was suggesting
#
[kevinmarks]
So what is the flat file writing script doing different than the db querying log viewer?
#
bear
my suggestion is to scrape you current script and use the log viewer with a hack to have it start at the beginning and work forward while writing an html page that isn't really a page
#
bear
then post-process that to generate your flat file
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[kevinmarks]
Sending to a browser rather than a file?
#
aaronpk
i'm not sure i understand
#
aaronpk
by "flat file" i don't mean it's writing HTML files. it's actually json-encoding an object that has all the data for the line.
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aaronpk
the format is described here https://github.com/aaronpk/QuartzDB#filesystem
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[kevinmarks]
Is the encoding mojibake happening in the file writing, or the file reading?
#
aaronpk
it ends up wrong in the file
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[kevinmarks]
So, in json.put?
#
aaronpk
also if i just echo the line to the console it's wrong
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[kevinmarks]
This is in php?
#
aaronpk
yeah
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bear
apologies if this just makes your head explode... does it look right if you sql dump the database?
#
bear
if so, then you could process that file to generate your text-file-that-has-embedded-json-bits file
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aaronpk
let me check, i doubt it tho
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bear
(i'm just trying to see if there is some way to avoid the php json put glitch)
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KevinMarks
are you passing JSON_UNESCAPED_UNICODE to json_encode()
#
KevinMarks
that's supposed to send he chars as utf8 not \u escaped
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aaronpk
so mysqldump ends up writing things like '💩'
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KevinMarks
http://php.net/manual/en/json.constants.php#117466
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bear
so mysqldump is probably just writing bytes and not even trying to encode
#
KevinMarks
Ÿ isn't in iso 8859-1
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KevinMarks
only ÿ
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KevinMarks
(which was a mistake for ij)
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KevinMarks
(does it show that I spent over a year of my life dealing with encoding at Technorati)
#
aaronpk
now i'm wondering if my mysqldump and restore had something to do with this
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KevinMarks
are you using mbstring in PHP?
#
KevinMarks
mysqldump and restore could well mangle things yes
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aaronpk
no but i'm also not really using any string functions on the data
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KevinMarks
mbstring does complicate things I think without ti strings are just bytes, but my php is a bit out of date
#
KevinMarks
did the JSON_UNESCAPED_UNICODE make a difference?
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gRegorLove
Afternoon, indieweb
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gRegorLove
I saw there's utf8 encoding issues. wee.
#
Loqi
gRegorLove: [tantek] left you a message 5 hours, 53 minutes ago: I have no idea how to auto-extract the actual jpg url from the fake file: media wiki .jpg up that is not actually a jpg :P http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-04/line/1467649457852
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gRegorLove
Can the last part of that be translated? ^ :)
#
KevinMarks
more that there's MySQL made-up encoding issues
#
gRegorLove
I have a PHP script I've used to correct coerced utf8 characters in non-utf8 columns that's worked pretty well in the past. I can put up a gist of it.
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KevinMarks
https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/745404471132356608
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@kevinmarks
@benjamin_ashley @ftrain more that you learn how many successive bad design decisions MySQL made about unicode. (twtr.io/1DxwjjtYkiU)
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tantek
gRegorLove: sorry for my confusing .jpg vs jpg
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gRegorLove
I wasn't sure "up that is not actually a jpg" meant
#
tantek
URL
#
gRegorLove
Ohh
#
gRegorLove
I'm not sure offhand. There's probably some Mediawiki magic way
#
tantek
this is not a jpeg: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:hwc-got-2016-05-29.jpeg - it's an HTML page with a jpeg inside
#
tantek
there's probably some mediawiki magic to make the [[File:... magic actually style more nicely, like with a max-width:100% inside
#
tantek
hmm
#
tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+30) "let's see if we can trick mediawiki into doing the right thing with File: embedded images without worry about explicit styling or width attrs" (view diff)
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gRegorLove
[[:File:filename]] will apparently make a wiki link to the MediaWiki page for the image, but haven't found a built-in way to "just give me the URL of the darn image" heh
#
tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+13) "silly mediawiki, quit it with the explicit width height attrs" (view diff)
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tantek
oh heyyyyy
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tantek.com
created /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+134) "yeah this works" (view diff)
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gRegorLove
sweet!
#
tantek
gRegorLove: well I have half the problem solved: https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test
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tantek
at least default File: embedded images will not not overflow by default
#
tantek
see, CSS *can* be AWESOME
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gRegorLove
I love CSS
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gRegorLove
(when it doesn't frustrate me :))
#
tantek
alright, the harder part is getting the u-photo onto an actual image URL
#
tantek
that unfortunately likely requires hacking Vector
#
tantek
and it's not like every File: image embed should be a u-photo either
#
tantek
more like, there should be a way to pass in a class attr value
#
gRegorLove
Once we upgrade: "class={html class} — (MediaWiki 1.20+) Defines classes (maps to the HTML attribute class="..." of the generated <img /> element)."
#
gRegorLove
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images##class=%7Bhtml+class%7D
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tantek
was just trying that
#
aaronpk
oh boy. i just tried launching the DB version of the new logs on the real server and i'm still getting the encoding issues
#
aaronpk
i think now the only difference is the DB library i'm using to retrieve the results from mysql
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tantek
gah, gRegorLove MW <1.20 gives alt="class=u-photo" :(
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gRegorLove
aaronpk: table columns have the right collation character set, and connection is set explicitly to utf8?
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aaronpk
not exactly
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tantek
wow MW is so dumb at filtering I may be able to hack it >:D
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aaronpk
but the weird thing is the current logs behave like i want, but new logs don't, despite them being on the same server and using the same DB
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#
tantek
aaronpk, curioser and curioser
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tantek
wow I can't believe this seems to be working
#
gRegorLove
aaronpk: Hm. Ive usually found even if the columns aren't correct, if I run "set names utf8" first and the html specifies utf-8, "coerced" characters still show up right
#
tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+170) "see if class= works (nope, but this hack does!)" (view diff)
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tantek
darn it nope
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gRegorLove
Haha
#
gRegorLove
Valiant effort though
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aaronpk
switching to the other DB library worked
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com/bracket-file-test (+148) "nope nope nope" (view diff)
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aaronpk
which makes me wonder...
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gregorlove.com
edited /MySQL (+31) "/* Gregor Morrill */ note ProcessWire migration" (view diff)
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tantek
gRegorLove: I think you should teach workshops in MySQL and data integrity and charge like $1k/head
#
gRegorLove
anything I can do to help with the rename stuff?
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gRegorLove
Haha
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tantek
because isn't that the open source answer? make the open source monoculture library suck so bad that it supports highly paid consulting gigs / workshops for those that maintain the source "for free" ?
#
tantek
(I mean works for some popular CMSs that shall go unnamed)
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gRegorLove
I have no desire to go down that road
#
tantek
and then you can grow an "ecosystem" with "business models" ;)
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GWG
snarfed: I'm working on redoing that PR.
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gRegorLove
snarfed: Got a handful of old FB likes which the bridgy URLs are 404 for.
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-52) "walloftext--. big nav blocks for HWC and IWC weren't really adding anything directly relevant to the home page, good enough to link to separate pages with those nav blocks, some copy-editing" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-152) "/* More Information */ move separate live video link to main videos about page" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+127) "move live videos link here" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (-28) "link actual text not just silo name" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page () "(-1582) Drop "past events" section since no one was maintaining it since 2014 and that made it look like nothing recent had happened" (view diff)
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tantek
GWG, gRegorLove, aaronpk, et al check out the home page, I tried to trim the (semi-)redundant stuff from it, and it should be much shorter / to the point now than that previous so-called "wall of text"
#
tantek
https://indiewebcamp.com/
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aaronpk_
well that's odd
#
tantek
?
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aaronpk
testing web gateway
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tantek
ah ok - thought maybe that was a home page comment ;)
#
tantek
short of doing a full redesign - I want to see what incremental improvements could be made that attempted to make edits consistent with what seemed to be overall consensus at the summit
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-277) "code of conduct is more aligned with principles than just IWC, move it up. drop "Previous IndieWebCamps" list of links, also not updated (since last year?) and available from the "main" link of that section" (view diff)
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GWG
Should Indiewebcamp and Homebrew Website Club stay on the main page to the degree they are?
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tantek
GWG, I already shrunk down each of their sections considerably. Compare to yesterday.
#
tantek
a large part of what brings the community together are the (semi-)regular events
#
tantek
wow Google killed blog search so hard the options no longer work
#
tantek.com
edited /news (-77) "Google killed Blog Search at some point" (view diff)
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tantek
oops that was a half edit
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tantek.com
edited /news (-242) "collapse all the things! o/" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /news (-40) "/* Daily Activity */ -redundant Tagboard text" (view diff)
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tantek
ok, cleaned up /news a bit - take a look folks: https://indiewebcamp.com/news
#
tantek
GWG, re: IWC and HWC on the main page - check out how much got edited out today: https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=historysubmit&diff=29315&oldid=29186
#
GWG
Hmm...
#
tantek
looking for reviews, opinions, evaluations, feedback on updates to both https://indiewebcamp.com/ and https://indiewebcamp.com/news today (as compared to what they looked like yesterday, feel free to open two windws and compare side-by-side)
#
tantek
whether sad bad meh or glad
#
GWG
tantek: The news page is no longer long enough to need a TOC
#
tantek
GWG, is that a good thing or not? or are you suggesting __NOTOC__ ? (if so, sounds good to me, go ahead and __NOTOC__ it)
#
tantek.com
edited /news (+32) "see also press-kit" (view diff)
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GWG
I was suggesting NOTOC.
#
david.shanske.com
edited /news (-8) (view diff)
#
david.shanske.com
edited /news (+10) (view diff)
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gRegorLove
Thoughts on changing "IndieWebCamp has a code-of-conduct." to "The IndieWeb community has a code-of-conduct"?
#
gRegorLove
That appears on the homepage.
#
gRegorLove
!tell tantek Homepage edits look good to me
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks
text is a bit small on desktop on new homepage
#
KevinMarks
why .8em for body instead of 1em?
#
gRegorLove
Mediawiki default
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[kevinmarks]
Sidebar still illegible on mobile
#
gRegorLove
Mediawiki and Vector skin haven't been updated (not part of today's projects), but http://gregorlove.com/2016/06/i-am-tinkering-with-the/
#
Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] I am tinkering with the user-customized CSS for the indiewebcamp.com wiki and thought I would share.
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tantek
thanks gRegorLove. yes on indieweb community has a code of conduct - go for it
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Loqi
tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 30 minutes ago: Homepage edits look good to me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-07-04/line/1467675732778
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tantek
KevinMarks: yes, style problems remain - I did nearly purely content edits
#
tantek
definitely feel free to add style issue to https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki#Suggestions so we collect the
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Main_Page (+10) "/* Beyond Blogging and Decentralization */ The IndieWeb community has a code-of-conduct." (view diff)
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tantek
!tell kevinmarks looks like we have an existing issue re: mobile presentation https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/27 please add more details there!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gregorlove.com
edited /principles (+10) "The IndieWeb community has a code-of-conduct." (view diff)
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aaronpk
okay i need a plan C
#
gRegorLove
what's up?
#
aaronpk
I didn't get enough of a head start on the new chat logs
#
aaronpk
proposal: launch *logs only* on chat.indieweb.org for the two channels, but leave indiewebcamp.com/irc/today in place as the web gateway, and only mirror the one slack channel for now.
#
aaronpk
temporary of course
#
gRegorLove
Sounds good to me. Whateve rs simplest :)
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tantek
aaronpk, that sounds like a reasonable step forward
#
tantek
also demonstrates the need to have separate URLs for "web app UI to chat" vs "chat logs"
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aaronpk
eh, not "need", but this is a possible incremental step
#
tantek
I mean it helps right? then we could redirect each one as needed to wherever it's currently "running"
#
aaronpk
i guess. i'm just trying to reduce the number of steps right now
#
tantek
makes sense
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-151) "/* IndieWebCamp */ list indiewebcamps like hwcs, briefer, simpler" (view diff)
#
tantek
alright well that's a pretty big simplification of what the home page used to have for the big blocks of text for events.
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@altsalt
I will follow suit at some point, probably post having my laptop back and implementing the #IndieWeb https://twitter.com/makoshark/status/750118367525113856 (twtr.io/1ESHqb4EXFD)
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aaronpk
new plan! dropping streaming from the new logs! lol
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aaronpk
chat logs are live on chat.indieweb.org
#
aaronpk
https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-07-04
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ben_thatmustbeme
i like how the channel name changes in the logs header too
#
aaronpk
check it out: https://indieweb.org/
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aaronpk
ping
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Loqi
pong
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aaronpk
not totally sure how this channel forwarding thing works
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: from what i had looked up, it was a spam security feature really, have certain people redirected on join, to another room
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and its just setting the rule to everyone
#
aaronpk
well it's active
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aaronpk
Welcome! Next meetup Bellingham, Göteborg, Portland, & SF https://indieweb.org/events/2016-06-29-homebrew-website-club! See code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log http://chat.indieweb.org/today
#
aaronpk
oops
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GWG
Another room
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GWG
aaronpk: Can't I just join it?
#
aaronpk
yep!
#
aaronpk
now how do I mark these as done on https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb
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ben_thatmustbeme
with bold or color saying (Completed on 2016-07-04)?
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KartikPrabhu
this work?
#
cweiske
!tell tantek "actual fail 32 bytes" - you don't understand what that message actually means. Accept the idea that other people may know more about things than you - https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=WordPress&diff=29258&oldid=prev
#
aaronpk
Loqi??
#
KartikPrabhu
Loqi wassup?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
ping
#
ben_thatmustbeme
did Loqi not like the redirect maybe?
#
aaronpk
hm Loqi might be confused about ending up in a different channel than he joined
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ben_thatmustbeme
ping
#
aaronpk
ping
#
cweiske
!tell tantek "actual fail 32 bytes" - you don't understand what that message actually means. Accept the idea that other people may know more about a thing than you - https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=WordPress&diff=29258&oldid=prev
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ben_thatmustbeme
:(
#
cweiske
no, broken. https://indieweb.org/irc/2016-07-04 does also not log correctly
#
aaronpk
oh here we go
#
aaronpk
ping
#
Loqi
pong
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ben_thatmustbeme
Loqi, 1 or 2?
#
Loqi
2
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what is indieweb?
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aaronpk
what is indiewebcamp?
#
Loqi
IndieWebCamps are brainstorming and building events where IndieWeb creators gather semi-regularly to meet in person, share ideas, and collaborate on IndieWeb design, UX, & code for their own sites https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebcamp
#
KartikPrabhu
is this the place?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yar
#
miklb
finds humor the channels switched about same time Juno entered Jupiters orbit
#
KartikPrabhu
it is a cosmic coincidence of catastrophic consequences!
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ben_thatmustbeme
i locked up my computer and just cannot get back in to #indiewebcamp at all, was wondering how my client would handle being in both rooms
#
KartikPrabhu
mine says " you need invitation to join #indiewebcamp"
#
aaronpk
it didn't automatically redirect you to #indieweb?
#
KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yes it did. but also said the above
#
aaronpk
ah k
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, i'm off to bed
#
KartikPrabhu
have now natively switched to #indeweb
#
aaronpk-test
cool that worked
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[aaronpk]
test test
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[kevinmarks]
I see you
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aaronpk
does it work the other way?
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aaronpk
ping
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Loqi
pong
#
aaronpk
web logs are fixed
#
aaronpk
!tell aaronpk hi
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
KartikPrabhu
!karma tantek
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Loqi
tantek has 298 karma
#
KartikPrabhu
good
#
aaronpk
important things
#
KartikPrabhu
hmm did the tell not work?
#
aaronpk
oh it didn't reach the 60 second cutoff
#
aaronpk
Loqi doesn't actually repeat the message in the first 60 seconds
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KartikPrabhu
!tell aaronpk stay quiet for 60s
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: you can talk now
#
aaronpk
hello
#
Loqi
aaronpk: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 minutes ago: stay quiet for 60s
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi, here's a cookie for a good job
#
Loqi
grins profusely
#
aaronpk
woo
#
aaronpk
slack is fixed
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aaronpk
wait what
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mblaney
I don't know where I am.
#
aaronpk
lol
#
mblaney
well sort of works :-)
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Kevinmarks1
Hm. I can talk on slack but not see it here
#
[kevinmarks]
But if I talk in html it does show up in slack
#
aaronpk
everything looks fine to me
#
[kevinmarks]
It worked that time
#
[kevinmarks]
https://indiewebcamp.slack.com/archives/indieweb/p1467692715006614
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[kevinmarks]
Didn't come through
#
aaronpk
i fixed it in between the time it didn't work and the time it did
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KevinMarks
Splendid
#
mblaney
should chat.indieweb.org update the page automatically?
#
rrix
hi there, from Matrix
#
aaronpk
mblaney: not yet
#
aaronpk
i mean yes it should, but it doesn't yet because reasons
#
mblaney
ok no worries. nice work so far aaronpk!
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@CaptainKurtis
@saltyhorse @aparrish @textfiles me too. Reminds me of #indiewebcamp. Til then, looks like verifying w/ Wikisource b4 syndicating is best. (twtr.io/1ESZ8AEufv_)
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cweiske
loqi also does not show wiki edits
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Loqi
yeah!
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aaronpk
Wiki edits moved to #indieweb-dev
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cweiske
no, that's not good
#
cweiske
ok
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@voxpelli
@synvila Perhaps rather a feed reader that supports Micropub so that it can send your actions back home so you yourself can send Webmentions (twtr.io/1ESak1fFyrj)
#
voxpelli
Good morning! Nice progress on the renaming I see :)
(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)