#indieweb 2017-03-29

2017-03-29 UTC
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aaronpk that was tricky
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Tool Review: Timbuk2 Command Messenger Bag by Favorite Things" by Favorite Things on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2014/03/05/timbuk2-command-messenger-bag/#comment-34240
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Tool Review: Zojirushi Stainless Steel Mug by Favorite Things" by Favorite Things on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2014/03/05/zojirushi/#comment-34241
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on What I’m Doing Now by Favorite Things" by Favorite Things on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/now/#comment-34242
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sknebel Loqi, please explain how that is "[indieweb]" :P
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gRegorLove !tell chrisaldrich I'm getting my micropub support up to snuff and thinking more about an mp client for /read posts. Would love your input.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [indieweb] "likes Switched my @withknown site https://known.stierand.org to use the current dev version from Github. Now for some plugin debugging. #indieweb" by Scott Kingery on 2017-03-29 http://techlifeweb.com/15763-2/
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[eddie] gRegorLove: Definitely interested in those conversations as well as I’ve been thinking about in the next several months trying to tackle a “media” post client. (I’m beginning to look at /watch /listen and /read posts as all similar, in a interested -> in progress -> finished -> reviewed workflow)
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[eddie] Sorry for this repost everybody, I just realized I should have added tell to it.
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[eddie] !tell gRegorLove Definitely interested in those conversations as well as I’ve been thinking about in the next several months trying to tackle a “media” post client. (I’m beginning to look at /watch /listen and /read posts as all similar, in a interested -> in progress -> finished -> reviewed workflow)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove waves
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[eddie] oh haha. you’re still on
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Loqi [eddie]: lol
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gRegorLove Nice! Are you posting your /watch posts all manually now?
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gRegorLove They look great, btw.
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aaronpk presence detection is not bridged between slack and IRC ;-)
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M-mxuribe i noticed mention of pnut here...does anyone know if ts federated/decentralized?
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gRegorLove eddit: I haven't thought through it much so far, but one thought I had was once a new book (or other media) is posted, the mp server could respond to a config request with a list of options, so you can select "recently reading" items in the client.
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gRegorLove *eddie ^
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[eddie] Thanks gRegorLove. I was doing manual until the other day. It’s semi-manual now. I’m using a command line app to fetch all the data needed and to assist me in creating the proper post format as of a couple days ago. More in-depth info over here: http://eddiehinkle.com/article/2017/03/making-watch-posts.html
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Making /watch posts
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[eddie] That’s a great idea, gRegorLove
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[eddie] The communication is tricky, but I’d love to find some way to use a client to mark things I’m “Interested” in, and then you could select to see recent interested or recent in-progress to move things forward in that general workflow. But it’s tough to figure out how much of that should be in client and how much can be stored at an endpoint, since obviously it would take a fair amount of work to get the various endpoints of places to support
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@physcocode @ChrisAldrich @drupal @withknown Actually I am tempted to bring #indieweb concepts like #webmentions to @drupal soc… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/846934692532248578 (twitter.com/_/status/846934692532248578)
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gRegorLove I think to keep it simple to start, the client should be pretty basic. Create new posts for a piece of media. If the server has config for types of media or verbs, the client could show those optins, like "Interested in x" "Currently reading x" "Currently watching x"
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[eddie] :thumbsup: That makes sense
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[eddie] That’s actually an interesting catch. The way you phrased that made me realize /watch and /read might not be able to be as similar as I was hoping.... “Watching x” means that you are also probably done with it. But “Reading x” means that you might be “In-progress” and at some point have to track how far through you are. Whereas almost no one is going to record 50% through watching a tv show or movie
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[eddie] ?
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[eddie] I’ll have to sleep on that one
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bear TV episodes are like a multi-book series
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miklb bear++
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Loqi bear has 133 karma in this channel (182 overall)
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bear :)
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miklb definitely could see tracking season and episode. Especially if you reflect on something about the series
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tantek re: watch/read - I think both are useful (used?) for both in-progress and completed experiences
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tantek I vaguley remember people mentioning "checkin into" a tv show at the start or during, as a way of seeing who else is watching it right then at the same time
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tantek Swarm allows checking into events at venues, and at movie theaters, individual movies, which is thus a /watch post of sorts since you're saying you're watching that movie
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GWG tantek: Didn't those checkin tv sites shut down?
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tantek GWG, I don't know, I never used any of them
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tantek but they did exist, and people did use them
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snarfed [eddie]: fwiw i do the interested vs in progress vs consumed thing on my lists pages, e.g. https://snarfed.org/books
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] books
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GWG I think one was getglue or something like that?
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snarfed workflow is entirely manual, but doesn't hurt (me) yet :P
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tantek snarfed, at least it's in one place!
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GWG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvtag
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GWG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miso_TV
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GWG This is the other one I remember
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tantek are those at least documented on /watch as former silos? Like the former silos on /checkin ?
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GWG I don't know. I was just thinking about it.
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GWG Will look
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GWG One of them was
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aaronpk I use Trakt.tv
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[eddie] Yep, trakt.tv for my private tracking of what shows I still need to watch because I stream all of my shows in iOS apps and it’s hard to keep track of when there’s been a new episode. and I post on my site to express what shows I have been watching.
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@HongPong We tried to use the libraries from #indieweb as much as possible. Plz look things over on issue thx @physcocode @gRegorLove @ChrisAldrich (twitter.com/_/status/846955318865252353)
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[eddie] bear miklb interesting, hadn’t thought of that necessarily. I try to make sure all of my posts are linked to the root series, but haven’t thought about that much further than making sure it’s linked
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gRegorLove What was getglue?
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Loqi tvtag (formerly GetGlue) was a social service for checking in to TV shows, movies, and sports that you are watching https://indieweb.org/GetGlue
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tantek What is Trakt.tv?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Trakt.tv" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek eddie, https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-03-29/1490763220102000
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Loqi [tantek] I vaguley remember people mentioning "checkin into" a tv show at the start or during, as a way of seeing who else is watching it right then at the same time...
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[eddie] Tantek: interesting! Hmmm would that "expire" at anytime? Or would the datetime stamp just be used to group people who were watching the same show at the same time?
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tantek the latter
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tantek similar to /read, you could have /watch posts that are "in progress" (e.g. at a timestamp), or "completed watching"
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tantek hah - just got "Sorry! We're having technical difficulties. Check status.foursquare.com for the latest." from a Foursquare check-in permalink! (desktop website)
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tantek appears that Swarm does not maintain any particular order of photos attached to a checkin, in fact, attaching photos after the initial checkin / photos may insert the anywhere in the list of photos (not necessarily time order)
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tantek alright, upgraded my latest two photos to use 1920x1440 resolution if anyone is curious, but since they've already been POSSEd, the downstream copies do not benefit
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tantek However, the downstream copies all link back to the original post, so the improved resolution photo is still discoverable from the POSSE copies
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tantek last three photos I posted link to 1920x1440 versions of themselves which should be desktop/background suitable
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@EatPodcast Or you could write a blog post https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/or-you-could-write-a-blog-post #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/846989383651733506)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb Quote of the Day: Vladimir Bukovsky On Samizdat by Jeremy Cherfas" by Jeremy Cherfas on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/28/indieweb-quote-of-the-day-vladimir-bukovsky-on-samizdat/#comment-34244
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[jeremycherfas] !tell M-mxuribe pnut is not federated/decentralised as far as I know
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske is there a wordpress plugin that takes "normal" wordpress comments, extracts the emoji comments and displays them separately like github or slack do for example?
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cweiske this would declutter the comments
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cweiske same for likes
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cweiske "user likes this post" -> like facepile
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petermolnar I'm not aware of any, but with https://github.com/dissolve/single-emoji-recognizer it should be doable
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petermolnar at least I used that in my webmention plugin (when it was still alive)
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sknebel some WP users have facepiles for likes
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cweiske sknebel, do you know how they do it?
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sknebel https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-03-24#t1490388850292000 miklb shared some code
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Loqi [miklb] for the curious, until I am able to package up the theme, here's the gist of my comments https://gist.github.com/miklb/4ba5ea34dc7ad8031afea9414d477bce...
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sknebel sgreger has facepiles as well, you could mail him and ask as well (he isn't around IRC much)
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sknebel haven't seen anything for reacji yet
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sebsel I'm not on WP, but I have a facepile (http://5eb.nl/4nH6) based on aaronpk's lib: https://aaronparecki.com/2017/02/18/12/day-60-emoji-detector
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Day 45: receiving reacji
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miklb good morning
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Loqi good morning!
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sknebel Morning!
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miklb checks his code to see if it matches latest production
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miklb matches :-)
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miklb had a tweet get ~100 likes & RTs. Would have been a great example for facepiles if I had POSSEd :-p
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aaronpk always be POSSEing
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miklb yeah. I wa lazy to do it manually and quote tweeting is currently broken on my site
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GWG Then you'll be part of the POSSE posse
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sknebel miklb: then PESOS it manually, quickly ;)
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sknebel only have to hit the "retry" button on bridgy 100 times afterwards
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miklb might be worth it since I'd like to adapt my code to use the built in function to get the count and do a conditional class to make the author images smaller if > certain numer
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sknebel (does anybody know if twitter stops sending notification e-mails over a certain volume? if not, that would be another way to get "full" information about Retweets as they happen)
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sknebel (I'd expect them to have some kind of limitation, but no idea what it is)
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GWG Greetings
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M-mxuribe [jeremycherfas]: Sorry i missed your note on pnut last night; thanks!
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Loqi M-mxuribe: [jeremycherfas] left you a message 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: pnut is not federated/decentralised as far as I know
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[jeremycherfas] M-mxuribe are you on pnut?
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aaronpk i don't understand the appeal of another social network that isn't federated/decentralized. why are people excited about pnut?
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[jeremycherfas] Because it is replacing ADN (as is 10C) and those of us who enjoyed the vastly superior experience of ADN are seeking to continue with that kind of network.
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[jeremycherfas] It isn’t about the plumbing, it is about the shower.
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singpolyma Looks like a weekend-project twitter clone
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[jeremycherfas] You took a good long look, did you?
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aaronpk is it more about the people there or about the way the site works?
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aaronpk i'm genuinely curious, didn't mean to sound sarcastic
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[jeremycherfas] It is about the people and the way we (they) interact. It is hard to explain to people who know on Twitter, withy its acrimony, anonymousness and general awful behaviour, what a difference it makes. Having 256 characters seems to be a big part of that (more on 10C).
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[jeremycherfas] Would you like an invite so you can see for yourself?
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M-mxuribe [jeremycherfas]: yes, i am on pnut...but only got an account very late last night.
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[chrisaldrich] Though keep in mind that just like a small circle of friends in real life, the shared past experience will make you an "outsider" for a while because you don't have their shared history...
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: gRegorLove left you a message 14 hours, 32 minutes ago: I'm getting my micropub support up to snuff and thinking more about an mp client for /read posts. Would love your input.
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M-mxuribe i dont favor yet another silo social network...i'm a proponent of federated /decentralized everything...
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aaronpk is there anything different about the mechanics of the interactions? or is it really just equivalent to app.net?
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M-mxuribe however, if the people and their interactions are cool...may be ripe for persuading to go the federated route.
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[chrisaldrich] One might liken the experience with an analogy. Twitter is like the massive stadium in which you know a handful of people you can hang out with, but still have to put up with a loud noisy crowd clamoring around you. pnut/10C are more like a small high school of 400 and you'll find your clique where you can mostly enjoy life without too much bother.
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GWG There are too many networks for me to keep up on
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M-mxuribe my dream platform: an easy to install (and maintain) platform that accomodates indiweb principles for both long form posts as well as federated social media-style interactions (i.e. near-real-time).
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[chrisaldrich] like M-mxuribe, I think that many of the developers there might appreciate a more indieweb flavored federated option, they just aren't aware of how it can be or how to build it.
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[jeremycherfas] I’m not enough of a dev to know how different the mechanics are. Better to contact @33mhz there. It is his baby. One of the attractions, I believe, is that the community just isn’t that large, currently about 450 users, nor does it need to be to be sustainable.
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aaronpk what i'm really curious about is how communities like app.net and pnut attract app developers so quickly https://pnut.io/apps
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GWG To Dream the Impossible Dream...
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aaronpk [jeremycherfas]: i meant mechanics of interactions, like how replies work, navigating between posts in a thread, etc
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M-mxuribe ...(sorry sent too soon),...but my dream platform needs to be installable by a less-than-techie person (not necessarily my granma)
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[jeremycherfas] Like ADN, pnut has a developer incentive program.
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[jeremycherfas] And people are willing to pay for the apps. Apero is $9.99.
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk: devs in search of a problem perhaps? Social networks are something that they can/could /dogfood themselves.
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@benwerd I'd really love to see someone from the #indieweb community working on a venture. http://matter.vc/apply/ (twitter.com/_/status/847115083318607872)
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[jeremycherfas] A lot of the mechanics of interaction is down to the apps, rather than determined by the platform. So different apps do it differently. I use Riposte on iOS and it is very different from Broadsword in Chrome. Each dev seems to adopt a different approach to how things ought to work.
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[chrisaldrich] I almost think that the dev tax or in jeremycherfas's Apero example, the app tax means there's a greater "buy-in" for participating in a community.
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[jeremycherfas] My limited understanding is that the API makes it possible to do all sorts of things in all sorts of ways.
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[jeremycherfas] I think the whole notion of paying to be the customer, rather than being the product, engenders a different approach.
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tantek chrisaldrich, been really appreciating and learning from your wikifying of indieweb and academia intersection stuff
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[chrisaldrich] considers quitting my day job to work on #indieweb and journalism after benwerd's notice...
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tantek chrisaldrich, I think you have enough material there (indieweb and education, academic samizdat) to propose an OSBridge talk for sure and you totally should: http://opensourcebridge.org/call-for-proposals/
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[chrisaldrich] thanks tantek...
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sknebel chrisaldrich++ full agreement with tantek, great articles
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 15 karma in this channel (20 overall)
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tantek There's a lot of alignment there: indieweb/academia/opensource, and I think your perspective and the connections you highlight are particularly interesting and illuminating
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M-mxuribe [chrisaldrich]: i can see the advantages of a "buy in" for participating in a community...but the threshold cant be too high.
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tantek let me know if I can be of any help, reviewing etc.
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[jeremycherfas] One of the big mistakes a lot of us think ADN made was not allowing devs to create signups; too high a barrier to make use of the platform. Don’t forget, the social aspect of ADN was “only” a demonstration.
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I may just have to do that....
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aaronpk [jeremycherfas]: the social aspect continued to be the main focus tho, and also is the thing people re-create as an app.net replacement
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[chrisaldrich] looks to see if Indieweb summit is around that week...
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[jeremycherfas] I pnut is currently completely free, although you need an invite. I believe the plan is to offer paid accounts that will include things like file storage. At the moment, several of the apps integrate with other storage options for, e.g., hosting of images for display in pnut.
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[jeremycherfas] Aaronpk Absolutely right. Social is what people want.
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[chrisaldrich] Though I suspect it's the openness for future ideas and interactions that people want as well. Otherwise everyone would still be in AOL chatroom/community squares...
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[jeremycherfas] chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 16 karma in this channel (21 overall)
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tantek chrisaldrich, we're trying to figure out a good weekend for IndieWeb Summit!
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tantek See /Planning
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[chrisaldrich] sknebel: thanks!
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[jeremycherfas] Anyway, a few of us in pnut and 10C are gently steering things towards indieweb. Pnut may be easier because I believe others are contributing to the platform, in addition to app devs, while 10C is a single dev, although some people are building apps too.
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tantek does that single dev have their own blog?
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aaronpk what I would love to see is the app developers that are building pnut apps put that energy into apps that work with any network
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aaronpk so what i'm wondering is how to encourage that
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[jeremycherfas] Yes, he does.
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tantek chrisaldrich, and actually everyone - could you add yourself to can help or interested here: https://indieweb.org/Planning#Summit (and any thoughts / proposals for possible dates! )
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tantek aaronpk: I believe one way is to get pnut to support Micropub server APIs
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[jeremycherfas] tantek: https://matigo.ca is his mothership, and he has others
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tantek which should be doable since there are already numerous Micropub clients that would "just work"
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tantek jeremycherfas, oof sounds like he's under a lot of pressure recently.
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aaronpk that doesn't really solve the problem, unless Micropub is the *only* API for creating pnut posts, otherwise app developers will just keep using the pnut API
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[jeremycherfas] Aaronpk: I don’t know enough about it, but as the different networks have different APIs etc, how does that work?
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[jeremycherfas] Tantek: Oh yes! That’s a pattern.
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tantek aaronpk: not true, when there is a standard vs proprietary, then it's in the interest of client developers to support the standard, because they are motivated by their app working with more servers
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aaronpk true, but in this case, it's kind of a chicken and egg situation then. because still someone building a pnut app has more interest in having it work with pnut than some unknown number of "other" servers
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[cleverdevil] Seems like Micro.blog may be more likely to attract people to IndieWeb than pnut.
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tantek aaronpk that's a false dichotomy
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tantek if pnut were to support Micropub as a server, then someone building a pnut app would have to decide between supporting *just* pnut, or pnut + other servers
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tantek the latter option seems obv
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[chrisaldrich] jeremycherfas One of the things I'm seeing between pnut and 10c is that there's a good bit of overlap in their userships. The question then is which one "wins"? If they both supported webmention and micropub, then it wouldn't matter which one wins, users could use one or the other (or both), but the tools developed could be used for either.
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tantek since you would get pnut support either way
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[jeremycherfas] Aaronpk: That’s it precisely. But it isn’t restricted to pnut. Look at the trouble dgold has been having trying to get withknown to talk to pnut.
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aaronpk it's not that clean-cut, because there will inevitably be features that the pnut API supports that aren't part of micropub
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tantek I guess I don't believe that until specific examples are provided
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tantek and that's not applicable to all potential pnut apps either
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tantek I'd guess that most "simple" apps would be just fine with the functionality offered by micropub
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, but in that case, couldn't those potential features be added to micropub and thus available to all?
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aaronpk [chrisaldrich]: to some extent yes
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tantek chrisaldrich - or view vocabulary extensions
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[jeremycherfas] Chrisaldrich You’re right, there is a lot of overlap, mostly refugees from ADN. I’m not sure whether one of them will win. Right now, 10C offers much more than pnut in terms of stuff you can do in addition to social.
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aaronpk here's an example: "is_nsfw" is a parameter in the pnut API for creating posts
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tantek sounds like category:nsfw :P
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tantek next
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aaronpk i'm not sure everyone would agree that "category" makes sense for tha
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[jeremycherfas] Allow me a cynical question. Why isn’t there an indieweb social web? Why are you all here on Slack and in IRC?
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tantek aaronpk, the debate about that literally happened years ago
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aaronpk [jeremycherfas]: the indieweb social web is our websites
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tantek people in #microformats were proposing all kinds of convoluted nsfw solutions, and it turned out the category solved all the usecases
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tantek what is realtime?
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Loqi Realtime generally refers to a user experience where content is updated live; for example: a new comment shows up on a page while you're viewing it, or chat notification "your friend is typing a message." https://indieweb.org/Realtime
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tantek jeremycherfas ^^^
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[chrisaldrich] Looking with 20/20 hindsight, it seems to me that pnut and 10c are reinventing the wheel when they could be building the next new thing.
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[jeremycherfas] And it isn’t easy to follow and participate in threaded discussions on any of them.
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tantek what is follow?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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aaronpk [jeremycherfas]: right, the big missing piece right now is options for readers
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[chrisaldrich] jeremycherfas I would probably spend more time on pnut and/or 10c, but I would do it in some sense to interact with you. Since we both have indieweb enabled sites, with richer interaction possibilities than either of the others, it kind of kills my motivation.
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tantek aaronpk, still disagreed about that, integrated reading > options for readers
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tantek Just the very notion of "readers" I think is a bad framing
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aaronpk i mean the experience of readers more than the implementation of it
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tantek because it implies a separate thing
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tantek the problem is that the noun "readers" implies a separate thing
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tantek hence the framing problem
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tantek it should be more like, does your website support following and reading?
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[jeremycherfas] Chrisaldrich Likewise, I follow you here, to some extent, and in my RSS reader, but an app on a mobile device that I can check every half hour to see what’s going on, just as I might check Twitter, makes that convenient.
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[chrisaldrich] tries to grok tantek's point which may be more subtle than IRC allows.
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tantek jeremycherfas, why isn't your website that "app on a mobile device that I can check every half hour"?
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aaronpk that's the big difference between the idea of a "blog" and "reader" vs these social networks that keep popping up
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[jeremycherfas] I’m really enjoying this conversation right here right now, in real time, although conscious I have to out in a minute.
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aaronpk [jeremycherfas]: can you point me to the original posts that announced pnut?
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aaronpk where did it come from?
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tantek there are "social networks" that keep disappearing
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk: sadly some of those posts may have been on the now-dead ADN, though Manton may have them hiding in a database....
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[jeremycherfas] Tantek: Because getting the plumbing to work is a bit beyond me. I’m not competent to ensure that the things I want to see on pnut, 10C, your website, everyone else’s website, feed through to that. I could probably do it into Newsblur. Why would I *want* to do it on my site?
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tantek jeremycherfas because you already do everything else on your website!
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aaronpk this is demonstrating the framing problem again
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tantek like you bookmark things you want to read later, you post /read post when you're reading / have read something, you post a /like when you like something you've read
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tantek chrisaldrich, jeremycherfas, lots more here: http://indieweb.org/reader
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[jeremycherfas] aaronpk: I can’t, I’m afraid. I believe development started after the announcement that ADN would eventually shut down, and it sought originally to mimic the ADN API so that experience could be put to good use. I’m trying to get Robert, the pnut dev, to be interested. He may yet show up.
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[chrisaldrich] the dev tax of doing it on his own site may be too high. Why not occasionally rely on the value of apps like Swarm or Instagram that can be used to micropub content into his site? Or super rich readers like feedly, which might take him years to recreate?
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M-mxuribe /mxuribe is heating up lunch as he follows this really cool discussion.
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M-mxuribe (hmm, i guess my irc skills are way rusty)
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[chrisaldrich] I'll admit that having a reader built into my site now changes how I use the internet, but it's also something I may not have built myself.
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tantek welcome mxuribe! yes you want /me :)
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[jeremycherfas] Tantek: In my dreams. I do what I can on my website, and trying to learn to do more. But the fact is, I rely on many, many other sites to do stuff for me.
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M-mxuribe tantek: ah, yes, the rust gets lose now. :-)
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[chrisaldrich] We also need jeremycherfas
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tantek jeremycherfas, that's fine too. e.g. you can use another client to /bookmark things to your website that you discover elsewhere
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[chrisaldrich] to be making more food related podcasts instead of improvements on his site...
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[cleverdevil] I'm firmly of the opinion that a successful platform will need to have both content creation, consumption, *and* interaction.
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tantek jeremycherfas, then when you launch your personal site, if you're logged in as you to your own site, you should see a list of your recent bookmarks, perhaps even locally cached, so you can read them!
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[jeremycherfas] Haha.
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Loqi nice
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[cleverdevil] A truly awesome IndieWeb Reader is my white whale ?
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[manton] chrisaldrich I should have them and could put Pnut-related posts online if anyone needs them. Don't have a public searchable database yet. (I archived raw JSON.)
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tantek manton! :D
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M-mxuribe i still think there could be one-all-encompassing foundation for a person's "online presence" which is at its base is a domain name...then there would be modules for adding functionality such as bookmarking, consuming/replying to others' posts, publishing one's own posts (and posseing of course), etc.
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tantek mmm raw JSON, so crunchy! Just got to be careful with the { } that sometimes get stuck in your teeth.
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[jeremycherfas] Truly, I think some of you who live and breathe the technology have forgotten that there was a time when you couldn’t do what you wanted.
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tantek jeremycherfase, it's a spectrum, from difficult (seemingly impossible), to hard, tedious, manual, semi-automatic, seamless
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tantek many of us are still walking that path for different features on our sites, few of us are at "seamless" for all features (aaronpk may be an exception ;) )
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[jeremycherfas] Did you, for example, see this silliness? http://blog.jaredsinclair.com/post/158917878165/stormcrow Which I wrote briefly about https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/or-you-could-write-a-blog-post
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[manton] tantek Heh. Yeah, it's not ideal but was the quickest way I could archive 50+ million posts without also building a database backend to support searching, etc. (Download first, plan features later.)
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tantek *jeremycherfas - sorry, lack of autocomplete for Slack names makes it harder ;)
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tantek or should I just give up and say [jeremycherfas]
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tantek hmm
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aaronpk you can still tab-complete if you type [jeremycherfas] first
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aaronpk er, [j
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tantek yeah that's what I just did
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[chrisaldrich] the nice part is that the new "wheels" of the internet are micropub and webmention which disintermediate people's need to "build it all" for themselves.
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk that also properly translates the IRC message back to a slack @-mention
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tantek chrisaldrich, right, the point of such simple modular specs to reduce the implementation costs for basic indieweb / social web interactions
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tantek aaronpk: neat! as opposed to just a keyword mention?
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aaronpk yeah
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sknebel good IRC clients even complete if you just type j-tab ;)
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[jeremycherfas] It’s a spectrum, for sure. And most people — the vast majority — are happy to leave everything in someone else’s hands.
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aaronpk i still don't have a "seamless" reader experience for my website. that's the big missing piece for me
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aaronpk especially since i finally have checkins
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tantek jeremycherfas, until they get burned enough times by other people's hands
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[cleverdevil] That's true jeremycherfas, but that doesn't mean that SaaS/Silo is the answer.
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[chrisaldrich] wonders how to modularize readers?
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tantek !xkcd instagram
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/1150/ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/instagram.png
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tantek jeremycherfas ^^^
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[jeremycherfas] Actually M-mxuribe what you are describing is almost what chrisaldrich has done with WordPress
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[cleverdevil] I think that having a really awesome open platform like WordPress is a good start, along with making it easy for people to move between hosts.
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[cleverdevil] Then, people own their data in the truest sense, and the providers compete on service and performance, rather than by mining your data.
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tantek also, just to question your line of thinking, nothing great / massively successful got built by handwringing about what "most people — the vast majority" are happy or not with
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tantek or rather, every successful massive site got started building for an actively interested minority, and then grew from there
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tantek they specifically IGNORED "most people — the vast majority" in order to focus, ship, iterate
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[chrisaldrich] cleverdevil++ for that last sentiment
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Loqi cleverdevil has 12 karma in this channel (14 overall)
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M-mxuribe [jeremycherfas]: hmmm...wordpress....i guess, i can look at my 'old friend'.
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[chrisaldrich] that same type of competition to create awesome micropub apps goes along with that... I'm hoping it'll open up a new Cambrian explosion of internet development and competition.
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[jeremycherfas] chrisaldrich Is making me reconsider my decision a few years ago to abandon it.
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[jeremycherfas] OK. This has been fun, educational and exciting. But I gotta go. See you all later.
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M-mxuribe [jeremycherfas]: it was fun; see ya!
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[chrisaldrich] One only needs to read the first chapter of Tim Wu's Master Switch to shudder at how pandering to most people creates major monopolies as well. Designing to distribute from the start makes owning the entire enterprise more difficult.
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[chrisaldrich] jeremycherfas bye. Thanks for joining an impromptu IndieWebCamp session.
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dgold is sorry he missed being part of this discussion.
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aaronpk dgold: the discussion is never over :)
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[cleverdevil] ?
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[chrisaldrich] We should circle back on how to help the folks at pnut and 10c buy into the modularism of indieweb, so they could be building something more meaningful like manton.
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dgold while I've made a start on a plugin to pnut - I did that both because I was losing ADN & pnut had an approproately similar API, thus I could pick up mapycka's work on ADN and run with it.
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Loqi yea
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dgold however: doing that has, for want of a better phrase, made me 'woke' to the point that I really don't enjoy the limitations of any social media silo
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sknebel what is silo.pub?
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Loqi silo.pub is a Micropub endpoint for hosted blogs like Tumblr, WordPress.com, Blogger, and Twitter https://indieweb.org/Silo.pub
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[chrisaldrich] dgold, but it also goes back to that issue on brid.gy for creating backfeed for pnut when it would be far easier and more powerful to just get pnut to support webmention in the first place.
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dgold I don't think I've posted anything to pnut save dev-related posts (testing the plumbing) since I started working on the plugin
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[chrisaldrich] I've noticed that the majority of pnut posts seem to be about pnut dev. But this is not much different from the early days of Twitter either.
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dgold truth be told, of the two ADN-related silos currently working, I prefer the community in 10C - albeit that's from a purely political avoision stance than anything more structurally related
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sknebel silo.pub throws internal server error?
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dgold [chrisaldrich]: this is true. there are a lot of over-excited people on there atm, it appears to have taken significant mind-share of ADN
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aaronpk sknebel: kylewm has been having trouble with his server for a while. I set up a copy of silo.pub here if you want to use it https://silopub.p3k.io/
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sknebel thanks, but I just wondered about it in the context of the discussion here
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dgold I'd note also that the admin of pnut is encountering a similar problem to the key breakdown of ADN - he wants to do more with the platform, whereas many of the users want !twitter for $REASONS
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sknebel e.g. if syndicate-to-micropub plugins for important platforms + "adapters" like silo.pub, maybe optimized to be locally hosted as well, would be an interesting pattern. but that's probably tricky to make in a way that works well universally
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[chrisaldrich] dgold, have you had (could you have?) a conversation with him to indiewebify it? Decentralizing it could help to do both while solving some other dev problems at the same time.
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dgold [chrisaldrich]: you're quite correct that it would be more sensible if one of the post-ADN platforms were to make their platform's USP something mf/mp related - the 10C guy did come by here a little whiles ago - @matigo
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dgold I wasn't about when he was here - I'd love to be able to report that all went well, but don't know what happened.
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[chrisaldrich] dgold The benefits of logged chat: https://indiechat.search.cweiske.de/?q=matigo
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[chrisaldrich] cweiske++ for chat search
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Loqi cweiske has 70 karma in this channel (81 overall)
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[chrisaldrich] re-reads the last hour of conversation for extra richness and nuance
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dgold its a fascinating conversation - all of it
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dgold my tl;dr - I've started that plugin, I'll keep working on it, but I'm not seeing the benefit _to me_ of greater or deeper involvement in either silo
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dgold I keep coming round to sharecropping
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tantek dgold++ for "'woke' to the point that I really don't enjoy the limitations of any social media silo"
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Loqi dgold has 7 karma in this channel (9 overall)
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dgold I appreciate that 'sharecropping' isn't the currently accepted term hereabouts, but its fully on point to how I feel about the issue
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk: I won't presume to add extra load to your silo.pub alternate server, but I notice it's not listed on the /silo.pub page.
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dgold heh. poor aaron
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tantek dgold, I think sharecropping is still appropriately negative
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tantek it's "homesteading" that had problems and has been largely abandoned
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tantek (as a term)
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[chrisaldrich] What is sharecropping?
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Loqi sharecropping in the context of the IndieWeb is the practice of primarily or exclusively creating/publishing content on silos as opposed to doing so first (or primarily) on your own site, and those that do publish primarily or exclusively on silos are known as sharecroppers https://indieweb.org/sharecropping
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tantek hmm it looks like we never documented the problems with the term "homesteading"
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tantek it was across a few blog posts
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[dgold] Oh, wow, from that wiki page I found myself back in 2008 & the Dave Winer / TechCrunch spat... ?
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benwerd chrisaldrich, scrolling up: hint is that you don't need to quit your job to pitch
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benwerd :)
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snarfed benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 103 karma in this channel (128 overall)
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[cleverdevil] benwerd, random question, who is the primary person managing pull requests for Known?
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[cleverdevil] I'd like to help get aaronpk's latest pull request through the process ?
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[kevinmarks] Woodwind did scratch my reader itch, but it is showing its lack of sys admin
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[kevinmarks] So maybe the answer is a rethink and self-hosted
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[cleverdevil] FWIW, if the community can put together a well-integrated set of self-hosted components for publishing/reading/interacting, I can definitely work on getting it packaged into an one-click installable thing on DreamHost.
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[cleverdevil] I plan on working with manton on that for a Micro.blog compatible WordPress instance.
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[cleverdevil] It'd be good to have something that brought it *all* together. The complete picture.
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[chrisaldrich] benwerd: I've been itching to quit one or more of my day jobs to go all-in on indieweb for a while, but I'm glad that it's not a requirement. ?
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benwerd cleverdevil: right now mapkyca has been managing. I will return to managing it.
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[cleverdevil] Oh, cool ?
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benwerd (And yay, my website's back)
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Loqi ?
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[cleverdevil] \o/
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[chrisaldrich] benwerd++ Well what do you Know?!
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Loqi benwerd has 104 karma in this channel (129 overall)
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[cleverdevil] Indeed, that's genuinely awesome news. I recommended Known to my daughter's school board the other day as a potential platform for student/teacher/parent interaction.
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[cleverdevil] ❤
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[eddie] cleverdevil++ For the oneclick idea. One of the biggest hurtles I’ve been wondering about is, when we get the right tech together, how do we make it easy to install
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Loqi cleverdevil has 13 karma in this channel (15 overall)
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[cleverdevil] That's my number one goal. The community is actually doing a great job creating the building blocks. With a little bit more progress on that front, and some careful packaging and product work, I think it can be bundled together into a sort of "best practice" IndieWeb install.
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[kevinmarks] Do you offer other turnkey installs?
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[kevinmarks] Benwerd when you take Aaron's micropub pr and it gets to hosted known, let me know. Lots of micropub.rocks ☑ needed
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PFMurph [cleverdevil]: I agree, I'm looking forward to when everything gets to that point
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[cleverdevil] kevinmarks, we have a recommended WordPress installer, along with some others (phpBB, drupal, etc.), but honestly, WordPress is *dominant*.
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snarfed benwerd++ for bringing http://werd.io/ back!
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sknebel [cleverdevil]: an indieweb-friendly wordpress install sounds like not a bad starting point, if it can be done complete enough to not require much configuration afterwards (I don't know much about WP), and a tie-in with micro.blog could be good publicity ;)
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benwerd mapkyca++ for writing an excellent Mongo fix
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Loqi mapkyca has 6 karma in this channel (8 overall)
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[cleverdevil] sknebel: that's precisely my thinking.
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sknebel and according to /reader some people use WP with plugins as their reader as well, that's something many other lack right now (in a nicely integrated fashion)
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[cleverdevil] we will *definitely* have a WordPress install optimized to play nicely with Micro.blog.
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[cleverdevil] I'll try to sneak in as much IndieWeb tech as possible ?
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[cleverdevil] I'm currently using (and loving) the nextcloud news app.
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[cleverdevil] Self-hosted, attractive, easy to use, funcitonal.
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[cleverdevil] Its good stuff.
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[chrisaldrich] I just noticed that PressForward, the integrated WordPress RSS Reader I've been using is offering microgrants: http://pressforward.org/announcing-pressforward-microgrants/
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Loqi [Written by Stephanie Westcott,] Announcing PressForward Microgrants
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[chrisaldrich] $$ for improving an integrated reader
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[cleverdevil] Interesting.
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[cleverdevil] Still seems like its much more targeted to teams.
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[cleverdevil] Rather than personal content aggregation and personal publishing.
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gRegorLove Really interesting conversation this morning
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Loqi [indieweb] "Tweetstorms vs. Publishing" by Jonathan LaCour on 2017-03-29 https://cleverdevil.io/2017/tweetstorms-vs-publishing
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[chrisaldrich] cleverdevil, that seems like a brilliant opening for the following experimental indieweb PR /tweetstorm I'm about to unleash! ? At least I'll do it in better indieweb style for the contrast.
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech I've posted an article about Indieweb and Education on the #Indieweb wiki at https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Education (twitter.com/_/status/847145086412636166)
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech I've posted an article about Academic Samizdat on the #Indieweb wiki at https://indieweb.org/academic_samizdat (twitter.com/_/status/847145237046857728)
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech I've also posted an article about commonplace books on the #Indieweb wiki at https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book (twitter.com/_/status/847145311210536961)
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech I'm writing a multi-part series for academics on #Indieweb & Education based on these links. (twitter.com/_/status/847145420560224257)
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech Perhaps @profhacker might be interested in running such a series of articles? #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/847145517423509516)
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benwerd tantek: http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-april-5-2017
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club: April 5, 2017
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tantek benwerd++ thank yoU!
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Loqi benwerd has 105 karma in this channel (130 overall)
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tantek reloads werd.io
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tantek \o/
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tantek benwerd do you remember where we discussed / documented the historical problems with using the term "homesteading"?
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tantek I seem to remember you blogging about it, and I can't find it on our wiki
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tantek should probably try IRC search but hasn't yet gotten into the habit of it
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[eddie] I’m building reacji (although I prefer the term emoji reactions) into my webmention display. I haven’t pushed my webmention display to production yet, still testing it on my local machine. But if you all are interested in helping, please send a webmention to: http://eddiehinkle.com/article/2017/03/testing-emoji-reactions.html with one of the following emoji: ? ? ? ? ?
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Testing emoji reactions
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Loqi [indieweb] "Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/
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tantek eddie, blame Slack ;)
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[eddie] blame slack for the term reacji?
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tantek yes
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[eddie] Oh i didn’t realize they started it
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tantek pretty sure we have a citation for that on /reacji
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@ChrisAldrich #HigherEd #edTech In #Indieweb fashion, I've archived this tweetstorm using http://www.noterlive.com/ on my own site: http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/ (twitter.com/_/status/847146903439654919)
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[eddie] ohhh, when I read “feature by slack” i thought it was just the feature not the name
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[eddie] haha
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Loqi awesome
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tantek Salt++ for http://opensourcebridge.org/proposals/1962!
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Loqi salt has 6 karma
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Loqi [indieweb] "I’d really love to see someone from the #indieweb community working on a venture. matter.vc/apply" by Ryan Barrett https://snarfed.org/2017-03-29_id-really-love-to-see-someone-from-the-indieweb-community-working-on-a-venture-matter-vcapply-2
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tantek well technically benwerd is working on a "venture", the "v" in @MatterVC ;)
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tantek heheh "Activism". Salt, I think you meant "Practice" ;)
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snarfed heh nah *venture capital* isn't really the same as *venture*
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snarfed immediately regrets stepping into a pile of semantics
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tantek :successkid:
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dlowe I think indieauth has a bug that makes it unusable for stackoverflow. Should I just file a github issue?
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sknebel aaronpk ^^^
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tantek On another note, I think I've completely changed my photo posting flow
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dlowe Specifically, when using it for delegation, the response claims the same ID for the claimed identifer and the endpoint identifier
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tantek tl;dr: 1. take photo(s) when the moment calls for it, 2. quick checkin to Swarm (sticker only, no description/pix), 3. later at fastwifi: upload (edited) photo(s) to Swarm, 4. post photo post using Swarm width960 jpg for display, link to full 1920x1440 resolution & POSSE to FB, Flickr, Twitter, 5. optionally POSSE to IG, copy/pasting description incl permashortlink from the POSSE tweet.
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tantek 1,2,3,5 are all done on my iPod touch, 4 still requires using my laptop
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tantek but the net effect is much higher quality photo posts on my site, and less "in the moment" interruption
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tantek also IG still doesn't auto-link, so there's a permashortlink use-case right there (you have to retype links from IG)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by jbj" by jbj on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34246
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Blue Label Power" by Blue Label Power on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34247
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34248
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Crescerance" by Crescerance on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34249
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Crescerance" by Crescerance on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34250
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34251
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tantek wouldn't it be nicer to actually see the comment itself?
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tantek comments*
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Loqi [indieweb] "@cleverdevil If you're going to do a tweetstorm, then you should do it so that you still own all of the content at the end." by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/cleverdevil-if-youre-going-to-do-a-tweetstorm-then-you
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34252
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Tweetstorms, Journalism, and Noter Live: A Modest Proposal by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/02/10/tweetstorms-journalism-and-noter-live-a-modest-proposal/#comment-34253
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sknebel "X Liked Y on Twitter" isn't much of a helpful comment either... (and for some reason my IRC client has forgotten it's ignore-rule for those...)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Testing emoji reactions" http://eddiehinkle.com/article/2017/03/testing-emoji-reactions.html
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@jgmac1106 @ChrisAldrich Only if you get @mattervc and @benwerd to bring back remixable multimodal tools. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/847153408654163968)
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@jgmac1106 @ChrisAldrich more common then this is leaving pre-draft publications available for comment after publication More publishers okay #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/847153742512373767)
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snarfed [eddie]++ (...but no need to wait for us to send you wms, send some yourself from your own site!)
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Loqi eddie has 4 karma
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Salt tantek, that's the 102 talk that I haven't had time to finish... really wasn't sure what track to put it on tbh
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@jgmac1106 @ChrisAldrich just go look at the #ds106 hashtag and suck up most of the names. Its where the #indieweb lives in higher ed (twitter.com/_/status/847154672322461706)
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tantek Salt - was just glad to see it! :)
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Salt tantek, glad that such a thing exists! seriously, I don't know how indieweb escaped my gaze for so long, any ideas on IWS dates yet?
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tantek Salt, IWS dates kinda up in the air but input definitely welcome!
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Salt June 2-26 are roughly clear (there's something but IWS would win out), July 7-16 are also wide open at the moment for me.
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Salt early June was nice
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tantek ok that's enough input to start putting down dates and gathering +/-1s
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@jgmac1106 @benwerd @ChrisAldrich Would be an interesting post on the topic of how VC and #indieweb can, do, or can not exist within VC model (twitter.com/_/status/847157176481316866)
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Salt woah, just realized that OSB published the "speaking experience" section....
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aaronpk Those superfeedr pings about Wordpress comments are a great example of how rss isn't a great solution for the social web
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Salt goes to change all of them
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Salt tantek, excellent!
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Salt Also, hello all from FSF headquarters! Leaving today, but LibrePlanet has been great and would recommend.
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tantek Salt, LibrePlanet sounded particularly interesting this year
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Greg McVerry" by Greg McVerry on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34254
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tantek The quote from Cory about "my software freedom is intersectional" sounds amazing. would like to see/hear the whole dialog
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Greg McVerry" by Greg McVerry on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34255
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tantek aaronpk, I wonder if we can save RSS with some backcompat special treatment?
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Greg McVerry" by Greg McVerry on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34256
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tantek ponders RSS4.0.1 for Saturday
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Ben Werdmuller" by Ben Werdmuller on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34257
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Greg McVerry" by Greg McVerry on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34258
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tantek lol
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34259
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Kim" by Kim on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34260
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34261
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34262
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miklb run away loqi
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snarfed aaronpk: rss (etc) may be inferior to integrated read/write tools, but i don't buy that these superfeedr pings imply that. these are coming from a secondary feed of comments, which is not default and not the one readers usually subscribe to
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34263
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Greg McVerry" by Greg McVerry on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34264
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aaronpk oh my gosh
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34265
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snarfed (superfeedr is unusual in that it's promiscuous and follow every feed, and expects consumers to handle that)
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aaronpk well the problem is there's nothing in the feed that indicates these aren't regular bllog posts
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snarfed the feed itself indicates that
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by EDU bot/human hybrid" by EDU bot/human hybrid on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34266
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snarfed and using superfeedr to consume is an unusual path, hence the disconnect
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aaronpk using superfeedr *shouldn't* be an unusual path
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snarfed e.g. normal web readers would see something like http://boffosocko.com/blog/subscribe/ when they pick a feed
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tantek sees "nothing in the feed" and cracks open some angle brackets
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snarfed of course it's unusual, it's for developers, not users!
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aaronpk if i search twitter for "indieweb" i get pretty good results. superfeedr is the indieweb equivalent of that
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snarfed no way. twitter is an end user product. superfeedr is not.
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aaronpk my point is there's nothing in the data superfeedr gives me (or in the source material for that matter) that distinguishes a comment from a post
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snarfed agreed! or at least, if there is, it's probably somewhat hidden and requires CMS-specific heuristics.
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snarfed i just don't follow the leap that therefore RSS/Atom are bad building blocks
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snarfed (it may still be true! i just disagree that this is evidence :P)
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tantek RSS is a poor building block for this for lack of sufficient places to put information for such use-cases
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tantek Atom is a poor building block because XML fragility, XML namespaces, artificial precision requirements on datetime stamps, etc. etc.
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I'm working on that fixing those comment pings, but IRC here is one of the few (only?) places that consumes them...
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tantek not sure if that's sufficient "evidence" but wanted to at least provide some of the challenges/reasoning so far
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aaronpk i mean i could just blacklist any post that begins with "Comment on", but that's an ugly hack
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tantek flip it around, what is the desired signal-worthy behavior?
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aaronpk i want notifications of new posts that match "indieweb"
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miklb is there not anything in the mf2 to signify it's a comment vs a entry?
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aaronpk it's not using mf2, this is from the RSS feed via superfeedr
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miklb oh, gotcha
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tantek aaronpk, by "posts" do you include reply posts?
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aaronpk another solution would be treat the superfeedr ping as just a notification of the post URL, then go fetch the post my self and parse the mf2 from it. that would make it obvious when a URL is a comment or not
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snarfed superfeedr kind of assumes and implies that all items in feeds it consumes are "posts," more or less that's not true of all feeds, e.g. these, which most wordpress blogs have. that's the key disconnect here.
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snarfed s/more or less/more or less./
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aaronpk snarfed: right, but still the XML feed doesn't have any indication this is a comment feed
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tantek aaronpk "treat the superfeedr ping as just a notification of the post URL" so what you're saying is...
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tantek fatpings--
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Loqi fatpings has -3 karma
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snarfed true!
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Loqi [indieweb] "Comment on Indieweb and Education Tweetstorm by Chris Aldrich" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://boffosocko.com/2017/03/29/indieweb-and-education-tweetstorm/#comment-34267
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@ChrisAldrich @jgmac1106 Are you on the wiki? Could you add yourself to the list of examples at https://indieweb.org/Indieweb_for_Education (twitter.com/_/status/847162155887669248)
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gRegorLove Hey Salt. I'm meeting Mary at the makerspace tomorrow or Friday to talk details / hopefully get the venue settled.
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gRegorLove I was a bit discouraged by her initial response, but she made it sound like there might be more availability upstairs.
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Salt gRegorLove, great! I'm about to head for the airport but look forward to connecting.
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gRegorLove Safe travels!
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Salt wonderful, that response was a bit ugh
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Salt lemme know if there's anything I can do on this end
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Salt o/
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sknebel the post url is a bit of an issue there too, since you have to use the fragment to find the actual post. doable, but unusual?
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dlowe hah. I guess I will just post a github issue on indieauth.
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dgold ok - i'm trying wp again - I've installed the indieweb plugin, and the recommended plugins including micropub
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sknebel whops, that got lost. aaronpk, indieauth issue ^^^
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dgold but quill gets an "invalid access token: " error
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tantek dgold, please document your experience with that process of WP plus indieweb/recommended plugings - I know GWG for one is interested in the feedback
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dgold will do tantek
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dgold I've been taking notes!
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tantek dgold++ !
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Loqi dgold has 8 karma in this channel (10 overall)
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tantek Salt and everyone else - possible IWS June dates now on https://indieweb.org/Planning#Summit - please edit and add your +/- 1/0 !
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tantek let's see if we get an obvious clustering or not
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[eddie] Is there anything different about Summit than other IndieWebCamps?
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tantek eddie that's a great FAQ
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tantek let's see if we documented it last year (the first IWS)
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[cleverdevil] Hmm, I'm sort of digging on aaronpk's "food and drink" catalogging... it'd be nice if I could do that on my Known site.
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[cleverdevil] I may just create another plugin!
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tantek besides the fact that we only have one IWS a year
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tantek !tell GWG if you could help upgrade a major open source conference's WordPress to support IndieWeb really well, what would you request/do? Perhaps you could take a look at https://github.com/osbridge/osbp_wordpress and see what pull requests you could suggest!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[kevinmarks] Could Chris put mf2 into his comments feed, so the fat pings were marked up as comments?
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[kevinmarks] Also, is this another fragment issue?
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GWG As ft
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: if you could help upgrade a major open source conference's WordPress to support IndieWeb really well, what would you request/do? Perhaps you could take a look at https://github.com/osbridge/osbp_wordpress and see what pull requests you could suggest!
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GWG Afternoon
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GWG I read up re the comment feed
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[chrisaldrich] Afternoon GWG
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GWG I looked at how to change the comment feed template to be Webmention and such aware
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GWG The question is, what would go in there to indicate it isn't a post feed?
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GWG I am not versed in the subtleties of the RSS spec
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GWG But I just thought Chrisaldrich was popular and that was why his commenters always posted in here
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[chrisaldrich] In practice, does anyone actually subscribe to RSS feeds of comment streams?
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GWG Chrisaldrich, I don't. but you never know
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[chrisaldrich] Those posts occur when someone comments on one of my posts/pages that includes the word/tag "Indieweb"
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[chrisaldrich] Their comment doesn't necessarily have to include Indieweb (or any of Loqis other "trigger words")
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GWG But the comment was that the feed doesn't indicate that it is a comment feed, so that we could do if someone knows how to indicate that
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tantek you could likely tell by URL heuristics
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GWG tantek, I was thinking feed markup
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tantek you know, if it happened to have a fragment that started with "#comment" - just saying ;)
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[chrisaldrich] Presumably if someone was commenting on a post using their own site, it could be responsible for doing a ping here into IRC and my site wouldn't need to be responsible for it.
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tantek chrisaldrich are the comments on your site themselves marked up with h-entry?
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[chrisaldrich] AFAIK, my site is the only one which does this...
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GWG I am quiet
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[chrisaldrich] I had played around with that ages ago, deployed it, removed it and re-deployed, but it's had conflicts with other plugins in the last 6 months. I'd honestly have to dig back in to see where I left it and two other related issues.
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[kevinmarks] my point is that feeds contain html, so you could put markup in them, though the title generation is poor http://boffosocko.com/comments/feed/
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[kevinmarks] http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fboffosocko.com%2Fcomments%2Ffeed%2F
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[chrisaldrich] KevinMarks, I'm pretty sure the comments/feed is whatever out of the box stock was for WP and I've not played around with it. You're right that that feed is simply dreadful to look at.
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[kevinmarks] it looks like trackbacks?
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: was that sarcasm? does yours do it too as a "feature" of wordpress core?
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GWG Was what sarcasm?
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[kevinmarks] I'm This Week in Google shortly - send me thing to talk baout
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GWG But we can enhance the feed, which is what I would like to try
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[chrisaldrich] Even if it were prettier, I thin it would still have wonkier issues to fix like removing reactions along the lines of "X liked this on twitter/instagram/etc." as the result of backfeed, because who really wants to consume those?
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: you saying you were quiet...
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GWG Oh, I was referring to the fact that you post more than I do
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GWG I should post more
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Loqi I agree
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: I think that in addition to that, revisiting your comment walker (did miklb say he had one too?) as a stock feature for likes/reposts in comments would be useful.
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GWG I plan to revisit it
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miklb [chrisaldrich] not a custom walker, but I used a built in function in sem linkbacks & a custom Comment query https://gist.github.com/miklb/4ba5ea34dc7ad8031afea9414d477bce
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Loqi [indieweb] "Testing to see if a comment on an IndieWeb post to GWG will cause his site to ping Loqi in IRC" by Chris Aldrich on 2017-03-29 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/testing-to-see-if-a-comment-on-an-indieweb-post
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GWG My proposal was to build stock functionality into the plugin that can be either called by a theme or override the theme
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miklb I had originally written my own query for the likes/reposts then found the semantic linkback function
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GWG miklb, I have been working on Webmentions, but I have a bunch of Ideas for Semantic Linkbacks.
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miklb might I suggest a longer beta testing period on any new code ;-)
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GWG miklb, pfefferle approves my edits on those plugins
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[chrisaldrich] I had tried to get Raam to do something better in Independent Publisher, but he went a tad more literal, though I think his comment output on that theme still has a few subtle bugs with regard to webmentions and display.
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tantek what is Independent Publisher?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Independent Publisher" yet. Would you like to create it?
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GWG I have a pending one to move Webmention source from the author url field to meta. That is a prerequisite to put more authorship support into Webmentions
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[chrisaldrich] Independent Publisher is a WordPress(.org) theme that is Indieweb friendly.
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Loqi ok
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[cleverdevil] Interesting, The Deck is shutting down - https://cleverdevil.io/2017/the-deck-is-shutting-down
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[cleverdevil] (Some IndieWeb related topics in there)
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Loqi [Jonathan LaCour] The Deck is Shutting Down 1 min read Innovative ad network The Deck is shutting down for good. From their announcement: In 2014, display advertisers started concentrating o...
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GWG I think sometimes I give pfefferle PR fatigue
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tantek cleverdevil that's not a good sign
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tantek what is The Deck
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "The Deck" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek (worthy of documenting)
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miklb tantek I took a quick look at that osbridge WP theme, and the functions they built that theme with do some funky stuff with body classes. Doesn't seem trivial to add mf2 support
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miklb "hentry for hAtom compliace"
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Site updates: /mentions page and notifications" https://martymcgui.re/2017/03/29/161441/
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gRegorLove What is Sempress?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Sempress" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove [chrisaldrich], GWG ^^
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[kevinmarks] feed me indieweb things to mention
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tantek As we wait for the Micropub Proposed Recommendation, the # of implementations keeps growing
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[chrisaldrich] kevinmarks: I don't think he's covered web annotations on TWiG https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/6156 good opportunity to get into other indieweb topics including fragmention/webmentions, annotations that send webmentions...
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tantek chrisaldrich - you don't think W3C Annotations have been hyped enough?
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tantek (for something which AFAIK has *one* running implementation in the wild - hypothesis)
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tantek one *server* implementation as it were, and it doesn't even support the protocol (has its own proprietary APIs)
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snarfed tantek: honest q: is it a running implementation if it doesn't support the protocol?
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snarfed is confused
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I was think of plausible ins for indieweb given that particular audience.
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tantek snarfed - supposedly it supports the "data model"
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tantek there are 3 recommendations, so you can claim to be an implementation even if you only do one I guess
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snarfed lol ok
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tantek chrisaldrich - I'd be interested to know why you think w3c annotations are plausibly indieweb by any practical measure since they are bottlenecked in practice by a single server implementation
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[chrisaldrich] Most of TWiG is 99% conversation around silos, I'd like to see that change
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tantek I see it as purely prototype work at this point, nothing to actually build on, as anything with just one server implementation should be considered
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tantek chrisaldrich - hypothesis IS a silo
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tantek also, there's such bad history in the space of web annotations (lots of startups and large co's like Google launching stuff and killing it / dying)
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I know, but it's a silo they don't talk about often, and it's an *in* to indieweb tech that folks like Kevin and Kartik have implemented.
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tantek that it seems foolish to bring up an example which is yet again, only a single server/service
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tantek chrisaldrich, the indieweb tech that Kevin and Kartik is worthy on its won
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tantek its *own
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tantek and does not need an *in* of a silo prototype
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martymcguire[m] maybe the conversational flow could be "w3c annotations are a supposedly thing, but there are no implementations. unlike these great IndieWeb technologies, check them out!"
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martymcguire[m] but tantek brings up a good point :}
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tantek I think even just bringing up w3c annotations as a talking point erodes the speaker's credibility due to the history of failure in the space
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[chrisaldrich] The W3C rec was interesting news. Some of it is about helping to control or direct the conversation... (preferrably away from /silos). I'm totally on your side tantek. I was also trying to provide a suggestion among the crickets. ?
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tantek when there is a live implementation in use of the protocol that'll be interesting to take a look at. when there are *multiple* live implementations, that will be interesting news
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tantek chrisaldrich absolutely not about w3c rec being news on its own
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[chrisaldrich] Given the audience of developers and thinkers it could help move a space from failure to possible success.
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tantek if anything, pointing to w3c recs without live implementations in use shows an anti-pattern
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tantek the only thing "interesting" about that is that w3c still manages to somehow publish RECs without real world implementations in actual use
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tantek which doesn't help anyone in that conversation, including W3C's reputation.
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[chrisaldrich] I was just trying to provide a hook for conversation. I trust Kevin to know where to take it.
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tantek chrisaldrich it could have been if there wasn't a history of failure in that space, that's the problem
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tantek hooks with that much baggage are to be avoided
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tantek or rather, serve more as a distraction than an hook to what you want to talk about
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[chrisaldrich] tantek: I concede your point.... Though I'll point out that we've got actual implementations versus a larger group that doesn't
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tantek better to lead with the stronger foot! we've got actual implementations!
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tantek the fact that there's large groups hyping things is not news (so much of that in the tech space that I think people are tired of hearing about it)
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[kevinmarks] i mentioned http://known.kevinmarks.com/2017/day-7-to-amp-or-not-to-amp-100daysofindieweb
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] Day 7: To AMP or not to AMP? #100DaysOfIndieWeb
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[chrisaldrich] kevinmarks: I'm surprised it didn't take Jeff into a broader AMP discussion/update
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tantek indeed
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[kevinmarks] well, I did a bit, but jeff has covered it alot
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[chrisaldrich] it seems to be a topic that gets delved into pretty heavily every couple of months there. It's been a while...
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[chrisaldrich] KevinMarks: for your tool/tip of the week at the close, and the prior location/checkins convo, perhaps aaronpk's /OwnYourSwarm with micropub or is it a tad too early?
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tantek yeah OwnYourSwarm is definitely worthy!!!
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[chrisaldrich] KevinMarks: One can spy on Congress with even small things like https://twitter.com/congressedits which puts some of the privacy portion back in the other direction.
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[kevinmarks] I was going to mention #100daysofindieweb in general
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tantek martymcguire++ for https://martymcgui.re/2017/03/29/161441/ !
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Loqi martymcguire has 12 karma in this channel (14 overall)
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Loqi [Marty McGuire] Site updates: /mentions page and notifications
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tantek notifications are quite the challenge - and a key part of doing (some) of the /SWAT0 roles
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tantek aside: this is so weird, I've fully switched to manually POSSEing a subset of my photos to IG (from using IG as a photo posting client)
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tantek Swarm is now my photo posting client.
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[kevinmarks] tried connecting ownyourswarm to silo.pub twitter, didn't seem to work
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tantek well that's a clever idea
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[aaronpk] I'd need to create a good fallback "summary" for OwnYourSwarm posts for that to work
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tantek aaronpk - why not document how Swarm does its cross-posting to Twitter and just copy the verbiage?
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tantek as they say, solved problem :)
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[aaronpk] Sure
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[aaronpk] It just doesn't send summary at all right now
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tantek in case anyone is curious I documented my current photo posting flow: https://indieweb.org/Falcon#higher_resolution_photo_posts
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tantek I'm pretty convinced that I hate all the UIs that encourage you to take time away from whatever it is you are doing IRL to bother with filtering/editing/posting photos right after ("insta") you take them
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tantek I'm going to try that for a week and see if it sticks / gets easier or tedious before documenting it further
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[kevinmarks] I suspect you might need to jsonify silo.pub too
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gRegorLove tantek: Why only a subset to IG?
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tantek gRegorLove: cultural for that silo
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tantek there was a recent article about that
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tantek wow news searches for IG are hilarious
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tantek gRegorLove: I couldn't find the article I found earlier but this is close: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/instagram-takes-aim-at-snapchat-with-this-new-feature/
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tantek basically in the context of the launch of the Stories feature, there was an explicit recognition that the culture of posting in IG has turned into extreme self-curation, with a tacit expectation of not posting a lot of photos to IG per day
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tantek only the best one per day, or maybe a few if they're just too good
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tantek doesn't seem to be a problem on FB, Flickr, Twitter though - posting many photos that is
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tantek also note this quote:
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tantek "People are very fickle," Ackerman said. "They move from one service to another. Twitter started as the big guy and people got scared off from Twitter."
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tantek questioning the accepted assumption of silo lock-in
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tantek not sure where to document that
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snarfed tantek: so do you now have to checkin on swarm every time you post a photo? do you ever want to post photos without also checking in somewhere?
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tantek snarfed, we'll find out in a week!
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tantek I already have a habit of checking in so it's not really much of a change?
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tantek checkin on swarm not every time I post a photo but rather: checkin on swarm every time I *take* a photo
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gRegorLove Interesting. I'm not a heavy IG user, but I'm not sure I noticed a difference in people's posting frequency after they added stories.
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tantek gRegorLove: not sure what you mean - no difference was implied
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gRegorLove "there was an explicit recognition that the culture of posting in IG has turned into extreme self-curation, with a tacit expectation of not posting a lot of photos to IG per day"
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tantek but rather, Stories were introduced to get people to post *something* more often (to Stories, since they were not posting as often to their normal feeds)
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gRegorLove I read "tacit expectation of not posting a lot of photos to IG per day" as people's use of regular IG photos changing.
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tantek it already did change, that's the point
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tantek Stories being introduced as a feature was a *reaction* to that somewhat
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gRegorLove I just thought it was them wanting to be Snapchat
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gRegorLove It's rather clunky imo. Though I enjoy seeing some of them, when they work.
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tantek nah - Snapchat is its own weird thing
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tantek what's hilarious now is that both IG and FB Messenger have "Stories"
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gRegorLove Sure, but IG Stories is a blatant ripoff.
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tantek companies ripoff features all the time, not sure why that's a big deal?
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[kevinmarks] Fb messenger is so cluttered with strategy tax now it's hard to work out how to send a message
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tantek hah so true
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gRegorLove Just supporing my comment "wanting to be Snapchat"
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tantek copying one feature is not "wanting to be" frankly
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tantek that's typical in every market, e.g. car companies copy features from each other
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tantek it doesn't mean they want to be each other
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[kevinmarks] Snapchat has loads of features but you wouldn't know it as the only place they're documented is in their S1. Their ux is communicated by oral tradition.
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gRegorLove S1?
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[kevinmarks] Facebook builds actual affordances for their features, which is why they look cluttered
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[kevinmarks] The SEC document for their IPO
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[kevinmarks] aaron, the silo.pub error is "error": "Bad Upstream Response",
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[kevinmarks] "code": 170, "message": "Missing required parameter: status." - so yes, no p-name
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