#indieweb

2015-07-22

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KartikPrabhu
new 404 page :P https://kartikprabhu.com/feed
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cweiske
I just read in tantek__'s indieweb 2014 review about edits. It seems that nobody has implemented it yet.
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cweiske
an issue that came into my mind: if what do you diff? the HTML?
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cweiske
what if one uses rST or markdown as base that gets rendered to html?
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cweiske
a diff to the HTML would not help much
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cweiske
and probably couldn't be merged automatically
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: always good to diff the rendered HTML
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KartikPrabhu
i think
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cweiske
the rendered html may be minified to 1 line
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cweiske
a diff on it is ...hard
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KartikPrabhu
hmm then I don't really know
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cweiske
and I don't know how that would help with my "merge with a single click" issue
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KartikPrabhu
yeah /edit seems non-trivial
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gregorlove.com
edited /ProcessWire (+332) "Webmention plugin" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: how about comparing microformats properties?
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gRegorLove
Released my ProcessWire webmention code! The core sending/receiving/processing is pretty stable, but I'm still developing /Vouch support as well as an admin interface to view/approve incoming webmentions, so I'm considering it "beta" for now.
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gRegorLove
I'll work on the readme tomorrow and share it with the ProcessWire community. Maybe we'll attract some new indieweb fans.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove++ for new CMS webmention support
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 22 karma
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voxpelli
cweiske: I think diffing of individual mf-properties would be a bit too hard – rather just do edits as replacement of individual properties
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voxpelli
!tell KartikPrabhu If you have realtime updates of WebMentions then all you really need to do to deliver feedback is to have the submit happen over Ajax – the update will come back when it's ready, which might take a while
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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raw-text.io
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+322) "/* Maybes */" (view diff)
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@moellus
The rise of the IndieWeb | notizBlog http://notizblog.org/2013/06/18/the-rise-of-the-indieweb/ /via @pfefferle (2013) #posse (twtr.io/11todGSwX0G)
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@Aodunaderasheed
RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #poetrycollection love pain rejection melancholy selfactualization hope dreams aspirations indieauth http:/… (twtr.io/11tx24LwvKU)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Post-by-email * uploaded "[[File:20150722-112217.jpg]]": Uploaded via email by ICIP Conference 2015 <vit.ieee.conference*@*t.edu>
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LanceyWork
has there been a discussion about how to handle shares with captions, such as tumblr reblogs or quoted retweets?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tumblr is mentions on /repost
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i don't think this has been completely discussed yet LanceyWork
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LanceyWork
i guess there's not really a lot to discuss
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ben_thatmustbeme
it seems like /repost is for the entire body with no commentary and /quotation is for only part of the body but with commentary
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LanceyWork
should they be distinct?
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is nothing of the entire body with commentary
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ben_thatmustbeme
Twitter keeps them seperate, correct?
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ben_thatmustbeme
weird, so with twitter its UI is repost, but adding commentary, but then it doesn't note it as a "retweet" on the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme
it doesn't look like you can see quote tweets at all
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LanceyWork
twitter keeps them separate, i think tumblr keeps them the same?
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ben_thatmustbeme
d/at all/at all from the original post
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ben_thatmustbeme
i would say that either could work, but we should probably work out which way is better
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think the distinction is really the focus of the post
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LanceyWork
i can't even find out how to get the quoted tweet from the api
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ben_thatmustbeme
do you want to focus on the original content (repost) or is your content primary with the original content just being part of it
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ben_thatmustbeme
LanceyWork: trial an error i guess
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ben_thatmustbeme
if you figure it out, do share
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LanceyWork
ok, i'll poke around and see what i can dig up
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LanceyWork
https://twittercommunity.com/t/api-payloads-to-include-original-quoted-tweet-objects/38184
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LanceyWork
looks like they're either working on it, or have added it
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LanceyWork
yeah, it's already in
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LanceyWork
you can get the quoted tweet with "quoted_status_id"
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LanceyWork
or "quoted_status"
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LanceyWork
it looks like a quotation is intended to be different from a repost/share
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GWG
pfefferle: When you have a minute, I was hoping you could explain the organization.
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LanceyWork
ben_thatmustbeme, i'm using one of your tweets as an example of quoting a tweet
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ben_thatmustbeme
no problem
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pfefferle
GWG not really :)
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Loqi
pfefferle: snarfed left you a message 2 days, 10 hours ago: hi! looks like your semantic-linkbacks repos have diverged, and each one has useful new features (filters vs salmentions). mind picking one to be the single canonical repo, and then merge them? thanks in advance! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-19/line/1437355029097
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GWG
pfefferle: Don't really have the moment, or you can't explain what you have in mind?
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pfefferle
GWG I mean I can’t explain it ;)
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GWG
pfefferle: Umm...okay.
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pfefferle
!tell snarfed is the salmentations stuff functional? but you are true, we should merge them
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle
GWG thought it might be a good idea to upload some stuff/examples/hacks...
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Lancey.space * uploaded "[[File:quoted tweet example.png]]": An example of a [[quotation]] on [[Twitter]]. The quoted tweet is embedded in the status update rather than being the main focus, and the user can provide an additional caption, making it different from a retweet.
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lancey.space
edited /quotation (+313) "/* Silo Examples */ Added Twitter's implementation of quoting tweets" (view diff)
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GWG
pfefferle: Okay. Will let you upload first. Wasn't sure what you had in mind.
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pfefferle
!tell snarfed the code seems very hacky with a lot of debug logs
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle
GWG nothing special… upload what you think is ok, or ignore it ;)
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GWG
pfefferle: I have a coding standards issue to resolve first... https://travis-ci.org/dshanske/
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pfefferle
;)
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GWG
snarfed put me down the unit test path, I found testing for WordPress Coding Standards at the same time. I failed.
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pfefferle
GWG I started using the WordPress coding standard a while ago
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pfefferle
GWG porting plugins is very time heavy ;)
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pfefferle
GWG but there are a lot of good editor plugins to check the code every new save
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GWG
pfefferle: I know. But I figured, rather than you and snarfed telling me I put the wrong spacing or style, I figured I'd let an automated tester tell me
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GWG
Also sets up for those unit tests that snarfed was encouraging for Micropub.
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GWG
I started to set up all my projects to run them
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Loqi
slack/cdevroe: benwerd: Congrats on the Known push.
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Loqi
slack/cdevroe: gregorlove: Can you update your Twitter list with voxpelli’s list? <https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/a1066bfd0da75fb79c06>
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cdevroe
All that effort to get into Slack and I'm now finding it pretty difficult to "catch" up when I pop in in the morning. How do all of you "catch up"?
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cdevroe
(Slack doesn't do a great job of keeping your marker, for some reason. I've sent them bug reports about it but I haven't seen any changes.)
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GWG
cdevroe: I skim the log
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GWG
indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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cdevroe
KevinMarks++ for the I <? PHP tweet
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 134 karma
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cdevroe
GWG++ thanks
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Loqi
GWG has 111 karma
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rhiaro.co.uk
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+102) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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cdevroe
GWG speaking to some locals here, we have a hookup to do a IWC in a trolley while it is moving from place to place. ;-)
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cdevroe
I'm thinking of switching from Safari to Firefox today. My only wish was that Firefox was "more of a Mac app" and played nicer on OS X. E.g. Dictionary look ups on words, etc.
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LanceyWork
could you build your own plugin to do that?
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cdevroe
LanceyWork: Unsure.
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cdevroe
I also wouldn't mind a copy of Firefox without Hello in it.
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cdevroe
Very odd to me that Firefox is becoming the bloatware that it once was built to replace.
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cdevroe
Being able to move a few years worth of History would be nice too. I'll have to look to see if there is an Add-on for that.
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petermolnar
good afternoon everyone
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cdevroe
hola petermolnar
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petermolnar
WordPress users: I could not sleep yesterday, so I wrote an audioscrobbler receiver ( server ) WordPress plugin in order to get rid of Last.fm in the future
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petermolnar
if anyone is interested: https://github.com/petermolnar/audioscrobbler
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cdevroe
!tell aaronpk Your site's feeds are not discoverable by Feedly. FYI.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
cdevroe, he doesn't have any
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cdevroe
cweiske: really? I think I'm subscribed to his articles. But I was looking to subscribe to everything else too.
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cweiske
I was, too
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cweiske
articles.atom
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cweiske
the file is not there anymore
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cdevroe
cweiske: :(
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cweiske
I suggested he uses the hfeed2atom proxy now, but didn't do yet
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GWG
cdevroe: I used to operate trolleys at the Shoreline Trolley Museum. I'll Drive
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GWG
petermolnar: I will have a look
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GWG
I couldn't sleep so I configured Travis CI
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cdevroe
GWG: That would be awesome.
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petermolnar.eu
edited /scrobble (+460) "wordpress audioscrobbler" (view diff)
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@jihaisse
#indieweb https://twitter.com/pcouzon/status/623610855368839168 (twtr.io/11uDQA76dHb)
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cdevroe
erinjo++ for shipping Known 0.8
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Loqi
erinjo has 11 karma
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cdevroe
benward++ for shipping known 0.8
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Loqi
benward has 4 karma
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rhiaro
s/benward/benwerd
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Loqi
[bridgy] Oscar Andreasson RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/1456574994667067#10152927768624765)
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cdevroe
The IWC chat log is very nice. Who put it together?
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cweiske
aaronpk, IIRC
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cdevroe
aaronpk++ for the web chat log. It is great
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Loqi
aaronpk has 902 karma
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Loqi
[bridgy] Azin Oujani RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/1455747814748163#921581031231424)
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cdevroe
Wow! Firefox has a way to import Safari's history built right in. I hope this works because that would be amazing.
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cdevroe
I think it may be worth me finding a way to back up my web viewing history at some point.
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lancey.space
edited /repost (+16) "/* See Also */ Added [[quotation]] as a see also page" (view diff)
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LanceyWork
has anyone thought about an infobox or other template on the wiki that we can apply to post type pages that displays general information such as the microformats syntax or silos that implement it?
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cdevroe
It worked! (re: firefox import)
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LanceyWork
:D
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LanceyWork
firefox++
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Loqi
firefox has 1 karma
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cdevroe
LanceyWork: Hah! I didn't know that would work.
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cdevroe
Firefox++
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Loqi
Firefox has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats all?
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ben_thatmustbeme
firefox++
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Loqi
firefox has 3 karma
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@tinokremer
Dat is een handige #importer van social media naar je eigen site: http://www.freedom.io/ #indieweb (twtr.io/11uNUxXM6h9)
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Jeena
firefox++
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Loqi
Jeena: KartikPrabhu left you a message 11 hours, 24 minutes ago: hfeed2atom updated with installation and usage instructions https://github.com/kartikprabhu/hfeed2atom http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-21/line/1437537673446
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Loqi
firefox has 4 karma
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@mapkyca
A @withknown patch to add SQLite3 support https://github.com/idno/Known/pull/980 #indieweb (twtr.io/11uQCKwodg4)
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kylewm
mapkyca++
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Loqi
mapkyca has 1 karma
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kylewm
that is an amazing PR!
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Jeena
!tell KartikPrabhu neat! I guess I have to do something with my notes markup so the title gets better recognized
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mapkyca
kylewm: Thanks :)
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kongaloosh.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (-352) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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kongaloosh.com
edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+352) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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Kongaloosh
rhiaro: moved mysef. Gutted I can't be there!
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rhiaro
me too Kongaloosh, you've made so much awesome progress on your site
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Kongaloosh
Gee, thanks! :3
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Kongaloosh
I did break micropub, so I'm in the process of fixing that.
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Kongaloosh
I really like having stuff in one place
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rhiaro
Kongaloosh: I break micropub all the time :)
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rhiaro
Currently my endpoint is not cooperating with teacup and I have no idea why
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronparecki.com * deleted "[[File:20150722-112217.jpg]]": Spam
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Jeena
!tell KartikPrabhu it seems that it doesn't follow u-url links to the full article in a feed?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
or am I marking it up wrongly with a u-url within the h-entry?
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aaronpk
oh the upload stopped because the computer went to sleep. shortly there will be a video up of the whole IWC demos!
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Loqi
aaronpk: cdevroe left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: Your site's feeds are not discoverable by Feedly. FYI. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437569759494
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tantek
!tell KartikPrabhu cont'd from last night re: comments box: the idea is that every "native" blog comment box turns into a simple indie reply authoring micropub client, so you can write a comment inline when viewing a post on someone's site, have it post to your site, then show up right there on the page you're viewing.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli
tantek: would the micropub client live in the browser then?
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tantek
!tell cweiske thanks for the heads-up re: /edit - only publishing example(s) so far. updated my post reference to /edit with a parenthetical note accordingly (like person-tag in 2014)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
voxpelli: oh that's a possibility too - was thinking the server you're viewing could be a micropub client that you give permissions to *only* post reply posts to your own site.
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voxpelli
tantek: rather cumbersome to do the indieauth dance on each and every blog one wants to comment on :/ I will probably just set up indie-config to point to a reply form in Quill
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kongaloosh.com
edited /IRC_People (+103) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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bear
it could be like subtome - if js is enabled it's a box that allows content input and uses your local store config to post micropub; if js not enabled it's a redirect to a service to enable comments
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tantek
voxpelli: agreed
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tantek
indie-config is a more elegant solution
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tantek
s/elegant/user-friendly
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bear
what is indie-config
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: indie-config is a more user-friendly solution
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Loqi
indie-config is a method of using protocol handlers and postmessage to setup your indie website to both notify the browser that it can handle webactions and then do so https://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config
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voxpelli
one could build an indie-config that has the config stored in localstorage if one wants it to work like subtome :)
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bear
I like the sound of indie-config
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bear
ah - but it requires javascript
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ben_thatmustbeme
also note mp-config which does not depend on url registration, but does require you say your url
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tantek
voxpelli: another possibility - can we use iframes to do indie-config cross-site for a commenting UI?
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ben_thatmustbeme
popping in
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cdevroe
bear: Looking at what this does I wouldn't say it _has_ to support JS. But it looks like it is currently implemented that way.
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cdevroe
Likely could be handled using POST requests if needed. With a callback to go back to the origin site.
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voxpelli
tantek: maybe, but a bit hesitent about phishing and mobile friendlyness – generaly on mobile reply forms are always a new page
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cdevroe
voxpelli: iframes? shudder
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cdevroe
Ooops.
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cdevroe
tantek: I meant.
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tantek
thinking the site showing you the post, just as it shows you webaction buttons, it could show you a cross-site iframe onto *Your* site for posting a reply
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kongaloosh.com
created /User:Kongaloosh.com (+154) "Created page with "= Kongaloosh = {{Kongaloosh}} == Background == Currently working on [http://kongaloosh.com link Kongaloosh]. === Doing (main itches) === === Todo ==="" (view diff)
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cdevroe
The "form" elements could simply post to a known endpoint on your site.
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tantek
that iframe would then have the text box and "post" button to post the reply
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cdevroe
domainname.com/webactionendpoint
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kongaloosh.com
edited /User:Kongaloosh.com (-5) "/* Background */" (view diff)
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cdevroe
with a parameter for a "return URL"
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cdevroe
If JS doesn't exist.
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tantek
cdevroe - that would basically be the micropub solution I was mentioning before
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tantek
because then you need to do the whole auth dance to make sure it's ok to accept the form request
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cdevroe
tantek: Yeah.
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, but if you're not logged in to your site you may have to log in before and since it's an iframe you're not sure if the form you're seeing is being proxied through a phishing site or something :/
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KevinMarks
so where would it get the micropub token?
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tantek
voxpelli: no - it would only show up if you're already logged into your site
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tantek
which is still A LOT less work than having to login to EVERY SITE you want to comment on
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tantek
if you're not logged into your site, then all you see is the "Reply" button
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KevinMarks
the iframe would have cookies from your site already
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KevinMarks
I see
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tantek
clicking that activates the whole flow
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, I guess one could make it safe, so it could be a possible evolution
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voxpelli
I wonder though how often silos have response forms inline versus on a separate page – especially on mobile
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cdevroe
Could do a time limited cookie that does a round trip from your personal domain to the site you're trying to comment on to create a cookie there. So... if you're not logged in: 1) click reply, 2) takes a trip to your personal domain, sets temp cookie 3) reroutes back to origin domain endpoint, sets temp cookie 4) write reply, click send 5) posts variables to personal site, saves
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voxpelli
I'm not sure inline is needed
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cdevroe
Only if the cookie hasn't yet expired.
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cdevroe
This way you have two cookies.
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cdevroe
Sort of like OAuth, I guess.
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cdevroe
token === token
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cdevroe
Tell me to hush if I'm way off.
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voxpelli
cdevroe: how indie-config currently works: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/10/1/webactions So it's mostly there, question is just if one could get it inlined easily I think
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tantek
voxpelli: advantage of inline iframe with text box is that it can be used to mimic existing "native" comment box UI
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Thanks for the context. I'd love to somehow help with this effort.
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Because that workflow is obviously less than ideal.
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KevinMarks
well, disqus and fb comments both use iframes afaik
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KevinMarks
so not outrageous to do that
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tantek
voxpelli, cdevroe getting "reply" user-flow as *easy* as possible, and at least as good as what silos do is *key* to making indie web interactions work well enough for people to actively switch.
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tantek
KevinMarks, precisely
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voxpelli
tantek: I'm thinking that eg. Twitter clients often do it on their own page, so that maybe one can get a "native" without it
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: true, hmm
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cdevroe
voxpelli: Discuss it. Twitter et. al typically "open a window" with their domain.
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cdevroe
*Disqus does it
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cdevroe
Autocorrect!
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voxpelli
main addition for both separate and iframed incie-config would be to specify a return URL – so the including page knows when the flow is done
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voxpelli
then it would mostly be a matter of responsive webdesign to adapt the page to fit within an iframe – and perhaps to set some expectations around the size of the iframe?
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KevinMarks
the including page should get a webmention to know it is done?
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cdevroe
voxpelli: It is possible to do stuff with XSS. S3 does it.
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: well, in the case of navigating to a full page the original page will have been closed
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voxpelli
and webmentions can have quite some latency
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voxpelli
eg. if my webmention endpoint gets flooded with mentions of the same domain I start throttling lookups
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cdevroe
away for lunch... I'll be following along with this.
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voxpelli
I correct myself regarding Twitter UI:s – apparently it's just Tweetbot that does it on a separate page
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tantek
voxpelli: makes sense - can you document what you're seeing in the Twitter App UIs? screenshots of the user flow?
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voxpelli
tantek: I guess, is there any place where we already have such UX/UI research at?
#
voxpelli
(Would need to figure out how to upload files to the wiki as well :P)
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tantek
voxpelli: upload files here https://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload
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tantek
we typically document UX/UI of silos in the "Silo Examples" section of a page for a feature
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tantek
remembers he still needs to split reply vs. comment
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voxpelli
tantek: and which feature would you consider this to be part of? WebActions?
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tantek
voxpelli: good question! I think more general than that, /reply
#
tantek
I'll edit a bit
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voxpelli
tantek: I don't think /reply has anything about the flow outside of ones own site right now
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voxpelli
and if one of the webactions results in an inline form, then the rest should as well I think
#
voxpelli
but perhaps a bit too much to document all UI on one page :P
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tantek
it does have such flow, and that's part of the mixup
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tantek
it might deserve it's own page
#
tantek
s/it's/its
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: it might deserve its own page
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jeena.net
edited /code-of-conduct (+55) "/* Signed */ Jeena" (view diff)
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kylewm
voxpelli: is there a mechanism for updating that list of twitter accounts periodically? i'd be interested in trying to wire up a little API app that creates a twitter list from it automatically
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+141) "start fixing this page to be primarily about reply than comment as the name of the standalone post, before the comment split, start clustering reply vs comment" (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Tantek.com * moved [[comment]] to [[reply]] over redirect: reply is the post type, a comment is a reply syndicated into the context of the original
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tantek.com
edited /reply (+234) "reply comment distinction summary" (view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli: here's a good place to start documenting reply / comment UI / UX in silos: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply#Silo_Examples
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voxpelli
kylewm: that should be doable, if nothing else then semi-automatically by me, but the service is built to run as a continuous crawler so I should put it up somewhere eventually anyhow
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voxpelli
tantek: cool, in the meanwhile, here's how one can hack iOS to do some nice replying there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPmSpD2jN4 ;)
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voxpelli
the rest might be interested as well in that video I just recorded
#
voxpelli
Sharesheet reply -> Editor -> Micropub -> My site
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kylewm
voxpelli: I started playing with rel-me spider this morning, but got hung up on lack of node.js knowledge
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kylewm
it looks awesome though
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voxpelli
kylewm: if an app we're to continiously parse irc-people for new users and then call https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider#apilookup asking for more data about that user, then that would pretty much solve it – also supports webhooks for callbacks if the user hans't been crawled already
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kylewm
also the neo4j is just down the road from me :)
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voxpelli
kylewm: just down the road geographically speaking?
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kylewm
yeah, i left out "office" accidentally... there office is right down the road
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kylewm
their* sheesh
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voxpelli
Cool, their dev-HQ is basically just down the road for me :)
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voxpelli
Founded here in Malmö, Sweden
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kylewm
oh!
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voxpelli
kylewm: only thing I haven't really solved that well in the current version of relspider is the recrawling. Then I tried to look into strategies for that. Aaand I found a rabbit hole. A very deep such :)
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voxpelli
turns out recrawling is more or less an entire academic field :P
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tantek
yes. for a looooong time.
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voxpelli
kylewm: I can start a copy of the spider on heroku if you want to try and do some interactions with it?
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kylewm
voxpelli: thanks, that's ok though. I got pretty close to having it running on heroku myself, think I can get the rest of the way there when I have a bit of time
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voxpelli
kylewm: nice!
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bear
voxpelli - my dorman stats project parses irc-people nightly, I could add a push event to that process
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bear
s/dorman//
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Loqi
bear meant to say: voxpelli - my  stats project parses irc-people nightly, I could add a push event to that process
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voxpelli
bear: cool, perhaps kylewm could add something to it that asks my spider for data and then adds any Twitter profiles found to a Twitter list?
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bear
sure
#
voxpelli
or would that be feature creeping the indiestats project?
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bear
it's meant to be a nightly cron type project
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kylewm
actually twitter list could just be built right into indie stats
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bear
so feature creep is built in ;)
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kylewm
lol
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voxpelli
;)
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@kevinmarks
Hi @oliviataters if you're in Edinburgh, there is indieWebcamp this weekend http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (twtr.io/11uatpbZK4b)
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bear
filed issue https://github.com/bear/indie-stats/issues/6 for that
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kylewm
is oliviataters back??
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KevinMarks__
She is and cooking vegetarian rice in Edinburgh
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rhiaro
senses mention of Edinburgh
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tantek
KevinMarks: What container standardisation convergence?
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Loqi
[bridgy] olivia taters replied '@kevinmarks http were gone . '' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/oliviataters/status/623911219376836608)
#
Loqi
[bridgy] Ben Werdmüller replied '@kevinmarks @oliviataters @rhiaro *cough* mosque kitchen *cough*' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/623911986602991616)
#
Loqi
[bridgy] olivia taters replied '@kevinmarks Edinburgh will have melted &amp; will be a puddle! #bundlecrisis' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/oliviataters/status/623912728726491137)
#
bear
the rise of Docker has created App Container and Open Container Project
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@rhiaro
@benwerd @kevinmarks @oliviataters Indiewebcamp Edinburgh will definitely have vegan catering! (twtr.io/11uc2SRUW0Z)
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tantek
huh - do their creators run them on their own websites?
#
Loqi
[bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@oliviataters I'm sure @rhiaro can help you find some good vegan rice in Edinburgh' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/623911729689276417)
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tantek
bear, what's the selfdogfood evaluation of those efforts?
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bear
each is being run by the orgs that created them
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@oliviataters
@rhiaro @benwerd @kevinmarks Indiewebcamp Edinburgh will honestly do anything to get high rated explosion of bullets in call of duty (twtr.io/11uc5w8P7XC)
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tantek
(not goint to bother asking "what is" to define them unless there is at least a hint of evidence of selfdogfooding)
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bear
and most can be run on the common host OSs
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tantek
bear - "orgs"? meh. who are the creators - name names, and are they using them on their personal sites.
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bear
oh - I think we are talking about two different things
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bear
I thought you were asking about container tech that is used to host multiple OS images on a single host server
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KevinMarks__
Sounds like a blog post series - do you eat it?
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tantek
KevinMarks or what was that new maker directory silo?
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KevinMarks__
Bear, I was hoping that all this container fuss might make it easier to spawn indieweb sites for people
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bear
yes, it sure will
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tantek
is this container fuss making it easier to span indieweb sites for the creators of the container fuss?
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tantek
s/span/spawn
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bear
we can create container images that allow folks to bootstrap a site type
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KevinMarks__
Give how much crap known has to deal with in commodity hosting at the moment
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: is this container fuss making it easier to spawn indieweb sites for the creators of the container fuss?
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@benwerd
Really wish I was back in the 'burgh for #indiewebcamp this weekend. I hear there's some kind of arts event at this time of year, too? (twtr.io/11ucMsDF3bY)
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bear
and then provide a web install portal that they can use to bootstrap it to their server or even laptop
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bear
we are doing that for our own tech here so that devs deploy to local dev environment using containers and then they are uplifted to production
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tantek
KevinMarks, bear, has anyone bothered to make Known work on one of these container fuss things using their own website?
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tantek
just seeing if anyone is even bothering before anyone gets their theoretical hopes up
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benwerd
(I believe someone is using Docker for their website, yes, although I can't point to the domain off the top of my head)
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bear
that is what I was trying back when I first tried known
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bear
but it got derailed because of how known worked with Apache only (not the container's fault)
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tantek
what is Docker?
#
Loqi
Docker provides a way to package an application into a "container" that includes all the dependencies it needs to run https://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
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tantek
benwerd, running Known?
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voxpelli
Heroku is basically built using container tech – and they have enabled one to install a copy of the live environment using docker I think
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tantek
current Docker examples don't look promising: https://indiewebcamp.com/Docker#Indieweb_Examples
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bret
i use heroku for my micropub endpoint, does that count?
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bear
the docker registry lists 9 instances of WithKnown as Docker -- https://registry.hub.docker.com/search?q=known&searchfield=
#
bret
i dont interact with the container host at all though
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bret
building servers and clusters is hard
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bear
oops - 9 includes some false hits
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tantek
I think such container fuss deserves more skepticism until someone presents selfdogfood evidence.
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tantek
e.g. container fuss might be good for paid sysadmin tech, but not indieweb tech
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bret
heroku is to docker as shared hosting php apps is to LAMP
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rhiaro
If I didn't have a billion other things to do I'd definitely attempt to dockerise Known
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benwerd
tantek: yes
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voxpelli
I used Docker to easily get a development environment up for WordPress the other day
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bear
I disagree - any non ops person can take a docker file and spin up a digital ocean server by using cut-n-paste
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tantek
bear - the lack of anyone doing so is why I disagree with that "any non ops person can"
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bear
now the messy/fuss part (and this is where I completely agree with tantek) is to make that seemless for network/dns updates
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voxpelli
and locally one can easily do it with docker-swarm: https://www.docker.com/docker-swarm
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bear
yea, I was circling back around to agreeing with you
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tantek
voxpelli: perhaps add that to /Docker somewhere?
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kylewm
would CoreOS make it seamless for updates?
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tantek
what is CoreOS?
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Loqi
CoreOS is a Linux distribution focused on large-scale deployments https://indiewebcamp.com/CoreOS
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kylewm
publish a new Known container -- it gets pushed to all CoreOS deployments automatically
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voxpelli
also, the "heroku docker:release" command feels pretty magical: https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2015/5/5/introducing_heroku_docker_release_build_deploy_heroku_apps_with_docker
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bear
the host os is moot for seemless updates of the container environment
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bear
what does that is tools like kubernetes or fleet/swarm
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Jeena
voxpelli that is an interesting idea, I don't use WordPress because my servers got owned 3 times because I forgot some old wordpress installation was still running somewhere, but if it is in a container then even if they find some bug in WordPress it still wouldn't compromise the whole server
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bear
kubernetes allows you to do rolling updates based on version info
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Docker (+123) "Added Heroku as a Docker container host" (view diff)
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bear
the above conversation is why I like the indieweb community - polite but firm questions help keep things grounded
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi messages?
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: voxpelli left you a message 10 hours, 5 minutes ago: If you have realtime updates of WebMentions then all you really need to do to deliver feedback is to have the submit happen over Ajax – the update will come back when it's ready, which might take a while http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437552093574
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: Jeena left you a message 2 hours, 32 minutes ago: neat! I guess I have to do something with my notes markup so the title gets better recognized http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437579273899
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: Jeena left you a message 2 hours, 15 minutes ago: it seems that it doesn't follow u-url links to the full article in a feed? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437580334384
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 5 minutes ago: cont'd from last night re: comments box: the idea is that every "native" blog comment box turns into a simple indie reply authoring micropub client, so you can write a comment inline when viewing a post on someone's site, have it post to your site, then show up right there on the page you're viewing. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437580908416
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Loqi
who, me?
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, you.
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ben_thatmustbeme
waits to see if Loqi responds "Couldn't be"
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KartikPrabhu
!tell Jeena, yes hfeed2atom does not follow the entries to permalink pages yet. But if there is no 'content' property it adds a "read full post" type link
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
Hmm... Edinburgh really snuck up on me
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Jeena
but I want to reat the full text in the feed reader not on the website ;)
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Loqi
Jeena: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 minute ago: hfeed2atom does not follow the entries to permalink pages yet. But if there is no 'content' property it adds a "read full post" type link http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437588564521
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: of course that's for your reader to decide :) I don't want a h-feed to atom convertr to make that decision
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Jeena
and at least while having it as microformat you have the ability to check if there is a full post or not, once it is in the atom format that information is gone :)
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gRegorLove
ben_thatmustbeme: Just noticed all the rel in-reply-tos on your homepage. Is that intended for the stream?
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KartikPrabhu
of course :) H-feed is more fidelity
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, gRegorLove those shouldn't be there, thanks
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gRegorLove
Some other multi-rels too; author, bookmark
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: I agree with you. Just that, I don't think that feature belongs in a small lib like hfeed2atom. A reader maybe
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Jeena
hm I see
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KevinMarks__
Atom in principle distinguishes summary and content
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KevinMarks__
In practice not so much
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu we've been talking about this on the IWC in portland see http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/iwreader
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KartikPrabhu
yes. if no <content> only <summary> reader can fetch the <link>
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Docker (+659) "Documenting some more things" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
but actual feed readers based on atom don't use this distinction much at all. feedly does for a change
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KevinMarks__
Except rss doesn't have that distinction, and lots of atom code thus doesn't either
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KartikPrabhu
true
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KartikPrabhu
that is why I am happy with hfeed2atom not taking that responsibility. Just convert h-feed to Atom
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Jeena
KartikPrabhu but fetching the link would mean that you get the whole html website with header, sidebar and footer, etc. and then you still have to parse the microformats to get the content
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KartikPrabhu
yes
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voxpelli
Jeena: I know some readers are already fetching the origin page and processing it for certain data...
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: hfeed2atom will also have to do that
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KartikPrabhu
for example, my article feed has only summary
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Jeena
which is obviously the wrong thing to do ;)
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KartikPrabhu
I threw an idea for partial h-feeds out there https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#partial_feeds
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KartikPrabhu
nope.
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KartikPrabhu
my homepage is very clean due to that. People read summary and only use their bandwidth if they want to read the article. Good UX
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Jeena
oh no, not in hfeeds, just in rss feeds I meant
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KartikPrabhu
same with RSS
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Jeena
I'm with you there see https://jeena.net/posts
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KartikPrabhu
i see feed readers as "my website somewhere else" so I don't see the distinction
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Jeena
I use RSS more often than not offline so I want to have the content right there not first when I look at the content, because then I often do not have access to the internet
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KartikPrabhu
yes. so it is the responsibility of your reader to do the fetching
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Jeena
for hfeed I'd agree, for RSS hm, difficult because you never get just the content but you have to implement something to extract the content from the whole HTML which is not a trivial thing to do
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KartikPrabhu
when a feed reader encounter what it thinks is a partial feed it can fetch the full thing for content (just like a human reader would for an hfeed)
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KartikPrabhu
on a website also you never get just the content
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Jeena
but you should
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rhiaro
petermolnar: remind me what that ssl cert provider that does 3 months free is?
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: no. on websites you get some UI things like navigations sidebars etc...
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Jeena
perhaps I'm just using RSS as a workaround for all the horrible webdesign out there so I don't need to see it
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aaronpk
oh man my node.js script for realtime comments keeps crashing with weird errors, can't wait to replace it with the nginx push-stream module
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Jeena
I even rather read my own content in the feed reader where everything has the perfect font/size padding, contrast, colors, etc.
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KartikPrabhu
well then you should redesign your site to have good font/size/padding, contrast and colors ;)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu++ :)
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 109 karma
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voxpelli
Jeena: "extract the content from the whole HTML" – experimental stuff @ https://github.com/bloglovin/metadataparser/tree/experimental-readability ;)
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tantek
Jeena, and then step 2, add built-in /reader support to your personal site.
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KartikPrabhu
I still read some websites in their original even though Feedly gets the full article
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Jeena
I could do that, KartikPrabhu but I can't redesign tanteks website ;)
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tantek
Jeena ^^^ I anticipated that ;)
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Jeena
*g*
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tantek
so that you use *your site* to read *my site*
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Jeena
yeah, the problem is still the offline thing
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tantek
same answer :D
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KartikPrabhu
doing those things with RSS is much more trouble that it is worth. an h-feed reader might be more suitable for that
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tantek
step 1: add offline support to *your site*
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tantek
step 2: add offline support the *reader* on *your site*
#
tantek
done
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Jeena
I don't know how!!1
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voxpelli
Jeena: Service workers
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tantek
then capture it as an itch on your User: page!
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tantek
Jeena per /wikify :)
#
tantek
and as you learn, you can expand the itch
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tantek
until you do know how, have the time, and build it
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KartikPrabhu
!tell cdevroe, cweiske, I have to make a hfeed2atom proxy for aaronpk to use first :) On the list for tonight
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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#
I
?
#
Loqi
I: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message on 3/9 at 11:30am: do have a tripod if needed
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tantek
;)
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Loqi
I: cweiske left you a message 3 weeks, 1 day ago: didn't check php-resque. I was happy with gearman. But now I just found out that I need scheduled tasks, which is something that neither gearman nor php-resque give me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-07/line/1428398114615
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Loqi
I: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 minute ago: have to make a hfeed2atom proxy for aaronpk to use first :) On the list for tonight http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437589737192
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tantek
lolol
#
KartikPrabhu
oh did I mess it up
#
tantek
all 3 of you did, or Loqi did, your choice
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gRegorLove
I, tantek
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jeena.net
edited /User:Jeena.net (-10) "/* working on */ personal itch" (view diff)
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aaronpk
sometimes loqi's syntax is too forgiving
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ben_thatmustbeme
lol
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voxpelli
Jeena: you might be interested in this demo: https://wiki-offline.jakearchibald.com/
#
Jeena
tantek do you have an example of a offline website I could look at? I mean I want a nice UI which means I want to be able to start it on my phone from the home menu, or on the desktop as an application
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ben_thatmustbeme
lots of messages for "i"
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Loqi
gives Jeena a nice UI which means I want to be able to start it on my phone from the home menu
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KartikPrabhu
ok logs caught up
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tantek
what is offline?
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Loqi
offline is anytime you're not online and connected to the internet https://indiewebcamp.com/offline
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Jeena
hm
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tantek
I believe aaronpk was experimenting with it - perhaps he can share and we can add to /offline
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: my only argument for your use-case is that, it is a feature for a feed reader
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aaronpk
all i've done so far is making the Quill editor work offline
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aaronpk
it only saves one post offline though, so not a full offline client
#
aaronpk
but you can at least save your post, close the window, and come back to it later when you're online and post it
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KevinMarks
damn, missed hadley's keynote
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voxpelli
Jeena: this feels pretty exhaustive (but maybe some things has happened with the specs since then): http://jakearchibald.com/2014/offline-cookbook/#on-install-as-a-dependency
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Jeena
I wrote https://marketplace.firefox.com/app/feedmonkey/ which is a HTML/CSS/JS application which works offline. But I made it installable on the phone because I miss some detail in how to make it so it won't want to redownload the app from the internet when I get on the websige in the browser when I'm offline
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Jeena
looks interesting voxpelli
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KevinMarks
voxpelli: I think the new twist is getting notifications when the client isn't running
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voxpelli
KevinMarks: yeah, ServiceWorkers and the Push API should be able to handle that
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KevinMarks
right, though Chrome only for now until the new Firefox shows up
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snarfed
just to play devil's advocate, Jeena, using existing "legacy" feed readers that have existing mobile apps with good offline support (feedly, newsblur, etc) is *totally* reasonable
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snarfed
even for reading indie sites, since we have services and libs like hfeed2atom and granary that convert h-feed to rss/atom
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Loqi
snarfed: pfefferle left you a message 6 hours, 38 minutes ago: is the salmentations stuff functional? but you are true, we should merge them http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437566689866
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snarfed
i'd love to have a good mobile offline indie reader that supports h-feed…but making a good reader is a *big* project, especially with good mobile/offline support
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Loqi
snarfed: pfefferle left you a message 6 hours, 36 minutes ago: the code seems very hacky with a lot of debug logs http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437566855259
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snarfed
it'd be great to build one! but that's a really big ask, so i vote that you can be a good indieweb citizen and still use legacy readers for now
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Jeena
snarfed yeah unless you want to read aaronpks or tanteks stuff in those readers because hfeed2atom doesn't get the rest of the partial feeds :)
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tantek
aaronpk, Jeena definitely add both of those Quill / feedmonkey to the /offline page!!!
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: neither do traditional feed readers
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snarfed
Jeena: hmm. i get tantek's full posts in a legacy reader without using any lib or service
#
Jeena
but feedmonkey is just RSS
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snarfed
aaronpk's articles too, but maybe you're right, not replies etc
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: has a secret Atom feed :P
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tantek
no it's discoverable!
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KartikPrabhu
oh then its OK :)
#
tantek
and I put full content in it as much as it makes sense to
#
tantek
I even try to put my "likes" into it
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Jeena
hehe ok I just took tantek and aaronpk as an example but I guess you get my point in theory ^^
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tantek
using AS/Atom - but I don't know of any "reader" that consumes them :/
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snarfed
Jeena: eh forget theory, it's all about practice. :P in practice the vast majority of indieweb sites i want to follow still publish legacy feeds
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snarfed
…and the rest will be solved soon with KartikPrabhu's service!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /offline (+323) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: Jeena is saying that hfeed2atom does not fetch the full content for you. which is fine for me, since the original h-feed doesn't have it anyway
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tantek
what's the best way to tell how many times someone "reads" one of your posts in a legacy feed reader? per post 1px gif bugs that are only in the Atom versions?
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aaronpk
haha
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aaronpk
that would be interesting
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tantek
not intentionally funny!
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KartikPrabhu
errr what!?
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voxpelli
tantek: you can get pretty reliable info on the subscriber count at least
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KevinMarks
there's always unmung.com
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tantek
voxpelli: that's not as interesting IMO
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: sure. i concede any detail like that. hfeed2atom is still way young and early yet
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snarfed
my point is that "build a pure indieweb solution" is a good way to get functionality, but definitely not the *only acceptable* way, especially for stuff like mobile offline readers that are very substantial projects
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KevinMarks
though I shouls add some proper caching
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aaronpk
more subtle would be to use a different image proxy for images in your posts for the html vs atom feeds
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: sure.
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tantek
voxpelli: more interesting is, how many times was the post actually displayed in a *feed reader* (as a rough approximate for # of times actually read by someone using a feed reader)
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tantek
aaronpk - that's kind of what I said
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tantek
"that are only in the Atom versions?"
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KevinMarks
snarfed, do you have an diea why I get 403 for some https url swith appengine?
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KartikPrabhu
err I have been told my "sure" comes off as sarcastic, but I blame text-only communications
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aaronpk
yes but i'm talking about not injecting fake images
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tantek
ooooh
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voxpelli
tantek: you won't be able to tell that – eg. Bloglovin caches all images at their own proxy and wouldn't leak such information to you
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tantek
you could do that with the author image
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snarfed
403? that should only be generated by the actual end server
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tantek
?view=atom
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tantek
example.jpg?view=atom
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aaronpk
utm_source=atom lolol
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KevinMarks
http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdavid.shanske.com%2F2015%2F07%2F21%2Fmobilepub%2F&html=&pretty=on
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tantek
example.jpg?view=atom&postid=XYZ123 etc.
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aaronpk
author image is a good idea tho!
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KevinMarks
ah, so do i need to change useragent or something?
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Jeena
a couple of years ago I fucked up my awstats setup and never fixed it, so now I don't know if there is anyone reading my stuff and I feel free!
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voxpelli
just such a thing like https requires any web based feed reader on https to load all posts through some kind of proxy – and if you do, then some kind of cache makes sense as well
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tantek
Jeena, the purpose for me would be to see how many "readers" would I lose by dropping Atom
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KevinMarks
that reminds me, I need to add a utm_ rewriter to my link parsing
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voxpelli
s/posts/post images/
#
Loqi
voxpelli meant to say: just such a thing like https requires any web based feed reader on https to load all post images through some kind of proxy – and if you do, then some kind of cache makes sense as well
#
tantek
and to see if there is any up/downward trend of people viewing my posts via Atom
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KartikPrabhu
knows exactly how many readers he loses by dropping Atom, maybe 2/3 and he might have already lost them because Feedly defaults to RSS which is now dropped!
#
Jeena
I'm just being silly, I know that there are good reasons for stats
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snarfed
KevinMarks: maybe! try it. hard to say for sure, it'd take some digging. all i can say is it's coming from the servers, not caused by app engine
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KevinMarks
maybe I'm seeing wordpress blocking python's default useragent as a naive anti-bot tactic
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KevinMarks
I though it might be a robots.txt thing with fetch() using the google crawler
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KartikPrabhu
on today's spam menu: https://twitter.com/craigmod/status/623891772792549376
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@craigmod
Sadly have to turn off open DMs from people I don't follow — getting spammed. (twtr.io/11uVRuiNYbG)
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@RudigerMeyer
tweet 22 Jul, 2015 · 5:42 pm Testing tweeting from my site via brid.gy (rdgr.me u/bexd2j) #indieweb (twtr.io/11uhymJPKtb)
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tantek
Bridgy++
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Loqi
Bridgy has 18 karma
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tantek
wat
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gRegorLove
bridgy++
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Loqi
bridgy has 19 karma
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KartikPrabhu
bridgy++ because bridgy deserves more
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Loqi
bridgy has 20 karma
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snarfed
aww thanks all
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gRegorLove
Speaking of Bridgy, did it recently add UTC dt-published based on the time received, for likes and reposts?
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KevinMarks
ooh, I cna se hadley just by going back int he timeline http://www.oscon.com/open-source-2015 at 15:45
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KevinMarks
hadleybeeman++
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Loqi
hadleybeeman has 1 karma
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tantek
timetravel++
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Loqi
too much karma!
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@kartik_prabhu
@RudigerMeyer Looks like it worked! So, here’s a reply from my site! #indieweb (twtr.io/11uiFdEAUks)
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KevinMarks
she gave the openign keynote at OSCON this morning
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2015/Demos (+722) "add youtube video for demos!" (view diff)
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snarfed
gRegorLove: not recently that i know of
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gRegorLove
Sorry, not likes. reposts and comments.
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snarfed
still no
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snarfed
it may be there, but it wouldn't be new, unless maybe the underlying api data changed. which is unlikely
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snarfed
is off, back in an hr
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gRegorLove
Hm, ok.
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gRegorLove
I think my old webmention code was converting to local time. New plugin doesn't do that yet.
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jonnybarnes
hey peeps, can someone let me “send” them a webmention?
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jonnybarnes
though it actually appear to come from jbl5.dev
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gRegorLove
jonnybarnes: I'll allow it. ;)
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jonnybarnes
so you'd have to like just delete the mention
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tantek
gRegorLove++
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Loqi
gRegorLove has 23 karma
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jonnybarnes
thanks gRegorLove
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gRegorLove
Anything on http://gregorlove.com/notes/
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gRegorLove
No wm are displayed publicly currently
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jonnybarnes
so if I pretend to reply to http://gregorlove.com/2015/07/you-can-pick-your-nose/
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: nobody will be able to retrieve/display it if it's coming from a dev site, that's ok?
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gRegorLove
I can confirm once I get it though
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KartikPrabhu
jonnybarnes: there is my test note: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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jonnybarnes
kylewm, yeah, changing my webmentions code so its no longer inline but asynced to a queue, want to test it before Imake it public
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jonnybarnes
erm, hopefully that's sent gRegorLove
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jonnybarnes
or maybe not
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KevinMarks
retro noterliving hadley
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gRegorLove
jonnybarnes: got it!
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jonnybarnes
hmmm, well at least the queue part works :D
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jonnybarnes
just need to know why the in-rpely-to value in my notes db is null
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jonnybarnes
gRegorLove, can I try again?
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gRegorLove
Go for it
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gRegorLove
Same source URL?
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jonnybarnes
did you get it?
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jonnybarnes
should be different
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gRegorLove
Yep
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jonnybarnes
notes/2q
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jonnybarnes
excellent, I think thats all the kinks ironed out
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KevinMarks
the other way to test is to make a cheeky withknown site and WM it
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jonnybarnes
cheeky? don't say that to a brit
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KevinMarks
I'm 'avin a larf mate
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jonnybarnes
y'alrite wobbly'ed
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@kevinmarks
@palafo @anildash @owillis @fmanjoo @katephillips you could support micropub in your cms, then there's a choice of editing tools #indieweb (twtr.io/11upHwPZbmw)
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kylewm
then we just need MS Word to Micropub and fmanjoo will be set
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@kevinmarks
@anildash @palafo @owillis @fmanjoo @katephillips trolling is writing wishlists, not implementations. http://www.kevinmarks.com/we-like-indieweb-software.html #indieweb (twtr.io/11uqZZHSy80)
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aaronpk
oh man
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KartikPrabhu
oh boy! KevinMarks got himself into trouble again! :P
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+28) "archived Balanced Payments" (view diff)
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loqi.me
created /sixapart (+123) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+99) "archived Yahoo Maps, noted maps.yahoo.com redirect" (view diff)
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gRegorLove
Joke social network /site-death http://emoj.li/
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aaronpk
haha "...and despite the occasional call from confused investors, it isn't a startup"
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tantek
sure, add it
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gRegorLove
"That's all. We're not going to give you any rubbish about our incredible journey."
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aaronpk
and hey the two founders linked to their websites before their twitter accounts
#
KevinMarks
Tom is great
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KevinMarks
don't think I've met Matt
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Gregorlove.com * moved [[sixapart]] to [[Six Apart]]: canonical name
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gregorlove.com
edited /Six_Apart (+51) (view diff)
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gRegorLove
Wow, Angelfire still exists. http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/ http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Angelfire
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tantek
huh, SixApart's post/page about Pownce now 404s also http://www.sixapart.com/pownce
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tantek
and post about why they are pursuing the Atom (then "Echo") effort: http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2003/06/why-we-need-ech.html
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tantek
whoa Six Apart got re-exported as a brand and became an independent Japanese company! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Apart#2011
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snarfed
mmm brand necrophilia
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fran.io
edited /2015/Edinburgh (+112) "/* Co-located events */ Add Jazz Festival - better late than never" (view diff)
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tantek
snarfed++ for the jwz reference
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Loqi
snarfed has 119 karma
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@RudigerMeyer
@kartik_prabhu For some reason my site isn’t sending webmentions automatically – still something to figure out there (rdgr.me u/l73fbz) (twtr.io/11uw4FiX61b)
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snarfed
hah, didn't know it was a reference
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snarfed
nothing new under the sun i guess
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snarfed
jwz++ regardless
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Loqi
jwz has 1 karma
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tantek
snarfed: here you go (originator of the phrase AFAIK) http://www.jwz.org/blog/2003/10/brand-necrophilia/
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jonnybarnes
I'm trying out twitter’s embedded tweets, and I can't center them
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Loqi
[bridgy] Paul Philleo RSVPed yes to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/1455747814748163#10153111304823915)
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KevinMarks
wow, the comments on the 6apart post: https://web.archive.org/web/20140801155433/http://www.sixapart.com/blog/2003/06/why-we-need-ech.html
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aaronpk
kind of goes to show that a spec that leaves too many ways of doing things ends up frustrating people into making a new spec
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tantek
yeah
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tantek
or a spec that is too buggy and the editor refuses to fix will be replaced by another spec
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@TapestryMaker
Known 0.8 released -- kudos to Erin Jo, Ben, and the @withknown community! #indieweb (twtr.io/11v0oi72dWQ)
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Loqi
[mention] Craig Pilcher posted 'The Indie Web 2 min read I have been griping about leaving F...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://pilch.me/2014/the-indie-web)
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aaronpk
speaking of which, we should probably make sure we have clear specs for both publishing and consuming h-feed, h-entry, because right now it's kind of confusing
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tantek
let's start with documentation of the issues so we can make sure they're being addressed - i.e. anything you see as a source of "confusion
#
tantek
"
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aaronpk
most of the confusion is around finding the author of an h-entry or a feed
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tantek
sounds like issues to note in /authorship
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aaronpk
another one is something Jeena and I talked about at IWC, is not wanting to publish a feed on your home page, but linking to one or more feeds instead
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tantek
feed discovery
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tantek
yes - it's good that you two were talking about real world (personal) use-cases in that conversation
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tantek
what is feed discovery?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "feed discovery" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=feed+discovery&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437603992063
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tantek
feed discovery is a way to, given someone's home page, discover their feed or feeds that they publish.
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loqi.me
created /feed_discovery (+129) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437603992063 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
Loqi
[mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/ds106-is-not-a-cult-its-a-club/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge (pingback)
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tantek.com
edited /feed_discovery (+720) "expand with How to, simple version, brainstorming, off home feeds, see also" (view diff)
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gRegorLove
I have an h-feed on my notes page and the main navigation links to it with rel="feed"
#
gRegorLove
I still need to add a p-name and u-url to that h-feed though
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tantek
gRegorLove: sounds like you could add an "IndieWeb Examples" section for that brainstorm then ;)
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gRegorLove
On /feed_discovery?
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dhalgren
hi!
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tantek
gRegorLove: yes!
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tantek
welcome dhalgren
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gRegorLove
I'll put it on /h-feed too
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tantek
https://indiewebcamp.com/feed_discovery#Off_home_feeds
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tantek
gRegorLove: indeed you should add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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dhalgren
random q: I see quite a lot of references to IndieWeb tech in the w3c's social web process. how is that relationship expected to go? I mean, will there be eventual interoperability with current oStatus, pump.io etc networks or what exactly is the roadmap/vision here?
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KevinMarks
previously for feed discovery https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-atompub-autodiscovery-00
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dhalgren
or are they just mining these protocols for ideas?
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gregorlove.com
edited /h-feed (+224) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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KevinMarks
interoperability is good; it's often best done as translation shims
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KevinMarks
we have quite a few of those already fro silos that turn them into indieweb friendly formats
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gregorlove.com
edited /h-feed (+19) "/* gRegor Morrill */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2015/Indieweb_Reader (+3287) "copy from etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /feed_discovery (+25) "/* Off home feeds */ link to IWC session" (view diff)
#
tantek
dhalgren - this is where active development of these protocols and formats is happening
#
tantek
there's no current work on oStatus
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tantek
pump.io is both an implementation and a proposal and is being discussed primarily in the Social Web WG at this point
#
tantek
the "vision" here is best explained by indiewebcamp.com home page
#
gregorlove.com
created /POSSE_post_discovery (+34) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /feed_discovery (+80) "/* Off home feeds */ Bridgy follows rel="feed"" (view diff)
#
tantek
regarding roadmap, what is roadmap
#
Loqi
Typical use of the term roadmap does not refer to actual roads, maps, or maps of roads - instead, keep a personal priority ordered list of what you're specifically Working On, and for unsorted or vague desires, add them to an unordered Itches list, on your User page or your project's page https://indiewebcamp.com/roadmap
#
tantek
dhalgren, thus the roadmap question for you is, what's your personal site, and what's the very next thing you want to improve on it?
#
tantek
what is the vision?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "vision" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vision&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437605371970
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tantek
vision is /
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loqi.me
created /vision (+38) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437605371970 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
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tantek.com
edited /vision (-23) "Redirected page to [[/]]" (view diff)
#
dhalgren
tantek: thx! I saw a gnu mediagoblin lecture yesterday, that's how I found these Social Web WG pages. I was simply plesently surprised by the apparent awareness of this community there; thought the federated social webs were going a rather separate way from the DIY spirit here.
#
tantek.com
edited /vision (+0) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /vision (+7) "Redirected page to [[Main Page]]" (view diff)
#
tantek
dhalgren - indeed many things are connecting!
#
tantek
dhalgren: in particular, regarding federated social webs, the indieweb community is at this point leading the cutting edge charge, per our recent passing of SWAT0 with 3 different implementations: http://tantek.com/2015/193/t2/user-flow-permalinks-indieweb-swat0
#
tantek
we're hoping to get out of the current /monoculture trap that so many other implementations / federated social webs have fallen into
#
tantek
s/federated social webs/federated social web attempts
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: we're hoping to get out of the current /monoculture trap that so many other implementations / federated social web attempts have fallen into
#
tantek
or even avoid
#
tantek
whether or not any particular monoculture can be patched to federated with other implementation is a good question. we can submit pull requests, and sometimes document attempts to do so, but so far progress with connecting /monoculture communities/efforts has been slow
#
tantek
s/federated/federate
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: whether or not any particular monoculture can be patched to federate with other implementation is a good question. we can submit pull requests, and sometimes document attempts to do so, but so far progress with connecting /monoculture communities/efforts has been slow
#
dhalgren
indeed. though I see there really are tens of thousands of people that are free of silos using one of those federated social webs today, according to some partial census I found; that's alot of early adopters; I gather this community is much smaller, even though I'd have a far easier time implementing and interoperating with the IndieWeb.
#
dhalgren
well my own project, delayed by a babylon5 binge and moving to another place, exists on scratches of paper at this point -- I must correct that this summer :)
#
GWG
Evening
#
tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+68) "summary dfn" (view diff)
#
tantek
dhalgren - we can very much help you correct that, incrementally, step by step
#
jeena.net
edited /IRC_People (+29) "/* Nicknames */ Jeena added avatar" (view diff)
#
tantek
regarding the "tens of thousands of people that are free of silos using one of those federated social webs" - they're free as much as leaky lifeboats leaving the Titanic are "free" of an iceberg
#
dhalgren
heehehe
#
GWG
dhalgren: What is your project?
#
GWG
tantek: I will have you know there was plenty of room in some of the those lifeboats
#
tantek
dhalgren - the problem being that each of those supposed "federated social webs" is its own monoculture due to being single-implementation based, which puts a lot of constraints / limitations on their growth / interop
#
tantek
they're essentially disconnected islands, not a federation. and as long as that continues to be true, they will not be a practical alternative to large corporate silos.
#
tantek
also
#
tantek
babylon5++
#
Loqi
babylon5 has 1 karma
#
tantek
dhalgren: do you have a personal site currently? even a domain name with one page?
#
tantek
and you have hit the proverbial nail on the head with "I'd have a far easier time implementing and interoperating with the IndieWeb" <-- that is the key
#
tantek
lowering the barrier to independent hackability, empowering people to interoperate without having to depend on a singular implementation
#
dhalgren
GWG: nothing too fancy, but improving my haskell skills basically, and publishing the results as a reusable library and a blog (I've got too many writings I liked that ended up only as a deeply nested obscure reddit comment) - a statically generated blog skeleton using hakyll (that part I have but the code is terrible, was trying some idioms I didn't understand) , with frontend js using functional reactive programming (reflex lib prob
#
dhalgren
and amicroservice backend
#
tantek
what is Haskell?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Haskell" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Haskell&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437606189125
#
tantek
What is Reddit?
#
Loqi
Reddit is a link aggregator and bulletin board site where community members may submit links and text posts, vote on the submitted entries, and post comments on them https://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit
#
tantek
What is Hakyll?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Hakyll" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hakyll&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437606208198
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tantek.com
edited /Reddit (+111) "add How to export stub" (view diff)
#
dhalgren
that is, a backend for comments at least. Haskell is a pure functional programming language. I find it really elegant. Hakyll is a static site generator in it.
#
tantek
Haskell is a pure functional programming [[language]].
#
loqi.me
created /Haskell (+81) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437606189125 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
tantek
Hakyll is a [[static site generator]] written in [[Haskell]].
#
loqi.me
created /Hakyll (+88) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-22/line/1437606208198 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
Loqi
ok
#
tantek
any of you Reddit users have any idea about how to export your stuff from Reddit? even a link? or brainstorm suggestions? please add to: https://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit#How_to_export
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tantek.com
edited /language (+14) "Haskell" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Haskell (+29) "see also Hakyll" (view diff)
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dhalgren
yeah I did find a way to export when looking, haven't scripted it to page back through history but its simple
#
dhalgren
I'll document it and link it to the site while writing that code
#
tantek
thank you dhalgren, your offered knowledge has been assimilated into the wiki. /Haskell /Hakyll
#
tantek
try asking "what is" questions to query
#
dhalgren
you guys do everything from irc, cool :)
#
GWG
dhalgren: Not everything, but it is the center of the community
#
GWG
Like a clubhouse
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Reddit (+275) "/* How to export */ API doc link" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove
No firsthand experience, but appears like the Reddit API will allow getting most things out. ^
#
dhalgren
yy, I already have a few pages of myown comments in json on disk, it's nice
#
dhalgren
re domain name, I'll take the official one my government is offering. no anonymity but first.last.from.hr , being free & secure (linked to personal ID). could out me if someone searches for my reddit profile on the basis of those sentences, but I figure its no longer such a big deal (hope?)
#
KevinMarks
how does that work if 2 of you have the same name?
#
tantek
same given and family names?
#
dhalgren
you can choose an extra fragment to disambiguate: first.last.extra.from.hr
#
tantek
KevinMarks, also I believe William Gibson solved this problem in Neuromancer
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Reddit (+128) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
#
dhalgren
sry, its first-last-extra actually, not w .
#
KevinMarks
ah, thats simpler in DNS then
#
tantek.com
edited /roadmap (+111) "better, more positive call to action for any roadmap queries" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+79) "2014 Craig Pilcher The Indie Web" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
tantek: not sure if you saw earlier, but I posted the hack day demo videos and linked to each person's start time under their name! http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos#Portland_Hack_Day_Demos
#
tantek.com
edited /SWAT0 (+40) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ itemize citations" (view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk WHOA
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tantek.com
edited /2015/Demos (+167) "/* Tantek */ note update to comments markup after demo, with link to latest infio" (view diff)
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KevinMarks
nice aaron
#
kongaloosh.com
edited /Micropub (+211) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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kongaloosh.com
edited /Micropub (+0) "/* Kongaloosh */" (view diff)
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Kongaloosh
rhiaro: fixed and done; added myself to micropub.
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gRegorLove
Why u-comment on /comments-presentation#How_to_markup instead of p-comment?
#
aaronpk
i'm glad you asked :)
#
GWG
u-comment now?
#
GWG
I can't keep up
#
gRegorLove
Looks like u-comment gives a fuller implied 'value' in the parser?
#
gRegorLove
Vs. just the comment plaintext as the 'value'
#
aaronpk
yes, it makes the "value" end up being the URL
#
gRegorLove
Hmm, not in php-mf2 (on https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/)
#
aaronpk
one step closer to having an always-useful "value" as a fallback when the consumer doesn't understand the object
#
aaronpk
it's only in the latest php-mf2
#
aaronpk
which reminds me i should update pin13.net
#
gRegorLove
I thought barnaby kept that up to date, but maybe he forgot
#
aaronpk
hm i should also add the php parser version number into the response just for kicks
#
gRegorLove
wikifies
#
KartikPrabhu
wait what! the value for a comment should be the URL?
#
aaronpk
yeah, imagine if you didn't do any fancy comment parsing, what would you display?
#
aaronpk
just the URL!
#
KartikPrabhu
native comments?
#
aaronpk
i mean webmention parsing
#
aaronpk
like if the source URL doesn't have any microformats, the best you can do is show the URL
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah so then should native comments have a p-comment and webmention ones u-comment?
#
aaronpk
maybe!
#
gregorlove.com
edited /comments-presentation (+336) "/* FAQ */ Why use u-comment instead of p-comment" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
i don't know, i don't really think about native comments much since I abandoned that years ago
#
KartikPrabhu
I have some old native comments from blogger
#
aaronpk
oy where's the list of online mf2 parsers?
#
aaronpk
only the two php ones are here http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#validators
#
KartikPrabhu
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
#
aaronpk
oh i see, the libraries have links to the hosted versions if there is one
#
aaronpk
i wouldn't call pin13 a validator
#
gRegorLove
I plan to have local comments support for a while on my site, so yeah, I'll probably use p-comment h-cite for those.
#
gRegorLove
Sound right, aaronpk? https://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#Why_use_u-comment_instead_of_p-comment
#
aaronpk
sounds right
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KartikPrabhu
is still confused. is the use-case "salmentions" ?
#
GWG
One of them, I imagine.
#
aaronpk
it's unfortunate we didn't get this into the parsers from the very beginning, but the idea is that the "value" property should always be a useful fallback if you don't understand what the object is
#
KartikPrabhu
what are the others if any?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "others if any" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=others+if+any&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437613128586
#
aaronpk
so for comments/salmention, if you don't go into the h-cite object and get the attributes from there, you could just use the "value" of the h-cite
#
aaronpk
which is now the URL if the object is "u-comment h-cite"
#
gRegorLove
KartikPrabhu: If you have a neested h-*, the parent h-* value should be the p-name of the child, for example
#
KartikPrabhu
if you are parsing a comment why not have the palin text as fall back?
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: yes. so if I have a nested h-cite the value will be whatever p-name it has
#
gRegorLove
Depending on the parser prefix. Only if you use p-
#
gRegorLove
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##child%20element%20itself%20has%20a%20microformat
#
KartikPrabhu
yes. I still don't understand the use for having the URL as the "value"
#
KartikPrabhu
also there is no way to know if the value is actually a URL or just some text someone inserted
#
gRegorLove
For salmentions, makes it easier to find new comments without diving into the h-cite. I dunno, haven't implemented salmentions yet
#
KartikPrabhu
well at the moment no salmention implementation actually check the URL of the comment anyway
#
aaronpk
what do you mean?
#
gRegorLove
I thought the SWAT0 test people did
#
aaronpk
you have to check the URL of the comment in order to know if it's a new comment or not
#
aaronpk
so at the very least my implementation does
#
KartikPrabhu
hmmm
#
KartikPrabhu
well I don't know, I'll stick to p-comment unless I find some reason to switch
#
KartikPrabhu
not sold on the fallback value being the URL
#
gRegorLove
It does seem pretty restrictive, if that's the only way to support salmentions.
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KartikPrabhu
it is the only way if you don't want to go into the h-cite and find the URL
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gRegorLove
Does your implementation dive into the h-cite if the value isn't a URL?
#
aaronpk
it's not the only way obviously
#
gRegorLove
Q for aaronpk ^
#
aaronpk
yeah i have to dive into the h-cite
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gRegorLove
Ok
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gRegorLove
Then I guess it's not restrictive, as long as implementations fallback to looking in the h-cite
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gRegorLove
stops hypothesizing
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tantek
gRegorLove: note that the u-comment explanation is *right there* below the how to mark up code sample under "What each of these do:"
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tantek
first point: u-comment
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tantek
and explicitly mentions salmention as well
#
gRegorLove
I saw it later. I would have expected it to be under the first bullet
#
tantek
but hey - if no one else here could find that then an extra FAQ works too
#
tantek
it is
#
tantek
"for comment discovery when reading an h-entry for salmention receiving. "
#
tantek
done
#
gRegorLove
That line isn't clear why u-comment instead of p-comment
#
gRegorLove
To me at least
#
tantek
yes it just says why u-comment
#
gRegorLove
What is comment discovery?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "comment discovery" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=comment+discovery&summary=prompted+by+gRegorLove+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437616131925
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tantek
which is all you want for anyone coming to the page for the first time
#
tantek
which is most people
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tantek
(future)
#
tantek
who don't really care about the history of how it got to be that way
#
tantek
(in fact, trying to incorporate such history inline typically leads to spec-bloat, and makes anything spec-like harder to read)
#
gRegorLove
I think most first-time readers will not be clear on "comment discovery" or "salmention"
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tantek
they would be even *less clear* if they had to read a history
#
gRegorLove
"The u- prefix on the "comment" property works to get the u-url from inside the h-cite" under the second bullet is clearer
#
gRegorLove
But I would have expected it under the first bullet
#
tantek
nope - because the simpler case is just the u-comment
#
tantek
it's incremental disclosure of the information
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gRegorLove
I'm not suggesting adding history, just explanation of "why u-comment"
#
gRegorLove
::shrug::
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tantek
it does say why u-comment. just doesn't say why u-comment vs. all other possibilities
#
aaronpk
frankly I don't find the explanation of "because comment discovery" compelling
#
tantek
also for a native comment - you probably want p-comment h-entry anyway
#
aaronpk
and I definitely do like having justifications for things when I'm reading these, otherwise I just think "eh that seems like extra work, why bother"
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gRegorLove
Further confusing to people coming across a 'how to markup' section :)
#
aaronpk
i think we need a "how to mark up native comments" section too :)
#
tantek
it's not just "because comment discovery"
#
tantek
you're taking it out of context
#
tantek
of the phrase which is "for comment discovery when reading an h-entry for salmention receiving"
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aaronpk
it still doesn't say *why* that is useful
#
tantek
obviously when you drop pieces of that, you create a strawman which you can then claim, eh, doesn't matter
#
tantek
yes, /salmention needs a Why section
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aaronpk
ironically i'm pretty sure I was the one that pointed out it was better to use "u-comment", and now I don't even remember the actual reason other than it was related to salmention
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tantek
because for salmentions you care about the URL of the comment being updated
#
tantek
or new
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kylewm
i think u-like and u-repost were pretty much slam dunks, p-/u-comment is somewhat more debateable
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#
tantek
kylewm - how is different? other than "native" comments
#
tantek
which you could argue based on some systems that their could be "native" likes too
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gRegorLove
I like the idea of explicit how to markup sections for native/webmentions
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kylewm
well you could argue whether the text or the url of the received comment is more representative
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tantek
kylewm - it's more about which gives you a way to *get to* more representative, which the URL does
#
@MicropubInfo
MicroPub: Description: Publishes the current document to a Micropub endpoint using the current IndieAuth autho... https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http://www.editorial-workflows.com/workflow/5833229495959552/tO76Z7cIfTU&ct=ga&cd=CAIyHDNlNjg4ODQzODIxNzA0ZmU6Y28udWs6ZW46R0I&usg=AFQjCNH3O6UCN74J7qLyrH-B5cm3FBluBA&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twtr.io/11vLhB3mPdf)
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tantek
unless it's a "native" comment, in which case the comment is all there inline
#
tantek
what is MicropubInfo?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "MicropubInfo" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MicropubInfo&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-07-22%2Fline%2F1437616607344
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aaronpk
haha
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aaronpk
it's a bot that tweets search results for "micropub"
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aaronpk
but not our kind of micropub
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tantek
wat
#
tantek
aaronpk - you explained it yourself I thought above - for more easily getting the URL of the comment
#
tantek
whether or not there is an h-cite
#
tantek
but clearly yes based on the confusion it's worth documenting more as an FAQ
#
aaronpk
yes i think that is the actual reason.
#
aaronpk
but even still, the problem is if people don't do it consistently, I can't rely on the "value" being useful
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tantek
and that's what we discussed and figured out that night in PDX
#
tantek
and why I updated it from p-comment to u-comment
#
tantek
other way around
#
tantek
if you rely on the value being useful
#
tantek
when it doesn't work for people, they'll fix their code
#
tantek
plus we can validate for it too
#
aaronpk
but I can't rely on the value being useful because it isn't always guaranteed to be a URL
#
tantek
(as in an addition for indiewebify.me - test your comments markup on your h-entry)
#
tantek
sure - we should diagram what happens with a "native" comment and salmentions - and what should happen
#
kylewm
well you're only falling back to "value" if you don't recognize the object you want anyway
#
tantek
kylewm - or you don't even bother looking for the object
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aaronpk
the problem is more apparent when you consider that the "comment" property of the h-entry may be both a native comment or a webmention comment
#
tantek
that's the point - to not have to care about the nested object if you don't need those details
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aaronpk
if we can make the h-entry spec say that the value of the "comment" properties must always be a URL, then as a consumer I can always expect a URL as the value, whether there's an h-cite, h-entry or it's just a URL
#
aaronpk
for native comments, the URL of the comment might be a fragment ID which is fine
#
aaronpk
then h-cite becomes a way to augment the "comment" value with additional data beyond the comment's URL
#
aaronpk
that's how I imagine effectively using the "value" fallback
#
aaronpk
does that make sense? I can try to re-word if necessary
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kylewm
that does make sense
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kylewm
if you can't depend on h-cite value being a url, then it doesn't help you that it's sometimes a url
#
kylewm
if you can't depend on h-cite value always being a url, then it doesn't help you that it's sometimes a url
#
aaronpk
right. and if the spec requires that the value is a URL, then if it's not a URL I can assume it's an error
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tantek
except putting the burden on a publisher is misleading
#
tantek
because you can't actually depend on it
#
tantek
so making it a must only deceives consuming code into a bad assumption
#
aaronpk
you can't depend on anything
#
tantek
right - however, that didn't stop people from misimplementing Atom
#
aaronpk
but you can say "it's only useful when _____"
#
tantek
because feed readers assumed hey if the spec it must be x
#
tantek
then I'll write my code that way
#
tantek
that's literally how people write consuming code in practice
#
aaronpk
you can never trust external data. that's not the point
#
tantek
that's not the point, the point is coders don't act that way
#
aaronpk
in this case we're talking about literally a one-character difference so i dont think it's really a burden
#
tantek
regardless of any guidance, we have to say what the consuming code should do in either case
#
aaronpk
the burden is whether the publisher marks up the h-cite or not
#
tantek
anything you ask the publisher to do that isn't immediately obvious adds burden
#
tantek
as you or others said above about not bothering
#
aaronpk
the easy thing for the publisher is to *only* mark up the URL of the comment with "u-comment"
#
tantek
right
#
aaronpk
the harder thing to do is to make it an h-cite
#
tantek
that's a good starting point
#
aaronpk
so i'm saying if you're going to make it an h-cite, then you should use "u-comment h-cite"
#
aaronpk
and as a consumer, if you encounter a value of an h-cite that is not a URL, then don't use it
#
tantek
I suppose the question is, what's the benefit of the additional h-cite markup
#
tantek
?
#
tantek
(for both publishers and consumers0
#
tantek
0
#
tantek
)
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aaronpk
the benefit to the consumer is they can use the values of the comment text and author h-card without fetching the external comment
#
tantek
btw re: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos fragments - perhaps we should do two pages for before/after demos?
#
tantek
or I've cheated in the past by using first / short names in one list, then full names in another
#
aaronpk
mediawiki already handled it by adding _2 to the second list of names
#
tantek
also I think all the Brighton pages got put under /2015/Brighton/
#
aaronpk
https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Demos#Tantek_2
#
tantek
wat whoa haven't seen that before
#
aaronpk
but i'm not opposed to splitting it into two pages
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tantek
It would probably be a more robust pattern for future camps that copy/paste the Schedule page with links to the usual sessions
#
tantek
maybe Intro Demos vs Hack Demos ?
#
aaronpk
sure
#
aaronpk
or did we decide to not call it "hack" anymore?
#
tantek
no we'll just expand on what hack means
#
tantek
I mean heck, Science Hack Day is similar in that respect
#
tantek
most of what people do and demo there has nothing to do with coding
#
tantek
renaming something to something more obscure/general is usually a really bad way to solve a meaning / communication problem
#
tantek
that's how you end up with crappy abstractions like "Actor" because hey "author" seems grammatically awkward in some cases
#
tantek
better to use a reasonably accurate existing term that people understand than a more precise term that you have to explain
#
aaronpk
i thought we had said "creator" or something
#
tantek
no that was the earlier change from Builder to Creator
#
GWG
I'm trying to decide if I am going to be up in time for IWC Edinburgh.
#
tantek
which we still have
#
tantek
but hack has always been hack
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aaronpk
k
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KevinMarks
so it seems we are hitting the 'mf2 consumers need to sniff for type' issue a fair bit
#
tantek
we are?
#
KevinMarks
per that comment discussion above, and previous issues with cards
#
tantek
what sniffing did cards need?
#
tantek
is this the same kind of conflation that people do when they say scrape when they mean parse
#
tantek
that is, there should be no reason to sniff anything with cards
#
KevinMarks
the url/text dichotomy on a property,
#
tantek
you're always just grabbing the first h-*
#
KevinMarks
the html/text dichotomy
#
tantek
no those are in separate properties
#
KevinMarks
and the text/embedded object's name
#
tantek
and it's pretty big leap from url/text to "sniff for type"
#
KevinMarks
OK, it is a mix of conditional code and the url/text sniff
#
aaronpk
if by "sniff for type" you mean "sanitize" then sure
#
aaronpk
sanitize/validate
#
tantek
conditional code is hardly sniffing
#
tantek
neither is sanitizing/validating
#
tantek
so yeah, this is like people saying "scrape" when they're actually talking about parsing
#
KevinMarks
so http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks
the note there is text
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KevinMarks
(in the h-card)
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KevinMarks
http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io&html=&pretty=on
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tantek
forgets how long unmung takes on his home page ;)
#
KevinMarks
I should make it cache globally with etag/last modified
#
Loqi
I agree
#
KevinMarks
with bent he note is an html/value pair 'cos he used e-
#
aaronpk
tantek: this is actually why I want the "h-entry" vocab to say that the "comment" property is a URL
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tantek
but of course we can assert no such thing
#
Loqi
gives aaronpk the "h
#
aaronpk
because if consumers are expected to actually use both URL and non-URL values, then you *do* have to sniff for type
#
tantek
we can merely suggest best practices
#
aaronpk
I would rather tell consumers to ignore non-URL values rather than use them
#
aaronpk
which is validating
#
tantek
we could say that true
#
KevinMarks
if it can be url, text or html, then you have to write more convoluted code
#
aaronpk
there's a big difference
#
tantek
KevinMarks, as noted, it's not expected to be text or html
#
tantek
those are already provided in separate fields - please stop conflating
#
tantek
and just because you have conditional code does not mean you are "sniffing"
#
tantek
(e.g. checking for 'value' first before array index)
#
KevinMarks
http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnote%2F2015%2F7%2F20%2F6%2F&html=&pretty=on
#
KevinMarks
comment there is an h-cite
#
KevinMarks
not a url
#
KevinMarks
so you have to check if it is a dictionary first
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: this is what i'm saying
#
KevinMarks
then see if it has a url
#
aaronpk
there is a standard code path of "if object, use value. if string, use it directly"
#
KevinMarks
in its properties
#
tantek
KevinMarks, that's just transitional because we're switching from p-comment h-cite to u-comment h-cite. sheesh
#
KevinMarks
well, if array of string
#
aaronpk
you can avoid needing to look at the "url" property of the h-cite if the value of the h-cite *is* that url
#
aaronpk
so the standard code path never needs to know about data types of teh object
#
aaronpk
if value is always representative
#
tantek
right
#
tantek
aaronpk - I think we should design consuming algorithms that way
#
aaronpk
i agree
#
tantek
and just make them defensive about other possibilities
#
tantek
rather than try to "handle" them
#
aaronpk
that's a good way of putting it
#
aaronpk
that's what i've been trying to describe
#
tantek
the quicker people can check to see if their code is "correct" the better
#
KevinMarks
so that is consuming algorithms rather than parsers
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: yes
#
KevinMarks
OK
#
KevinMarks
hence the utils suggestion
#
KevinMarks
(from earlier)
#
aaronpk
right
#
KevinMarks
given a mf2-parsed output of a page, extract certain kinds of indie-useful structure
#
aaronpk
one could write a generic "get_value" function which is basically: if(is_string(property)) return property; elseif(is_object(property)) return property.value
#
KevinMarks
so do we define those as a json->json mapping
#
KevinMarks
or a json->html mapping (for injecting into the page)
#
KevinMarks
if we want them to be testably consistent across languages, I mean
#
aaronpk
json->json maybe, like defining a super simple JSON structure that corresponds to a "comment"
#
aaronpk
then writing a funciton that turns one element of an h-entry's "comment" properties into that structure
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KevinMarks
and then the 'how to markup' part mappingback into html is a template of choice issue
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KevinMarks
the salmention issue makes this concrete as it does assume some kind of html->json->html->json->html cycle
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aaronpk
yes. well, html->parsed->html->parsed->html. JSON is not actually part of the picture
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aaronpk
nowhere in my code does the HTML page actually get transformed to JSON, it gets parsed from HTML to native data structures
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KevinMarks
OK, I'm using JSON as a shorthand for 'dynamic language structure'
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KevinMarks
which I suppose is python/javascript bias
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aaronpk
yea, just wanted to be explicit for the logs ;)
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KevinMarks
as PHP they're a bit different
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KevinMarks
in that telling an array from a dict is more nuanced
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KevinMarks
hm if frontendy are self-dogfooding why writ on medium? https://medium.com/@frontendy/be-the-early-adopters-of-your-product-d6888305ca6c
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@kevinmarks
so @frontendy, if you're slef-dogfooding your web-building product, why are you writing on medium and not your own site? #indieweb (twtr.io/11vUKxaePE8)
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aaronpk
#irony
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aaronpk
wow they even say "dogfooding"
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aaronpk
omg the website field of their twitter account is their medium profile
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KevinMarks
and the 'learn more' link on their website is also their medium profile
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aaronpk
sigh
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@AlexKKearney
Patched together reply-to and micropub today. All in all, I guess that's productive. #indieweb http://kongaloosh.com/e/2015/7/23/patched-to (twtr.io/11vbBjv3E3j)
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KartikPrabhu
today in not self-dogfooding, Facebook Design stories on Medium: https://medium.com/facebook-design
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@ricksmithbooks
Learn how to publish your PAPERBACK with CreateSpace on Amazon. #selfpub #IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RPP01H0/ref=cm_sw_su_dp (twtr.io/11vcgb2cj28)
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@kartik_prabhu
@RudigerMeyer I haven’t figured out how to do automatic webmentions yet either. (twtr.io/11vd6DK0Pxs)
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KevinMarks_
https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/624096161339576320
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@Pinboard
Someday we’ll look back on this weird fad of publishing on Medium, and none of the pages will render (twtr.io/11vhSf4aoyf)
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@kevinmarks
https://www.youtube.com/ I love that @aaronpk got to use his own music to dramatise this SWAT0 demo #indieweb (twtr.io/11vkf0LY_R4)
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