2018/NYC/Organizers

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The Organizers Meetup is a half-day of activities and sessions the day (2018-09-26) before IndieWebCamp NYC 2018, for everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp in the past two years or at least two Homebrew Website Club meetups with at least one meetup photo.

Who

Similar to 2018/Organizers, the Organizers Meetup sessions are open to everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp from 2015-2018, planning an IndieWebCamp later this year, or co-organized at least two Homebrew Website Club meetups during those years, and posted at least one meetup photo. If you’re not sure, ask an organizer.

RSVP

RSVP here on this page ( https://indieweb.org/2018/NYC/Organizers if you will be participating in the Organizers Meetup:

Remote Participation

If you can't make it in person but you're available to participate remotely, please add yourself below. Please note that we'll likely make use of the Video Conference room remote conference setup at Pace University.

Regrets

Sorry to miss you, let us know if you can't make it and we'll try to reach out with specifics that may apply to your city.

  • …

When

–

Remote participants in other zones can’t attend breakfast. Meeting times:

  • PDT: 07:30-11:30 (UTC-7)
  • UTC: 14:30-18:30
  • BST: 15:30-19:30 (UTC+1)
  • CEST: 16:30-20:30 (UTC+2)

Schedule

Times are EDT (UTC-4) unless noted otherwise

  • 09:30 Organizers breakfast Hole in the Wall NYC - 15 Cliff St in the Financial District
  • 10:30 Organizers Summit
  • 14:00 Organizers Summit Wrap-up & Next Steps
  • 14:30 Organizers Summit closes and
  • 14:45 Lunch/Dinner Gao Taco
  • ??:?? Optional: Walk across Brooklyn Bridge
  • 19:00 Meetup Dead Rabbit Grocery and Grog

Other Organizers related activities (just FYI, unless you want to help)

  • ...



Where

  • breakfast 9:30am Hole in the Wall NYC - 15 Cliff St in the Financial District
  • Seidenberg School of Computer Science and Information Systems
    163 William Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10038. VC Conference Room. (map)
  • lunch TBD
  • offsite / group activity TBD
  • dinner after TBD

Planning

  • When/where? More specifics!
    • figure out all TBDs in previous section
    • morning = remote participation with US organizers?
    • break for dinner / random organizer bonding activity

What

Specific, timely suggestions for this Organizers Meetup by folks who will be there (otherwise please add to: Organizers#next).

Meta: this list is

  • Unordered
  • To be prioritized by Organizers in-person at the meetup
  • Inevitably incomplete (feel free to bring up more topics in https://chat.indieweb.org/meta)
  • May have some items pre-empted by existing/longer-term Organizers#Issues (and that's ok).

What:

  • Tantek Çelik meta on Leaders Summit / Meetup
    • What did we think we did right / better / worse compared to last year?
    • What did we leave open / unresolved from 2018/Leaders#Next_Time?
    • What new community challenges have we encountered since?
    • What are the most important things we can do to improve the community in the coming uyear?
    • Which of those are the easiest / most scalable?
  • ✅ Aaron Parecki: Slack/IRC admin help - mods, permissions, deleting spam
  • gRegor Morrill Decide on workflow for Leaders Issues proposed 2018-09-11
    • tl;dr: Where do new issues go and how do we track them through next steps/did-not-finish/completion?
    • Leading up to 2018/Leaders there was confusion because that page was originally copy-pasta from 2017/Leaders, including the sessions. People started adding comments to those sessions as if they were new. On top of that, Leaders had a list of actually-new issues. In chat, before 2018/Leaders, Tantek Çelik said we should keep new issues to Leaders. I took some time to split out new-for-2018 comments and merged them into Leaders. Day-of 2018 Leaders, we prioritized sessions in etherpad and they ended up in one of three sections based on whether there were totally done, had todo items, or we did not get to discuss them.
    • Here's my proposal for the workflow: User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox
    • +1 Tantek Çelik
  • Tantek Çelik: Homepage update (and principles update, complete work from 2018/Leaders). We did major updates in 2014 (the three icons/points), 2016 (new skin, lots of wording updates). It's reasonable to do another update of the home page this year (2018) with everything we've learned as well as the growth of the community and new services like micro.blog, consider feedback like ”remove all the nerdiness“, and reconsider remaining 2016 ideas. I'd like to do at least a draft of this (homepage update) during IWC NYC at a minimum as a 2018/NYC/Leaders session to start with, and possibly a session on IWC NYC day 1.
  • Tantek Çelik: Homepage update: three paths - a specific brainstorm for the above.
    • We might benefit from a 2-3 track home page - address the "only for self-coders" misimpression/misframing
    • I think we roughly need three tracks for three generations at this point (I think we are that spread out)
    • 1. (gen 3, savvy users, no/low admin) Want to switch to IndieWeb? Here's how (micro.blog etc.)
    • 2. (gen 2, WordPress users who are familiar adminning their own install, use plugins etc.) Want to use your WordPress on the IndieWeb? Here's how (step by step tutorial for plugins, configuring them, testing posting+POSSE+backfeed)
    • 3. (devs, gen 1) Want to make your own indieweb site? Here's how (existing Getting Started docs)
      • make it clear this is also for you if you are building software for other people, like micro.blog
      • whether you're building a site for one or for thousands, here's how you can do it (to address misconception/misframing of "build things that only you will use")
      • at the same time, there is a lot of value in the principle of building for yourself, just in this case it means make sure the thing you're building for other people you also use yourself
    • we order it in that way because better to appeal to the gen 3 folks first (there are more of them), and quickly help them before they get confused / overloaded. the WordPress crowd will find the WordPress path, IF it is labeled as such for them. and the homegrown / coder crowd will find read everything til they find the github links etc. and keep going
    • I think if we look at rethinking the home page for these three "tracks", it will help illuminate how we need to update other pages linked from the home page like /principles
    • we could literally have three equal width columns, each roughly the width of a typical mobile portrait display, different background colors, maybe even different font choices
    • scroll down with different "bands" of background brightness for different "topics"
    • e.g. join the discussion: #indieweb #indieweb-wordpress #indieweb-dev
    • column layouts like that become tabs on mobile with the bright backgrounds of each in each tab, with summaries
      • | Join the IndieWeb | WordPress users | Developers |
      • defaulting to Join the IndieWeb, expecting Wordpress / Developers to self-select
    • so it looks good both on desktop and mobile
  • ✅ Tantek Çelik Move IndieWeb/IndieWebCamp tweets to meta (also include typo IndiWeb)
    • From reviewing the past 5+ days of tweets (2018-09-06..11) going to the #indieweb channel and most of them are dev-related, some are -meta related, and a few (very few) are higher level indieweb user-centric related
    • We already have some dev-related keywords going to #indieweb-dev (like Webmention)
    • I'd be up for switching whatever tweets currently make it to #indieweb to instead go to #indieweb-meta
    • For *tweets* only in particular, that is:
      • I still think we should surface indieweb #indieweb posts to the main channel (from WebSub / Superfeedr)
      • Twitter has also become more negative (regardless of topic), thus meta is better than main for that because we can discuss the meta aspect of such negativity if necessary rather than having them pollute and "bring down" the main channel (recent indieweb tweets seem fairly positive, though we've seen negative attacks before which typically are about some meta issue, not anything actually directly indieweb applicable to someone's personal site)
    • See also: 2018/Leaders#reduce_chat_noise and 2018/Leaders#Task_List
    • Thoughts?
  • ...

Sessions

Please review 2018/Organizers#Next_Time and propose new topics on Organizers#Issues.

Notes archived from https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2018-NYC-Leaders.

Local Participants

Remote Participants

Move IndieWeb/IndieWebCamp tweets to meta

Friendly bot Loqi finds tweets with certain keywords and echoes them to certain #indieweb-* channels. Tantek Çelik noticed that many of the tweets were often -dev / technology related, or -meta related about the community, rather than at a high-level that would be interesting and engaging for newcomers in the main #indieweb channel.

  • proposed simple patch: tweets with "indieweb", "indiewebcamp", "indiweb" keywords go to -meta
    • we already look for related keywords for tweets to redirect to -dev, like "webmention"
    • this would effectively drop tweets from the main channel.

Additional issue: Twitter has also become more negative (regardless of topic), thus meta is better than main for that because we can discuss the meta aspect of such negativity if necessary rather than having them pollute and "bring down" the main channel (recent indieweb tweets seem fairly positive, though we've seen negative attacks before which typically are about some meta issue, not anything actually directly indieweb applicable to someone's personal site)

Discussion: create a channel dedicated to these automated notifications.

Consensus in the room: let's make the simple tweak and put IndieWeb-related tweets in -meta

Where should wiki edits go?

Related to above Tweet issue: Loqi also notifies #indieweb-dev and #indieweb-meta of certain edits on the indieweb.org wiki.

  • this can lead to mixed three-way discussion
    • chat in the channel
    • tweets that fit criteria to show up in a certain channel (typically unrelated)
    • wiki edits (also sometimes unrelated to ongoing discussion)

Another option to consider is how can folks who've been away for a while and want to quickly catch up on edits/changes do so? -- Chris Aldrich

  • there is a page for this, (https://indieweb.org/Special:RecentChanges). It has a feed! (can we add h-feed to RecentChanges?)
  • some people wait for TWITIWAE
    • this is summarized by a human. Marty McGuire
      • omits things like punctuation changes, small reorganization, etc.
      • zooms in on certain other small edits, like links to articles

Options:

1. move them all to -meta (except WordPress related pages go to #indieweb-wordpress)

    • local participants agree that wiki edits fit the criteria to be in -meta and currently aren't too noisy for that channel.

2. create a new channel just for wiki notifications

    • it's really hard to un-create a channel once it exists.
  • some edit notifications already go to -wordpress (generally: if Wordpress is in the title).
    • these are low volume, so we'll leave it.

General consensus:

  • keep Wordpress-page-related notifications to -wordpress
  • send all other wiki notifications to -meta
  • Aaron Parecki implemented it during the meeting.

IRC/Slack Admin Help

currently there are a handful of people w/ admin privs in ChanServ on IRC.

IRC op is confusing. We have some docs on wiki but probably need to improve those.

    • another anti-feature of having ops: you will see all spam in the channel.

smaller handful ( Aaron Parecki, Tantek Çelik, Eddie Hinkle) have slack admin access

Is there a list of people who have this access already? and in which places (IRC/Slack)

  • proposal: document the list of people who have access to ops, admin status, web logs on the wiki
    • Slack: Aaron Parecki, Tantek Çelik, eddie (confirmed)
    • IRC (ChanServ): Aaron Parecki, ??? [Write to ChanServ: ACCESS #indieweb LIST]
    • Specifically need one or more who are watching the #Known channel which is awfully quiet[ KevinMarks: I could look at it from GMT - I am in slack a lot as my employers use it]
      • Chris Aldrich will volunteer, I'm in slack about 3/4ths of the time and somewhat frequently spend time in #Known
    • Sub-proposal: accept any leaders participant who wants to slack admin
      • it is a level of responsibility: can delete any message, real or spam.
    • Sub-proposal: during spam waves we have issues kicking spam accounts – not captured by Loqi – during EU hours; get extra IRC ops (not just Slack).
      • Martijn van der Ven knows about basic ChanServ interactions, is founder on -leaders, and would vollunteer for this.
  • proposal: better document how to deal with spam in all three places

web chat logs are managed via a git repo, which a handful of folks have access to.

removing spam involves:

  • remove lines from git repo for web logs that we publish at chat.indieweb.org
  • removing them from slack (not documented but admins can remove lines via the slack app)
  • to a lesser extent, kicking spammers from rooms is also important, but much of this is automated by Loqi.

Proposals/Ideas:

  • During sustained attacks, posting links to instructions for !kick can be helpful for those who may not know how (as well as occasional reminders maybe ~1/month?) (https://indieweb.org/IRC#Advanced_.2F_Admin_notes )
    • is there a single link that is more high-level than the link above?
    • loqi could respond if folks start talking about "spam" a lot in the channel
  • Deleting from the web archive logs requires editing files and committing them to github, as well as Aaron Parecki pulling those changes down from github.
    • Aaron Parecki has some personal scripts that make this easier, but it is still several steps.
    • could give this a UI on chat.indieweb.org, at some dev effort cost.
      • why not? it's a lot of work, and we might not need it if spam wave stops.
    • editing chat log archive logs directly in GitHub visual editor is also not that bad

Actions:

  • Aaron Parecki promoted slack admins: Kevin Marks, Chris Aldrich, Greg McVerry, Marty McGuire
  • zegnat volunteers to be an IRC chan ops admin to have coverage during EU hours ( Aaron Parecki will do this / did this during the meeting)
    • will also add IRC chan ops documentation
      • Interesting one to document: /msg NickServ LISTCHANS – shows in what channels the user has ops/rights
    • chan ops will want to -o to not see spam. Make this clear in documentation. Ops can use ChanServ to control things instead.
      • Aaron Parecki points out that chanops are not required to have loqi !kick accounts that have joined < 5 minutes ago (hilight this in documentation again)

projects using indieweb.tld domains

new projects have popped up (indieweb.xyz, indieweb.me) using IndieWeb in their top-level domain.

concerns:

  • Aaron Parecki - we are barely an org with a formal structure.
    • setting up services that provide identity, particularly indieweb-branded identity, might go against indieweb principles.
      • (e.g. indieweb.me is a mastodon instance which lets people make indieweb-branded identities)
        • admin who set up indieweb.me is interested in updating mastodon to support more indieweb features, but doesn't have a dev roadmap for it at this time.
          • Tantek Çelik - this could provide some good name recognition for indieweb within mastodon/"fediverse"
          • zegnat(?) - proposed a bridge service to send/receive webmentions on behalf of indieweb.me
      • indieweb.xyz is an aggregator, so doesn't present the same problem.
  • How to balance discouraging them, but also potentially having the org "own" the domains to prevent squatting or spam usage?
  • For examples look at how we're handling tangential or outside sites:
  • Aaron Parecki - slippery slope issue? as indieweb-named services appear that are further away from indieweb community / principles, will that encourage more people to set up things named indieweb?
    • What about the next wave of micro.blog-type businesses?
    • example: indiewebcamp is an event. if indiewebcamp.xyz was registered and clearly not related to the events, that's easy to understand how to deal with.
      • indieweb is more loosely defined and therefore easier to stretch the definition. (using the name indie by itself is not a problem - see ndie)
  • Tantek Çelik spoke about prior examples for Microformats and BarCamp and how they handled this
    • attempted summary: leaving them alone led to them not being a problem.

List of IndieWeb related properties within the community

Proposals:

  • The Wiki should have a list of IndieWeb "owned" domains and synopses of what they are/who controls the URL
  • Aaron Parecki: define what the term indieweb should mean and give examples of good use. Tantek Çelik suggests indieweb for it, where we may have stubs for this.
    • David Shanske: what about business entities trying to use the term in their name, or product/service name?
  • Create FAQ about how to set up pieces of infrastructure
    • Name your thing for what it does rather than for the IndieWeb branding
          • HWC renaming (for future consideration) - finding challenges in attracting new attendees for HWC maybe a more appropriate name speaking of what describes the meetup best

Actions:

  • document "good" use of the term indieweb. from style-guide:
    • "IndieWeb" is a proper noun. It refers to the indieweb movement, which encompasses websites such as indieweb.org, events like IndieWebCamp, and various technologies including microformats.
    • add IndieWeb Summit to style guide.
    • add to style guide a section about indieweb-related domains and using the indieweb name in them:
      • e.g. "running your own indiewebcamp? great, feel free to put that in the domain. same with HWC" (e.g. belgium HWC)
      • "your product or service can *be* indieweb without using the name indieweb". naming based on what it does is more encouraged. e.g. telegraph.
        • encouraging the "indie" prefix also seems fine.
      • But we could also encourage to chat with one of the leaders about using internal community space than necessarily creating something new outside of it -- or at least be welcoming about it for those who would like to
        • Tantek Çelik: want people to have space to experiment. Aaron Parecki: don't want to control the name.
        • Aaron Parecki: people may be setting up services outside the wiki because they don't know that they can use the wiki (or how to use the wiki or desire plurality).

IndieWeb "Leaders" word choice

Aaron Parecki has a small concrete proposal. rename "Leaders" meetings to "Organizers" meeting.

Why?

  • "Leader" term suggests an intentional hierarchy.
  • We want to encourage anyone to become an organizer!

Still drawing a distinction between people that volunteer for an event versus people who organize an event, because it's a different commitment.

This is how we're defining it in practice: "The Leaders Summit is a half-day of activities and sessions before IndieWeb Summit 2018, for everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp in the past two years or at least two Homebrew Website Club meetups with at least one meetup photo." via 2018/Leaders

Feedback

Actions:

Completed:

Homepage Updates (Three Paths)

Greg McVerry summarizes Tantek Çelik's proposal of three branching "getting started" sections on homepage:

  • gen3 (savvy users, no or low admin reqs)
  • gen2 (WordPress admins, Known? other self-hosted CMS with IndieWeb features?)
  • gen1 (devs)

Now that Known seems to be moving forward again, perhaps adding it along with WordPress (or Perch or other options that pop up in the future with multiple IndieWeb pieces either already built in or with simple plugin support)

Differentiator between some reasonable admin set up versus one click solutions....

... returning to this in a moment after jumping to Meta Organizers meetup planning planning below...

... returned ~2pm ...

Presentation of the three "paths"

  • Tantek Çelik proposes 3 vertical columns, one column per audience, with similar sub-section (e.g. Getting Started) with slightly different summaries
  • Aaron Parecki: eventually this all gets too narrow and everything has to go into vertical blocks

Discussion about side-by-side design challenges.

We're essentially building a sales funnel... Maybe the homepage should move people to the getting started page that then breaks the groups down into segments and from there into separate specific pages?

Break up the "Join the IndieWeb" section on the homepage into three columns

Use verbs for what people what to do rather than use nouns to define them (i.e. let them define themselves)

  • E.g. for "Getting Started"
    • "Sign Up" (micro.blog)
    • "WordPress" (it can be a verb!)
    • "Do It Yourself" (developer folks)

Also to break up:

  • Chat
    • #indieweb
    • #indieweb-wordpress
    • #indieweb-dev
  • "Stay Up-to-Date"?
    • ???
      • we don't really have a "what's going on in the indieweb" model that is aimed at people new to the community or have no interest in development.
      • new community members from This Week newsletter? a micro.blog user can sign into the wiki, so they could make their user page.
    • This Week newsletter but wordpress
    • this week newsletter + direct link to recent wiki changes

For narrower-width screens, where the columns collapse, we need a nav that signposts that there are multiple sections.

  • "Join the IndieWeb"
    • based on examples from mastodon.social, micro.blog, which target people who just wanna sign up and go.
  • "WordPress"
  • "Do It Yourself"

Other sections:

  • "Contribute" (a.k.a. give back to the community)
    • ??? donate?
    • join the wordpress community, give feedback, ...
    • build stuff. (contribute code)
    • community building (events, volunteering)
    • help others
    • outreach (heart emoji) / PR
    • contribute to the wiki?
  • Explain our philosophy (e.g. the later sections on beyond blogging and decentralization) (aka Why?)
    • the existing content is totally targeted at devs and answering past philosophical arguments. becomes the third column.
    • for wordpress: "make wordpress your home for everything" "Democratize Social" "realize your wordpress dreams". basically: wordpress promises a lot that you have to do a lot more work to deliver.
    • for "sign up now" folks?... look at /why and pull out some specifics. there's a lot!
    • "The last social network you'll ever need to join..."
  • Events
    • can we reframe HWC to be appealing to "sign up" people?
      • micro.blog has meetups! pretty much every service has had "tweetups", "instagram meetups", etc. blogging used to have meetups.
      • "IndieWeb Meetups"
      • Maybe Micro.blog Meetups are for column 1 (Listing Page: https://burk.io/micromeetup/, There is also a link to an iCal feed on that page)
    • wordpress?
      • Greg McVerry does "HWC Blogging 101". might also be suitable for the first thing.
      • Marty McGuire is the only person at HWC Baltimore that isn't heavily using WordPress!
    • HWC can maybe still be column 3... UNLESS IT'S ONLY COLUMN 2! :scream_emoji:
      • Marty McGuire keeps having people ask if HWC Baltimore is about beer brewing.
      • IndieWebCamps might be column 3. they are usually the cutting edge of development, require extra travel effort, ...

"I've been running a WordPress meetup for two years and didn't know" -- Marty McGuire

More Information section

  • meant for people who have run out of stuff to read on the home page but want to keep diving in.
  • "Would You Like to Know More?"
  • Move "Stay up to date" content about newsletter to this section?

Translations section

  • also fine at the bottom.
  • maybe combine Translations and "Would You Like to Know More" into 2-columns below the 3-columns we've been designing.

Additions after the session:

Meta Organizers meetup planning planning

gRegor Morrill walked us through https://indieweb.org/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox

Ongoing basis: add topics / issues to /Organizers#Issues Prior to next actual meetup, organizers that will be going pull from this list into specific page. e.g. 2018/NYC/Organizers

  • any emergency discussion could go on this page directly
    • is there an easy way for people to add emergent discussion anonymously? commentpara.de perhaps?
      • if someone isn't comfortable adding an issue to the wiki or etherpad, they can have an Organizer do so as their proxy to preserve anonymity.
      • CoC has contact info for organizers
  • prioritize issues that were not discussed or closed at last Organizers meeting

After meetup: archive etherpad to wiki by Session. organize a Task List of action items. Missed topics into a Next Time section.

    • could name "Next Time" as "Tabled" or "Unresolved". Don't want to lock in discussion topics for people at the next meetup, which may have different participants.

For this particular meeting, we did not copy the entire list from 2018/NYC/Leaders into etherpad. Instead picking topics and only using etherpad to document sessions we actually discussed.

Actions

  • ✅ merge this discussion into gRegor's sandbox proposal
  • ✅ propose the merged proposal in the brainstorming section of Organizers
  • after review, move that out of brainstorming. possibly under #HowTo or #Issues.
  • also: note and link to these on individual Organizer Meeting / Summit pages
  • also also: individual Camp/Summit pages should have "Event Organizers" section, instead of "Organizers" section.

Task List

Note the tasks coming out of sessions.

  • ...

Next Time

These topics were suggested but did not get discussed at this Organizers Meetup.

  • ...

Photos

Breakfast

The Organizers on call (not all pictured)

Out for lunch

See Also

Retrieved from "https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=2018/NYC/Organizers&oldid=60553"