2022/Pop-ups/Displaying Responses

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Displaying Reponses is an upcoming IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2022 session.

Incorporating aesthetics and functionality for displaying responses and quotes from other sites on our websites. (Less about the technical how-to, more about interpersonal considerations and user-friendly styling.) We could also discuss the "should we" side of backfeed, which has come up in chat recently.

Details

  • Date: August 6, 2022
  • Time: 9:30 - 11:30 AM Pacific | 12:30 - 2:30 PM Eastern | 17:30 - 19:30 GMT+1
  • RSVP:
  • Video: ▶️02:57:01s

Organizers

Organizers, facilitators, and volunteers

Participation

Attendees

Interest

Those who expressed interest in the session during planning:

Notes

Possible Discussion Topics

  • https://indieweb.org/reply-context#Issues
  • Homepage/h-card mentions vs Page Mentions/Replies - Presentation and Other Considerations
    • David Shanske +1, James +1
    • Contexts where you would want to show webmentions on your home page?
  • "who is talking about me this {week/year}?"
    • separate page to show homepage webmentions?
  • capjamesg to bring up person tagging + his implementation
  • Levels of presentation based on the trust level of the individual sending the response
  • Non-traditional responses - such as not a mention or reply or other common item.
  • Different levels of presentations for reply-contexts based on content
  • Displaying of photos...current photo, historic photo, etc...
  • Allowing links?
  • how to display homepage mentions
  • how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
    • +1
  • how to display a blogroll
    • +1
    • +1
  • how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds
  • "should we?" for backfeed
  • Memex-like response display
  • whostyles - Displaying comments in the style of the original website...

Session One: Homepage Mentions

  • Cam Pegg -- homepage mention feels equivalent to @mention on Twitter
  • David Shanske -- may want to decide how to display on a case by case basis -- lots of use cases
  • may want to convert some homepage mentions to posts

Display locations for homepage mentions

Sorts of responses which might be sent to homepages as mentions, but which could be moved to alternate pages

Questions and prior art

  • Angelo Gladding -- do we differentiate based on the type of incoming mention? (e.g. blogroll with rel, h-entry)
  • Bridgy converts @mentions to homepage mention
  • "Follow of" posts -- social media sites all show follows / following
  • Sending mentions to different pages provides context, adds meaning
    • Chris Aldrich manually moves posts to appropriate pages (see list above)
  • capjamesg -- would like to see homepage mentions like 'notifications'
  • may want to indicate to readers where people can see mentions of homepage
  • David Shanske -- most homepage mentions received have been check-ins, tags, generic mentions
  • another possible type of person-tagging: live mentions, like at events
  • What is person-tagging etiquette?
  • How does one navigate this in a public social commons?
  • person-tagging with microformats

Person Mention Brainstorming

If the receiving page is an h-card or a author....then

  • if the target link to your home page is a u-invitee link, then you've been invited to the event linked to by the in-reply-to of that h-entry
  • someone tagged you in their (source) post, if the target link to your home page is a u-category link.
    • unless the containing h-entry has a u-tag-of link, in which case the source is merely tagging you in a different post, the post that the u-tag-of links to.

David Shanske added...

  • if it is marked up a reply - then it's a message to the person represented by the h-card.
  • if it marked up as a review - then it is a review/endorsement of the person

Collaborative posts / multi-author posts

  • collaborative posts -- how would a webmention work? if it's syndicated, would webmentions on one version get sent to both versions?
  • would co-author be an @mention? then they could reply with a 'co-signed' indication
    • is that a good use of webmentions?

Blogroll / "Following"

  • Chris Aldrich -- do people have an idea of who is following us?
  • capjamesg -- following is a snapshot in time
  • David Shanske For blogroll discovery, how about h-feed of u-follow-of h-card?
    • u-follow-of - I am following
    • u-follow - I am being followed by
  • capjamesg pointed out that to aid in discovery, we might need a rel attribute, e.g. rel='following','follow-list', etc. to indicate a follow list. Or some other option. (Rel=follow might be mistaken for something else)

Additional info that could be shared / displayed

  • similar to the thinking / doing / feeling pattern
  • post some contextual information about you when you were making the reply
  • to Chris Aldrich's point about sharing location context when you send a reply

Session Two: Showing others' content

  • capjamesg - show title of post, reply-context as it was when posted (no refresh)
  • have people consented to anything besides meta description?
  • do I feel right showing a profile image?
  • do I want to remove a like when something's been deleted?
  • Cam Pegg - beyond straight webmentions, backfeed from other platforms
    • for example, if someone removes a like on a post on Twitter, does that come through? -- concern about misrepresenting other people's positions
  • Sgreger's article on webmention backfeed privacy - https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr
  • does sending a webmention imply consent to display?
  • capjamesg -- most reservations about displaying others' images
  • formatting difference for post context vs. quotes?
  • Cam Pegg -- bringing in things from silos most concern
  • automatic vs. manual selection
  • capjamesg -- a question of expectation -- don't expect profile to be pulled in elsewhere -- feels different to display a profile pic vs. embed a tweet

Consent, licensing, privacy policies

  • David Shanske -- offer policy for manual deletion requests
  • David Shanske -- one-party consent in local regulations
  • capjamesg -- indicate consent / how to use your content on your website
  • Cam Pegg -- CC licenses, etc.
  • David Shanske -- do any common licenses indicate right to revoke? what do we think is respectful?
  • Angelo Gladding -- standard copyright
  • capjamesg -- could there be automated detection of privacy / use with webmentions? specifically for h-cards vs. webmentions?

Styling as solution

Using protocol

  • Tantek Çelik -- opt-in vs. opt-out permissions for use -- human perspective
  • can we incorporate opt-in into the protocol?

Addressing concerns about quoted content

Syndication policy

Multiple user photos

  • Gravatar -- updating an email's image changes hotlinked image on many other sites
  • Could you associate different avatars to different posts you make on your own website? E.g. Aaron Parecki homemade emoji photos

Displaying webmentions without photos / "Facepile cancer"

Why facepiles:

  • validation that your "like" worked, for seeing your own face in a facepile
  • perhaps some amount of social proof, for seeing others faces in a facepile
    • e.g. Instagram shows a mini face-pile of 3 tiny icons of people who liked a post, showing folks you follow before others, so you can quickly see that people you follow liked this post
  • indicator of quality -- Chris Aldrich: read / listen is more valuable than like / bookmark -- most bookmarks probably not read

Bookmarks and post types

  • Tantek Çelik: add a button to feed readers -- 'read' to send a read post, bookmark, etc
  • Chris Aldrich: has an RSS feed of his bookmarks
  • Chris Aldrich turns his "bookmark" posts into "read" posts as he reads them
  • WordPress draft Webmentions plugin displays reads and listens!

Visually organizing webmentions

What order are responses displayed? Are more valuable comments displayed higher?

> There is a strong correlation between comment quality and length; if you wanted to compare the quality of comments on community sites, average length would be a good predictor. Probably the cause is human nature rather than anything specific to comment threads. Probably it's simply that stupidity more often takes the form of having few ideas than wrong ones. - Paul Graham - http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html

Conversely:

> Whatever the cause, stupid comments tend to be short. And since it's hard to write a short comment that's distinguished for the amount of information it conveys, people try to distinguish them instead by being funny.

Action taken

Pre-Planning

Possible Discussion Questions and Topics

  • how to display homepage mentions
  • how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
  • how to display a blogroll
  • how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds
  • Thoughts on showing person-tag
  • Ideas around facepiles
  • Showing numbers (or omitting) them
  • how to display homepage mentions
  • how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
  • how to display a blogroll
  • how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds

Dates

Add your preferences below (using -1/0/+1 voting with your name and/or potential conflicts)

2022-07-16:

2022-07-30:

2022-08-06:

2022-08-13:

Resources

Previously

  • ...

IndieWebCamps

IndieWebCamps
2022 Analog Meets Online (P)Personal Libraries (P)Create Day March (P)DüsseldorfCreate Day July (P)Planning More Camps & Popups
2021 Respectful Responses (P)Webmentions Beyond Webmention.io (P) • Very Sensitive Data (P)Create Day July (P)Microsub (P)IndieAuth (P)Gardens and Streams II (P)Create Day October (P)IndieAuth 2 (P)DüsseldorfCreate Day December (P)
2020 OnlineAustin London (O)Garden & Stream (P)West (O)Micropub (P)IndieAuth (P)Get Started with WP (P)microformats2 (P)Friendly WP Themes (P)East (O)Create Day (O)
2019 AustinOnlineNew HavenBerlinDüsseldorfUtrecht9th IndieWeb Summit (Portland)AmsterdamOxfordNYCBrightonBerlin2SF
2018 BaltimoreDüsseldorf8th IndieWeb Summit (Portland)SFOxfordNYCNürnbergBerlin
2017 BellinghamDüsseldorfNürnberg7th IndieWeb Summit (Portland)IstanbulNYCBerlinAustin
2016 NYCMITNürnbergDüsseldorf6th IndieWeb Summit (Portland)NYC2BrightonLA (Santa Monica)BerlinMIT2
2015 Cambridge MAGermany (Düsseldorf)Portland&Brighton (5th Summit) • EdinburghMITSF
2014 SFNYCPortland/NYC/Berlin (4th Summit)UK (Brighton)Cambridge MAOnline
2013 Portland (3rd Summit)UK (Brighton)Hollywood
2012 Portland (2nd Summit)UK (Brighton)
2011 Portland (Summit)

See Also