2022/Pop-ups/Displaying Responses
💬 Displaying Reponses is an upcoming IndieWebCamp Pop-ups 2022 session.
Incorporating aesthetics and functionality for displaying responses and quotes from other sites on our websites. (Less about the technical how-to, more about interpersonal considerations and user-friendly styling.) We could also discuss the "should we" side of backfeed, which has come up in chat recently.
Details
- Date: August 6, 2022
- Time: 9:30 - 11:30 AM Pacific | 12:30 - 2:30 PM Eastern | 17:30 - 19:30 GMT+1
- RSVP:
- Video: ▶️02:57:01s
Organizers
Organizers, facilitators, and volunteers
Tracy Durnell - facilitatorDavid Shanske - tech host
- Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
Participation
Attendees
Interest
Those who expressed interest in the session during planning:
Jacky Alciné- Some things I'm also interested in seeing:
- Thoughts on showing person-tag
- Ideas around facepiles
- Showing numbers (or omitting) them
- Some things I'm also interested in seeing:
Chris Lott
Chris Aldrich
Notes
Possible Discussion Topics
- reply-context#Issues
- Homepage/h-card mentions vs Page Mentions/Replies - Presentation and Other Considerations
- Contexts where you would want to show webmentions on your home page?
- "who is talking about me this {week/year}?"
- separate page to show homepage webmentions?
capjamesg to bring up person tagging + his implementation- Levels of presentation based on the trust level of the individual sending the response
- Non-traditional responses - such as not a mention or reply or other common item.
- Different levels of presentations for reply-contexts based on content
- Displaying of photos...current photo, historic photo, etc...
- Pixelated/private avatars....
- Caching images?
- Allowing links?
- how to display homepage mentions
- how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
- +1
- how to display a blogroll
- +1
- +1
- how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds
- "should we?" for backfeed
- Memex-like response display
- https://www.kevinmarks.com/memex.html
- Kevin Marks has experimented with this a bit
- whostyles - Displaying comments in the style of the original website...
Session One: Homepage Mentions
Cam Pegg -- homepage mention feels equivalent to @mention on Twitter- may want to convert some homepage mentions to posts
Display locations for homepage mentions
Sorts of responses which might be sent to homepages as mentions, but which could be moved to alternate pages
- "ask me anything" (AMA) page
- endorsements page might be an option
- portfolio
- testimonials
- Mentions page
- Chris Aldrich uses this as his default storage/display location for homepage mentions
- https://boffosocko.com/mentions/
- FAQs
- responses on a page like this actually provide evidence it's actually an FAQ
- "Followed by" page -- social proof
- Guestbook page
- Pokes, "Yo" page - aggregates pokes
- Invites - invitations to particular events
- Note to self page (theoretical, does anyone have examples of this? or do they keep a to do list on their site for personal productivity?)
- could collect reminders from yourself
- Wall (Facebook prior art)
- does anyone have a "wall" on their site?
Questions and prior art
Angelo Gladding -- do we differentiate based on the type of incoming mention? (e.g. blogroll with rel, h-entry)- Bridgy converts @mentions to homepage mention
- "Follow of" posts -- social media sites all show follows / following
- Sending mentions to different pages provides context, adds meaning
- Chris Aldrich manually moves posts to appropriate pages (see list above)
- capjamesg -- would like to see homepage mentions like 'notifications'
- may want to indicate to readers where people can see mentions of homepage
- another possible type of person-tagging: live mentions, like at events
- What is person-tagging etiquette?
- How does one navigate this in a public social commons?
- person-tagging with microformats
Person Mention Brainstorming
If the receiving page is an h-card or a author....then
- if the target link to your home page is a u-invitee link, then you've been invited to the event linked to by the in-reply-to of that h-entry
- someone tagged you in their (source) post, if the target link to your home page is a u-category link.
- unless the containing h-entry has a u-tag-of link, in which case the source is merely tagging you in a different post, the post that the u-tag-of links to.
- if it is marked up a reply - then it's a message to the person represented by the h-card.
- if it marked up as a review - then it is a review/endorsement of the person
Collaborative posts / multi-author posts
- collaborative posts -- how would a webmention work? if it's syndicated, would webmentions on one version get sent to both versions?
- would co-author be an @mention? then they could reply with a 'co-signed' indication
- is that a good use of webmentions?
Blogroll / "Following"
- Chris Aldrich -- do people have an idea of who is following us?
- capjamesg -- following is a snapshot in time
- u-follow-of - I am following
- u-follow - I am being followed by
- capjamesg pointed out that to aid in discovery, we might need a rel attribute, e.g. rel='following','follow-list', etc. to indicate a follow list. Or some other option. (Rel=follow might be mistaken for something else)
- similar to the thinking / doing / feeling pattern
- post some contextual information about you when you were making the reply
- to Chris Aldrich's point about sharing location context when you send a reply
Session Two: Showing others' content
- capjamesg - show title of post, reply-context as it was when posted (no refresh)
- have people consented to anything besides meta description?
- do I feel right showing a profile image?
- do I want to remove a like when something's been deleted?
- Cam Pegg - beyond straight webmentions, backfeed from other platforms
- for example, if someone removes a like on a post on Twitter, does that come through? -- concern about misrepresenting other people's positions
- Sgreger's article on webmention backfeed privacy - https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr
- does sending a webmention imply consent to display?
- capjamesg -- most reservations about displaying others' images
- formatting difference for post context vs. quotes?
- Cam Pegg -- bringing in things from silos most concern
- automatic vs. manual selection
- capjamesg -- a question of expectation -- don't expect profile to be pulled in elsewhere -- feels different to display a profile pic vs. embed a tweet
Consent, licensing, privacy policies
- capjamesg -- indicate consent / how to use your content on your website
- Cam Pegg -- CC licenses, etc.
- Angelo Gladding -- standard copyright
- capjamesg -- could there be automated detection of privacy / use with webmentions? specifically for h-cards vs. webmentions?
Styling as solution
- reply-context#CRUD
- reply-context#Issues
- use styling to resemble embedded tweet to reduce surprise for silo owners
- people outside of academia not used to being quoted
- silo-based whostyles -- per silo -- provides (visual) context to reader about source
- Quotebacks
- "quote block"
- Pullquotes from books -- show cover -- Chris Aldrich: some Kindle annotation import tools can add this
Using protocol
Tantek Çelik -- opt-in vs. opt-out permissions for use -- human perspective- can we incorporate opt-in into the protocol?
Addressing concerns about quoted content
- Chris Aldrich -- author note that old posts may not reflect current views
- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/18/want-to-save-the-earth-then-dont-buy-that-shiny-new-iphone - The Guardian has a note about article published dates
Syndication policy
- http://syndication.theguardian.com/open-licence-terms/
- capjamesg -- post your personal Use Policy? or a Terms of Use
- use of different avatars authorized for different domains etc
Multiple user photos
- Gravatar -- updating an email's image changes hotlinked image on many other sites
- Could you associate different avatars to different posts you make on your own website? E.g. Aaron Parecki homemade emoji photos
Displaying webmentions without photos / "Facepile cancer"
- Facepile "cancer": the slow rotting of avatars and links in facepiles over time which turns rows of happy faces into generic avatars or missing/broken photos.
- https://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml - student content on university servers / software
- https://fireburn.ru/ - example of no-photo display of likes, replies, etc
Why facepiles:
- validation that your "like" worked, for seeing your own face in a facepile
- perhaps some amount of social proof, for seeing others faces in a facepile
- e.g. Instagram shows a mini face-pile of 3 tiny icons of people who liked a post, showing folks you follow before others, so you can quickly see that people you follow liked this post
- indicator of quality -- Chris Aldrich: read / listen is more valuable than like / bookmark -- most bookmarks probably not read
Bookmarks and post types
- Tantek Çelik: add a button to feed readers -- 'read' to send a read post, bookmark, etc
- Chris Aldrich: has an RSS feed of his bookmarks
- Chris Aldrich turns his "bookmark" posts into "read" posts as he reads them
- WordPress draft Webmentions plugin displays reads and listens!
Visually organizing webmentions
What order are responses displayed? Are more valuable comments displayed higher?
> There is a strong correlation between comment quality and length; if you wanted to compare the quality of comments on community sites, average length would be a good predictor. Probably the cause is human nature rather than anything specific to comment threads. Probably it's simply that stupidity more often takes the form of having few ideas than wrong ones. - Paul Graham - http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html
Conversely:
> Whatever the cause, stupid comments tend to be short. And since it's hard to write a short comment that's distinguished for the amount of information it conveys, people try to distinguish them instead by being funny.
Action taken
- Tantek Çelik: privacy-policy
Pre-Planning
Possible Discussion Questions and Topics
- how to display homepage mentions
- how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
- how to display a blogroll
- how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds
- Thoughts on showing person-tag
- Ideas around facepiles
- Showing numbers (or omitting) them
- how to display homepage mentions
- how to style webmentions (e.g. do you want posts from people you know to show up differently?)
- how to display a blogroll
- how to style 'quotes' for different post kinds
Dates
Add your preferences below (using -1/0/+1 voting with your name and/or potential conflicts)
2022-07-16:
- +1
- +1 Chris Aldrich
- +1 Tracy Durnell
2022-07-30:
- +1
- +1 Tracy Durnell
2022-08-06:
2022-08-13:
- +1
- +1 Tracy Durnell
- +1 Jacky Alciné
Resources
- Technology notes for those attending
- IndieWeb Chat: https://chat.indieweb.org/
- Loqi - our friendly chat bot will allow people to ask questions in the chat channels and attempt to answer them
- Etherpad: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/DisplayingResponses-Popup (for real time chat, questions, and note taking during the session)
- Note taking: Etherpad#How_to_take_notes_during_IndieWebCamp
- #hashtag: #DisplayingResponses
- Code of Conduct: This event is covered by the IndieWeb Code of Conduct. By participating, you're acknowledging your acceptance of this code.
Previously
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