Planning

From IndieWeb
(Redirected from 2015/planning)

Welcome to the planning page for future IndieWebCamps!

The IndieWebCamp community is planning numerous upcoming events, including future IndieWebCamps, regular Homebrew Website Club meetups, Popups, talks, and other proposals — if you'd like to help, please contribute to this page.

See individual IndieWebCamp home pages (typically /Year/City ) for specific camp planning. Related:

Planned

Tickets are open! Go register

Save Dates

The following IndieWebCamps have a confirmed date and venue, start planning travel! Tickets opening up soon!

  • ...

One Preferred Or Workable Date

The following IndieWebCamp(s) being planned have only one preferred or workable date, as proposed. Save the dates in your calendar. We cannot confirm these dates at this time though, so wait on booking any travel!

2025

Let's plan 2024 IndieWebCamps!

The IndieWebCamps in following subsections are currently being planned and need help figuring out a date - help co-organize!

We had a few in-person IndieWebCamps in 2021-2024, most of them Germany and one in San Diego, so let’s continue planning those, and we should try to plan an in-person IndieWeb Summit 2025, keeping in mind vaccinations, and regional Covid case rates. See IndieWebCamp Organizing: COVID precautions for more.

Let’s also continue planning online IndieWebCamps and single topic pop-ups, perhaps focused on particular timezones.

  • If you're interested in hosting an online camp or pop-up, go to Pop-up Planning page and write a stub for your event, or ask for help in the IndieWeb chat.

Locking in dates as far in advance as possible helps encourage the most attendance, especially farther away from venues/cities.

General planning date notes:

  • November first half is the likely last chance to plan an IndieWebCamp for the year.
  • December is tough due to holidays and lots of other events

2025 Holidays to keep in mind while planning

  • 2025-01-01 New Year's Day
  • 2025-02-14 Valentine's Day (Monday)
  • 2025-02-17 US President's Day
  • 2025-04-20 Easter
  • 2025-05-25 US Memorial Day
  • 2025-06-19 Juneteenth
  • 2025-06-28…29 Pride (SF, Seattle)
  • 2025-07-04 US Fourth of July (Thursday)
  • 2025-09-01 US Labor Day
  • 2025-09-22 Rosh Hashanah
  • 2025-10-01…02 Yom Kippur
  • 2025-10-31 Halloween
  • 2025-11-?? possibly btconf Berlin
  • 2025-11-27 US Thanksgiving
  • 2025-11-28 US Black Friday
  • 2025-12-24 Christmas Eve
  • 2025-12-25 Christmas Day
  • 2025-12-31 New Years Eve
  • ... insert others in date order

2025 events to plan adjacent to or avoid colliding with:


Keeping that in mind:

If you live in one of the cities / states / countries below and are interested, add your name!

If you know of a suitable venue for hosting, add that as a possibility.

If you have a particular month of the year to recommend, add that!

Please offer your opinion/preference with a nested list item and +1/0/-1 signed!

IndieWebCamps below are listed in order roughly by how "real" they appear for a specific city based on a few fuzzy criteria in rough order:

  • likely/confirmed co-organizers (especially local to the city co-organizers)
    • 2+ required, preferably 3-4 total
    • at least one (preferably 2) that is (are) regularly active in chat (IRC/Slack)
    • preferably at least 1 experienced organizer of a past successful IndieWebCamp
  • likely/confirmed venue
  • likely/confirmed dates
  • candidate dates (adjacent to an existing event folks would go to)
  • interest level of folks in those candidate dates

Other 2025 Events


Cambridge MA

Previous event: 2016/MIT2

Venue:

  • anyone have a connection to Microsoft NERD research campus?
  • other options?
  • let's try to avoid re-using MIT, plus W3C has moved out of MIT so we no longer have that connection
  • Dr. Matt Lee is looking at venues

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!

Possible/preferred months: April/May 2025

Possible dates?


Edinburgh

IndieWebCamp Edinburgh!

Venue: TBD

Ideas for venue:

  • Edinburgh Futures Institute (part of the University of Edinburgh)
  • CodeBase
  • ...

Organizers and facilitators:

  • capjamesg - local-to-the-city! venue, ticketing, etc.
  • Fran (who helps organize HWC Edinburgh) — interested in helping to organize
  • Add yourself here… (see this for more details)

previously 2019-2024 said could help co-organize:

Interested:

Previously interested (2020-2024)

Possible dates (add yourself to a date below!):


New York City

An IndieWebCamp over a weekend in NYC in the Spring!

Date: TBD. Spring

Venue: TBD

Co-organizers:

  • Ben Werdmüller local-ish (trainride away) is game to organize venue, food, logistics
  • David Shanske - local-ish (trainride away) can help organize, but despite decades of residency, not hooked into the tech scene or have any venue opportunities.
  • Marty McGuire local-to-the-city interested maybe in co-organizing
  • ...

Interested:

Possible dates:

Adjacent events:

  • ...


Portland

IndieWebCamp Portland 2025

Planning for the 11th IndieWebCamp Portland.

Venue possibilities:

  • ... nothing specific yet that we know of

Organizers:

  • Tantek Çelik — remotely (same timezone!) : can help organize an IWC Portland
  • Add yourself here… (see this for more details) if you have experience organizing at least one prior IndieWebCamp, otherwise volunteer!

Date:

  • TBD


Poll for possible Dates:

  • 2025-??-??…??
  • ... any other months/dates/cities/venues that folks could make work?

Dates — Opinions:


Previously: 2024/Portland


Brighton

This is a placeholder for IWC Brighton 2025 planning:

Can help co-organize:

2024:

Venue:

  • TBD

Date:

  • TBD

Nearby events:

  • none so far

Interested in participating!

2024 participated:

2024 was interested in participating:

Previously: 2024/Brighton


Düsseldorf

Main article: 2025/Düsseldorf

Organizers:

  • Tantek Çelik — remotely: wikifying; helping run day of
  • Marc Thiele — venue, some comms / promo with btconf emails / announcements
  • Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • Joschi Kuphal — sponsors wrangling, some remote participating equipment (360deg video)
  • ... looking for another organizer active in IndieWeb chat channels — speak up in #meta if you're interested!

Tentative organizers:

  • capjamesg — wikifying, perhaps gathering / coordinating volunteers

Venue ideas?

  • looking into SIPgate - Marc Thiele
  • maybe Trivago (used to sponsor BTconf, but that's been a while ago), rec. by a past participant — Tantek Çelik to ask Marc and/or look into directly
  • other past venues? (need to go back through archives and list them here to check)
  • ...

Interested (prospective attendees, in addition to Organizers above)

Potential Dates:

Beyond Tellerrand 2025 Berlin:

Conflicts / adjacent events:

  • ...


Berlin

Planning for IWC Berlin 2025!

Organizers:

Venue ideas?

  • ...

Interested (prospective attendees, in addition to Organizers above)

Potential Dates:

Beyond Tellerrand 2025 Berlin ?

Conflicts / adjacent events:

  • ...


San Diego

This section is a stub. You can help the IndieWebCamp wiki by expanding it.

IndieWebCamp San Diego!

Venue: TBD

Who is interested in helping co-organize and or facilitate?

  • TBD

Possible dates: (first or second weekend of December worked for 2023/SD, 2024/SD)

Interested


Summit

10th IndieWebSummit!

Planning dates and venue for an IndieWebSummit 2025, contingent on how many organizers can commit to making it happen, and our collective volunteer labor bandwidth to organize a full IndieWebSummit (which comes with higher expectations).

Venue possibilities maybe move to Seattle this year, or another city like NYC). Previously: Portland

  • ... nothing specific yet that we know of

Organizers:

Volunteers:

Summit date proposals

Dates — Opinions from 2024:

  • Tantek Çelik — I’m up for flexible Summit scheduling (delaying a few months, like possibly as late as October if that means we can do it in-person)
  • David Shanske - Concur with Tantek Çelik that it doesn't have to be in the summer necessarily. Also, we could try a split event as we've done in the past.
  • capjamesg - Keep me in the loop and I may attend!
  • Pablo Morales
  • Tracy Durnell - I like the idea of summer or fall when some activities can be outside!
  • Anthony Ciccarello - Planning to visit family in Washington in the summer. Would love to come to a summit if possible.
  • Ben Werdmüller - I would attend a fall summit just about anywhere. Also getting serious about a camp in NYC; could merge the two if it makes sense.
  • Add yourself here… (see this for more details)

Specific dates:

Vague dates:

Perennial considerations:

  • Adjacent events (avoid conflicts)
    • Pride weekend (last Saturday of June) in several cities "last weekend of June to cap off the month and to coincide with the anniversary of the Stonewall riots" per fluffy. Likely Seattle and San Francisco (extrapolating from past years)
  • ...



Nuremberg

2025 Possible dates:

Dates:

Who is interested in helping co-organize?

Interested in participating:

Participated in 2023:

Was interested in participating 2023:

Was interested in participating 2022

Interested in participating virtually:

Previously: 2023/Nuremberg


Online

Online East

IndieWebCamp East (Online)

Previous event: 2020/East

Venue: Online

Who is interested in helping co-organize and or facilitate?

Who is interested in helping (wiki, getting the word out etc.)

Possible dates:


Online Europe

Planning for a Europe timezone IndieWebCamp EU

Venue: Online

Who is interested in helping co-organize and or facilitate?

Who is interested in helping (wiki, getting the word out etc.)

Interested in attending/participating:

Possible dates:


Online West

IndieWebCamp West (Online)

Previous event: 2020/West

Venue: Online

Who is interested in helping co-organize and or facilitate?

Who is interested in helping (wiki, getting the word out etc.)

Possible dates:


Restart a Recent City

The following cities / venues hosted IndieWebCamps in the recent past (since 2018), however showed little or no activity in 2022 and thus are parked here until someone steps up to organize them.

Any still in this section in 2025 should be moved to Planning#Past_Cities.

If you would like to co-organize an IndieWebCamp in one of the following cities / venues, speak up in our #indieweb-meta chat channel and see if you can find a co-organizer! If you can, we’ll help with the wikifying, and move your city/venue to the 2023 section.

Notes from prior years planning attempts left in-place (or in HTML comments) in case that helps future planning.

Amsterdam

IndieWebCamp Amsterdam!

Possible Schiphol Airport?

Organizers:

Volunteers:

Interested:

Possible dates:

Adjacent events:

  • ...


Austin

Previous event: 2020/Austin

Organizers:

Venue:

  • Top choice at the moment: Easy Tiger East
  • renting out main room + outside tables for extra breakout sessions

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • depends a lot on cases, vaccination, various folks's comfort levels

Issues:

  • consider perhaps organizing as a locals-centric event
  • folks either not feeling safe or unwilling to travel to Texas due recent legislation (anti-abortion, anti-CRT, anti-trans, voter discrimination)
    • Consider matching travel expenses with donations to progressive organizations fighting on the ground in Texas.
    • Consider discussing how folx can help protect free speech and amplify BIPOC and LGBTQ+ voices through IW principles rather than simply skipping over potential host cities in red areas.


New Haven

Previous event: 2019/New Haven

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...

Adjacent events:

  • ...


Oxford

Previous event: 2019/Oxford

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...

Adjacent events:

  • ...


San Francisco

This is a placeholder for IndieWebCamp SF planning or brainstorming:

Previous event: 2019/SF

Venue: need a new venue! prior venues are unavailable

Who is interested in helping co-organize?

Interested in participating:

Possible Dates

Possible Adjacent events to consider:

  • Apple WWDC


Utrecht

Placeholder for IWC Utrecht!

Previous event: 2019/Utrecht

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating:


Past Cities

The following cities / venues hosted IndieWebCamps prior to 2019 and thus are parked here until someone steps up to organize them for 2023.

If you would like to co-organize an IndieWebCamp in one of the following cities / venues, speak up in our #indieweb-meta chat channel and see if you can find a co-organizer! If you can, we’ll help with the wikifying, and move your city/venue to the 2023 section.


Baltimore

Previous event: 2018/Baltimore

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...

Adjacent events:

  • ...


Bellingham

Previous event: 2017/Bellingham

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...


Los Angeles

IndieWebCamp LA!

Venue

  • Chris Aldrich is looking into UCLA
  • Yahoo! has previously expressed interest in hosting on their campus in West LA/Culver City
  • DreamHost may be interested in hosting. Ask Jonathan LaCour.

Who is interested in helping co-organize?

Interested in participating:

Possible dates:

  • Currently looking for a location and new dates for 2023+

Nearby events:

  • ???


New Cities Looking For A Co-organizer

The following cities / venues have had at least one local person express interest in organizing an event or have hosted a virtual event, so are parked here until a co-organizer steps up to help organize them for 2023.

If you would like to co-organize an IndieWebCamp in one of the following cities / venues, speak up in our #indieweb-meta chat channel and see if you can find a co-organizer! If you can, we’ll help with the wikifying, and move your city/venue to the 2023 section.

Dallas/Fort Worth

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...


London England

Previous event: 2020/London

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...

Adjacent events:

  • ...


London Ontario

Organizers:

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

  • ...


Sacramento

Venue Location (Outdoor Seating with COVID precautions in mind)

  • Temple Coffee - 2829 S St Sacramento, CA 95816

Who is interested in helping co-organize? We're still looking for more!! :

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates: Before it gets too hot in Sacramento - April, May, Early June? Any suggestions are welcome !

  • April 13-14
  • April 20-21
  • April 27-28, 2024
    • -1 - Passover
  • May 4-5, 2024
  • June 1-2, 2024
  • June 8-9
  • ...


New Cities Folks Would Travel To

People have requested events in these cities or expressed interest in attending if there was an event. There are no current organizers for these cities, so they are parked here until an organizer steps up to gather co-organizers for them.

If you would like to co-organize an IndieWebCamp in one of the following cities / venues, speak up in our #indieweb-meta chat channel and see if you can find a co-organizer! If you can, we’ll help with the wikifying, and move your city/venue to the 2023 section.


Barcelona

Venue: ???

Possible venue:

Can co-organize:

Previously (2019?) said could organize:

Interested in participating:

Possible dates: ?


Cambridge UK

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!


Chicago

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!


Denver

Possible Denver venues (aside: avoid Boulder apparently)

  • Name.com offices — need to confirm with name.com folks from 2019, maybe 2023+?
  • @thinkstudio at UC Denver ( Greg McVerry has a willing contact)
  • ...

Organizers

Volunteers

Interested in co-organizing

Interested in Attending

Possible Dates (Saturday & Sunday)

Adjacent events/conflicts:

  • ...


Florida Miami Orlando

IndieWebCamp Florida!

Venue: ???

Can help co-organize:

Previously (2016 era?) said could help co-organize:

  • Michael Bishop Tampa resident, willing to help plan a Central FL IWC if someone in Orlando area could help secure location.
  • Daniel Moch Orlando resident, can start scouting locations as soon as there's consensus on a date.
  • Add yourself here… (see this for more details)

Interested in participating!

  • Hector Iribarne
    • southeast Florida[1]
  • David Shanske
    • Miami - {gwg} would be interested in attending as interest was expressed.
  • Tantek Çelik definitely interested in returning to Orlando
  • Jacky Alciné I live close to Tampa!
  • Tyler Gillies I go annually to Orlando [January], would be cool to have one there.
  • David G. Johnson I live in Southwest Florida (Sarasota) but Tampa, Orlando or Miami are within easy driving distance. Planning to be in Miami in late Feb for WordCamp.
  • Shane Becker I'm interested in a Florida IWC, especially one where I can swim in the ocean or gulf easily.
  • ...

Possible dates:


Las Vegas

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!


Malmö

Venue: ???

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating:

Maybe align with a different event? Malmöfestivalen / The Conference / Øredev?

Needs interested participants and possible dates! Would also be helpful with some additional core contributors attending, to ensure enough content at event.

Would be great to set a date 4-6 months in advance, to ensure time to plan a proper event.


Manchester UK

IndieWebCamp Manchester

Venue: The Shed? (Part of MMU)

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!


Munich

  • placeholder for an IWC Munich 2023!

Organizers:

Interested in participating:

Possible Dates:

Adjacent events:

  • ...


Palm Springs

A potential 2023 IWC in Palm Springs, California!

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Venue: ??

Dates are currently limited to the weekends of 2023-02-19 and 2023-02-25 to coincide with capjamesg's visit. James could do the following week, if weekdays are preferred.

Anthony Ciccarello has indicated he's open to carpooling for those coming from nearby cities. Would be driving up I-215 and passing through Moreno Valley.

Interested in participating!

Possible Dates:


Providence

Main article: Providence

Venue: ???

Can help co-organize:

Previously (~2016) said could help co-organize:

Interested in participating!

IndieWeb meetup Interested


Seattle

IWC:Sea

Venue: ???

Co-organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Previously (2017?) said they could co-organize, maybe reach out to see if they're still interested?

Interested in participating!


Possible dates:

  • Adjacent to SeaGL maybe? When are the dates this year?
  • ...


Sweden

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating!


Toronto

Venue:

Organized by: ???

Interested in participating:


Vancouver BC

Venue: unknown

Who is interested in participating?

Possible dates:

Adjacent:

  • ...


Vienna

Venue: Possibly TU Wien

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Interested in participating:


Washington DC

Venue: TBD

Possible venues?

  • School of Advanced International Studies (suggested in the past by Chris Aldrich, will need to determine if this is still an option.
  • Greg McVerry has some connections with potential venues

Organized by:

Can help co-organize:

Previous people that offered to co-organize:

Interested in participating!

Possible dates:

  • ...


And more

Australia, Central/South America, Spain/France, and more! If you are interested in additional locations, create a new section similar to above.

  • ...


Help Out

Want to help out with one of those? Say something in IRC and add yourself to the page.

David Shanske is willing to help out with an IndieWebCamp, providing support and planning to the extent possible. This would include some volunteering. Depends on what is needed and when and is willing to try to work with anyone who needs help in the Northeastern United States, and possibly farther afield if sufficient notice.

Organize

Organize a camp

Want to organize an IndieWebCamp in your town and don't see it above?

Learn how to do that here: IndieWebCamp Organizing.

Organize a club meetup

Having trouble finding a co-organizer for your city or unsure how to organize an IndieWebCamp by yourself?

Start a Homebrew Website Club chapter with a meetup in your city to gather interested individuals and gauge interest in a full weekend IndieWebCamp!

FAQ

Creator camp not a hackathon

Q: Is IndieWebCamp a hackathon?

A: IndieWebCamps are creator camps focused on helping everyone develop, grow, and advance their personal indieweb presence.

The term "hackathon" has become to mean some sort of short term event where a group of people come up with a typically new project to develop just for the sake of the hackathon, often in a competitive environment, and often for prizes donated by one or more sponsors.

IndieWebCamp resembles that only in the aspect of group collaboration.

  • IndieWebCamp encourages you to work on and improve your existing personal site, not just a new site (unless you need a new site!)
  • IndieWebCamp encourages you to work on your personal site in a way that encourages longevity and your personal use beyond the camp itself.
  • IndieWebCamp focuses on collaboration instead of competition. There are all sorts of different experts at IndieWebCamp and we do our best to both ask questions of each other and help each other!
  • The prize(s) you win at IndieWebCamp are your own improved personal website, hopefully with new features you can then use day-to-day after the camp has completed!

As we do "hack" on stuff (our own websites), IndieWebCamps do have a "hack day" component of it, but certainly not "hackathon" in the commonly understood "corporate hackathon" sense.

Past Planning Notes

Past planning notes can be found on each event's planning page, e.g.

To archive planning notes from this page:

  1. Add the event to IndieWebCamps if it isn't there already
  2. Add the event sub-page "Planning" if it doesn't exist yet, e.g. 2017/Planning
  3. Add a section == Initial Planning == to the event's Planning page
  4. Add a note in the new section "This is an archive of the initial planning for [event name], originally found here."
  5. Link the text "originally found here" to the latest, to an absolute URL of the specific revision of this page where the notes last appeared, fragment linked to the city section.
  6. Copy/paste the latest planning notes from this page
  7. Remove the now-archived planning notes from this page.

Past Camp Schedules

Schedule
2011/Schedule
2012/Schedule
2012/UK/Schedule
2013/Hollywood
2013/Schedule
2013/UK/Schedule
2014/Schedule
2014/Schedule/Berlin
2014/SF/Schedule
2014/UK/Schedule
2015/Germany/Schedule
2015/Schedule
2016/Berlin/Schedule
2016/Brighton/Schedule
2016/Düsseldorf/Schedule
2016/LA/Schedule
2016/MIT/Schedule
2016/MIT2/Schedule
2016/Nuremberg/Schedule
2016/NYC/Schedule
2016/NYC2/Schedule
2016/Schedule
2017/Austin/Schedule
2017/Bellingham/Schedule
2017/Berlin/Schedule
2017/Dortmund/Schedule
2017/Düsseldorf/Schedule
2017/Nuremberg/Schedule
2017/NYC/Schedule
2017/Schedule
2018/Baltimore/Sessions
2018/Berlin/Sessions
2018/Düsseldorf/Schedule
2018/Nuremberg/Sessions
2018/NYC/Sessions
2018/Schedule
2018/SF/Schedule
2019/Amsterdam/Schedule
2019/Austin/Schedule
2019/Berlin/Schedule
2019/Berlin2/Schedule
2019/Brighton/Schedule
2019/Düsseldorf/Schedule
2019/New Haven/Schedule
2019/NYC/Schedule
2019/Online/Schedule
2019/Schedule
2019/SF/Schedule
2019/Utrecht/Schedule
2020/Austin/Schedule
2020/East/Schedule
2020/Online/Schedule
2020/Pop-ups/Schedule
2020/West/Schedule
2022/Berlin/Schedule
2022/Düsseldorf/Schedule
2023/Nuremberg/Schedule
2023/SD/Schedule
2024/Berlin/Schedule


IndieWebCamps
2024 Brighton • Düsseldorf • Portland • Berlin • San Diego • Planning More Camps & Popups • …
Build a Website in an Hour March (P)
2023 Nuremberg • San Diego
Create Day November (O) • CreateFest December (O)
Multi-Lingual Personal Websites (P) • Build a Website in an Hour July (P) • Build a Website in an Hour September (P)
2022 Düsseldorf • Berlin
Create Day March (O) • July (O) • September (O) • December (O)
Analog Meets Online (P) • Personal Libraries (P) • How to Make the IndieWeb More Approachable (P)
2021 Düsseldorf
Create Day July (O) • October (O) • December (O)
Respectful Responses (P) • Webmentions Beyond Webmention.io (P) • Very Sensitive Data (P) • Microsub (P) • IndieAuth (P) • Gardens and Streams II (P) • IndieAuth 2 (P)
2020 Austin
Online • London (O) • West (O) • East (O) • Create Day (O)
Garden & Stream (P) • Micropub (P) • IndieAuth (P) • Get Started with WP (P) • microformats2 (P) • Friendly WP Themes (P)
2019 Austin • New Haven • Berlin • Düsseldorf • Utrecht • 9th IndieWeb Summit (Portland) • Amsterdam • Oxford • NYC • Brighton • Berlin2 • SF
Online
2018 Baltimore • Düsseldorf • 8th IndieWeb Summit (Portland) • SF • Oxford • NYC • Nürnberg • Berlin
2017 Bellingham • Düsseldorf • Nürnberg • 7th IndieWeb Summit (Portland) • Istanbul • NYC • Berlin • Austin
2016 NYC • MIT • Nürnberg • Düsseldorf • 6th IndieWeb Summit (Portland) • NYC2 • Brighton • LA (Santa Monica) • Berlin • MIT2
2015 Cambridge MA • Germany (Düsseldorf) • Portland & Brighton (5th Summit) • Edinburgh • MIT • SF
2014 SF • NYC • Portland/NYC/Berlin (4th Summit) • UK (Brighton) • Cambridge MA • Online
2013 Portland (3rd Summit) • UK (Brighton) • Hollywood
2012 Portland (2nd Summit) • UK (Brighton)
2011 Portland (Summit)


See Also

Retrieved from "https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Planning&oldid=98439"